Polymorph: Melding Gear and items that aren't worn on the body


Rules Questions


from the CRB:
"When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. "

I'm wondering if gear that you don't "wear" should still meld into your form. In particular, I'm wondering about Ioun Stones, Dancing Weapons, Animated Shields and Flying Carpets.

I can see the pros and cons of both sides of this. If your Ioun Stones merge, they become better protected. If your flying carpet merges, you can still fly (overland flight is a constant bonus) but you don't risk being knocked off. The carpet merging seems especially silly.

As written "all of your gear melds into your body". It would be clearer if it said something like "All worn items meld". Obviously if you drop a sword on the ground, it doesn't meld into your form, but a Dancing Sword or Animated Shield isn't quite out of your possession, but it isn't fully in your grasp or touching you either.

Thoughts, opinions, maybe a developer who wants to weigh in? Lets hear it.


I would say, ioun stones aren't worn, but they'd still be hovering around your head giving your bonus regardless of your shape so it doesn't matter really. The only real issue to that is if you are trying to disguise yourself, so you'd want to stow them prior to changing if that were the case.

Dancing weapons and shields... If it isn't in your possesion it wouldn't be worn or wielded, so wouldn't merge. The down side of that is, when the effect says go back you/your hand, if you don't have one (a hand) it ends up on the ground. Possibly a great way to lose an expensive piece of gear.

A flying carpet is something you ride, not something you wear so I'm just going to go with a "no, it doesn't allow you to fly when merged" for the sake of simplicity.


I....will pretty much just echo Skylancer's post above me. Spot on mano.

+1


Skylancer4 wrote:

I would say, ioun stones aren't worn, but they'd still be hovering around your head giving your bonus regardless of your shape so it doesn't matter really. The only real issue to that is if you are trying to disguise yourself, so you'd want to stow them prior to changing if that were the case.

Dancing weapons and shields... If it isn't in your possesion it wouldn't be worn or wielded, so wouldn't merge. The down side of that is, when the effect says go back you/your hand, if you don't have one (a hand) it ends up on the ground. Possibly a great way to lose an expensive piece of gear.

A flying carpet is something you ride, not something you wear so I'm just going to go with a "no, it doesn't allow you to fly when merged" for the sake of simplicity.

Actually you don't "ride" a flying carpet, as in the rules for the ride skill. It works like Overland Flight, you must take an action to move using your fly speed, with the added bonus that other creatures could "ride along". Its an iffy item, but based on reading a few Flying Carpet threads, that's my reading.

Anyway, I agree with the general opinion you've both voiced, but I wonder if any other rules or situations would give precedence or support for the interpretation.


It is an item you unroll and stand/sit on, it isn't something you are wearing which is what polymorph effects are worries about. It might not be "riding a mount" "riding" but it isn't a hoverpack of magical flying you wear.

You could unroll it, shape change and then go on it with your new form and use it. Its activation might not be the standard "standard action to use", but it is still something that you need to "use" and doesn't give its benefit if it were rolled up and tied to your back. Those are the items that polymorph allows you to gain the effects of. Worn, non activated continuous use items. Flying carpet requires some set up, and specific conditions to use, so wouldn't fall under that umbrella.


Skylancer4 wrote:

It is an item you unroll and stand/sit on, it isn't something you are wearing which is what polymorph effects are worries about. It might not be "riding a mount" "riding" but it isn't a hoverpack of magical flying you wear.

You could unroll it, shape change and then go on it with your new form and use it. Its activation might not be the standard "standard action to use", but it is still something that you need to "use" and doesn't give its benefit if it were rolled up and tied to your back. Those are the items that polymorph allows you to gain the effects of. Worn, non activated continuous use items. Flying carpet requires some set up, and specific conditions to use, so wouldn't fall under that umbrella.

Well, I don't want to derail this thread with discussions of flying carpets, but I don't think you're correctly characterizing how the flying carpet works. Check out this post sumarazing a conversation between RavingDork and James Jacobs

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ouin?Carpet-of-Flying-Pounce#5

A flying carpet gives you a fly speed, like you had cast Fly or Overland Flight on yourself. It is not a mount, it is not a vehicle. It is a constant bonus, it doesn't need any activation. If it were to merge when polymorphed (which I'm not sure it should) you would maintain your ability to fly.

BACK to the question at hand about polymorph and item merging, the closest scenario I can think of is being turned to stone. A petrified creature's gear is also petrified, though one wonders if that should apply to ioun stones, animated weapons and flying carpets.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

"All of your gear melds into your body"

I assume that it means all your gear melds into your form, including items that held, worn and floating above your head.

You could potentially drop an Ioun Stone, polymorph and put it back up.

As for the flying carpet and polymorph...that would be just neat. Would you fly like you are standing on the carpet? I can see polymorphing into an Earth Elemental with a flying carpet and flying around like M Bison.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm of the opinion that "all your gear" means all your gear. If it is considered attended for the purposes of targeting and what not at the time of polymorphing, than it is part of your gear and gets melded.

Nardoz Zardoz wrote:
Skylancer4 wrote:

It is an item you unroll and stand/sit on, it isn't something you are wearing which is what polymorph effects are worries about. It might not be "riding a mount" "riding" but it isn't a hoverpack of magical flying you wear.

You could unroll it, shape change and then go on it with your new form and use it. Its activation might not be the standard "standard action to use", but it is still something that you need to "use" and doesn't give its benefit if it were rolled up and tied to your back. Those are the items that polymorph allows you to gain the effects of. Worn, non activated continuous use items. Flying carpet requires some set up, and specific conditions to use, so wouldn't fall under that umbrella.

Well, I don't want to derail this thread with discussions of flying carpets, but I don't think you're correctly characterizing how the flying carpet works. Check out this post sumarazing a conversation between RavingDork and James Jacobs

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ouin?Carpet-of-Flying-Pounce#5

A flying carpet gives you a fly speed, like you had cast Fly or Overland Flight on yourself. It is not a mount, it is not a vehicle. It is a constant bonus, it doesn't need any activation. If it were to merge when polymorphed (which I'm not sure it should) you would maintain your ability to fly.

Man! Totally ninja'd to my own post!


Ravingdork wrote:

I'm of the opinion that "all your gear" means all your gear. If it is considered attended for the purposes of targeting and what not at the time of polymorphing, than it is part of your gear and gets melded.

Yeah, thats the way I and a fellow player are leaning. Ioun stones, animated shields and dancing weapons do meld into you. But a melded flying carpet is beyond silly! Neat way to keep from getting knocked off your carpet, but I suppose you can't take any riders either.

Ravingdork, can you think of anyways I could keep a shield from melding when I use my Tree Form revelation or cast Plant Shape? Beyond removing the shield (move action), dropping it (free), casting poly spell (standard), picking it up (move action?) and donning again (move action)


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Not off the top of my head, Nardoz. You really do need to drop it and then pick it up again, or else have something like a polymorphic pouch to put it in.

I do not believe you can use your carpet while it's melded with you. Magical flight takes as much concentration as walking, which means it takes an action (even if it is the same action as walking) to activate.


Ravingdork wrote:

Not off the top of my head, Nardoz. You really do need to drop it and then pick it up again, or else have something like a polymorphic pouch to put it in.

I do not believe you can use your carpet while it's melded with you. Magical flight takes as much concentration as walking, which means it takes an action (even if it is the same action as walking) to activate.

Hmm, I'd think any item that granted a movement mode would continue to work while polymorphed, so long as you don't need to spend an action to activate it and "turn it on".

take an item like the slippers of spider climbing. I think these still funciton while polymorphed. They require no activation, provide a climb speed, if for a limited number of rounds.

http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Slipper s%20of%20Spider%20Climbing


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's definitely a grey areas I admit.


A flying carpet dose not give you the power of flight. "It" has the power of flight, you just ride it...

You would not say "my magic sword glows, so when I'm polymorphed, I glow"

You only keep what spells and effects on you.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

That's the interpretation I would certainly use, Dr Styx.


Nardoz Zardoz wrote:

Hmm, I'd think any item that granted a movement mode would continue to work while polymorphed, so long as you don't need to spend an action to activate it and "turn it on".

take an item like the slippers of spider climbing. I think these still funciton while polymorphed. They require no activation, provide a climb speed, if for a limited number of rounds.

http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Slipper s%20of%20Spider%20Climbing

After reading the transmutation(polymorph) school, you wouldn't get the movement speed regardless. Strictly speaking, movement rates aren't bonuses and so wouldn't be maintained.

Transmutation/Polymorph wrote:
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function).

As for the ioun stones, they provide a benefit as long as they remain floating around your head. Unlike items in your possession, they don't benefit from your AC or CMD. They have their own AC for purposes of being removed from your use (AC 24). For this reason I would posit they are not actually in your possession for purposes of polymorph effects and melding.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

I will have to disagree Skylancer4. Polymorph subschool is pretty straight forward.

I just can't see the carpet working while polymorphed. Furthermore, since it requires voice commands you can assume that non-speaking forms can't operate it. However, Dire Lion plus Ring of Eloquence plus big flying carpet could make for some interesting pounces.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Taenia wrote:

I will have to disagree Skylancer4. Polymorph subschool is pretty straight forward.

I just can't see the carpet working while polymorphed. Furthermore, since it requires voice commands you can assume that non-speaking forms can't operate it. However, Dire Lion plus Ring of Eloquence plus big flying carpet could make for some interesting pounces.

I also don't think it works post polymorph. You also can't activate any item that melded and you can't speak anyway to activate it unless you have Wild Speech feat or similar.


Taenia wrote:

I will have to disagree Skylancer4. Polymorph subschool is pretty straight forward.

I just can't see the carpet working while polymorphed. Furthermore, since it requires voice commands you can assume that non-speaking forms can't operate it. However, Dire Lion plus Ring of Eloquence plus big flying carpet could make for some interesting pounces.

What are you disagreeing with? My post is all about how even if it was considered to be "worn" as someone else is suggesting, that you wouldn't be able to access its benefit as it isn't a "bonus" which is the only thing that polymorph let's you keep.

If you have read the previous posts, you would see that I am saying it isn't a "worn item", that it is something that you are standing on/mounting/riding on, and so wouldn't meld if you poly'd.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

My apologies, I was referring specifically to Ioun Stones not be in your possession. I count them as gear you have and all your gear merges with Polymorph.


Taenia wrote:
My apologies, I was referring specifically to Ioun Stones not be in your possession. I count them as gear you have and all your gear merges with Polymorph.

The main issue is, technically a horse and cart are gear if you are going by the general definition. So does that mean everything I have as a character melds into the form? If I'm riding on my cart, the cart melds into my new form?

The ioun stones aren't physically touching the character, they are in the general vacinity and the rules for worn gear don't fully encompass them. They have their own AC and can be targeted separately unlike any other worn gear.

I could care less either way, it is just a matter of the rules saying worn gear works some way, and these don't work that way. There is the obviously some difference.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

I again disagree. You have made your point but I don't see how something that is as tied to you as Ioun Stones wouldn't be considered your gear. I assume the stuff you have on you at the time, as listed on your character sheet and currently in your possession constitutes your gear.

I assume it would be pretty obvious what changes with you.

Compare a Galleon of Wine vs. a Gallon of Wine on your sheet (slipped this one past a GM once =))

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The only ioun stone you could keep active would be the one stored in a wayfinder.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

On what grounds do "Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function" not apply to Ioun stones?


My RAW ruling would be as follows: All your gear is merged. done. This includes ioun stones, dancing weapons/shields and flying carpet. What actually continues to function is on a case by case basis. ioun stones: yes. dancing items and flying carpet: no.

Also it is trivially easy to move off the carpet, change and move back on. So the carpet example is a bit contrived imo.

This is an extremely niche situation though. How often has anyone (PCs or enemies) actually attacked an ioun stone? Never in any of my games. Or been polymorphed while using a dancing anything?

my 2cp


Taenia wrote:

I again disagree. You have made your point but I don't see how something that is as tied to you as Ioun Stones wouldn't be considered your gear. I assume the stuff you have on you at the time, as listed on your character sheet and currently in your possession constitutes your gear.

I assume it would be pretty obvious what changes with you.

Compare a Galleon of Wine vs. a Gallon of Wine on your sheet (slipped this one past a GM once =))

I'm not arguing it isn't your gear, I'm arguing what is or isn't worn. It can be your possession but not on you. It can be your sword being wielded by your friend. Does that change when you switch form? Does the dancing sword that is in your 5x5 square count as in your possession? Does the stone that is flying 3' over your head count as in your possession even though another person can reach over and grab it no matter what defenses you have? Regardless of your CMD (which doesn't stop them from doing so) when it does for every other item that is actually in your possession?

Taenia wrote:
On what grounds do "Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function" not apply to Ioun stones?

If it doesn't change form, it continues to provide it's bonus/benefit regardless would it not? And not all ioun stones provide a "bonus," some provide non numeric benefits which wouldn't continue to function.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

Where does worn come into at all?

I see gear. all of your gear melds into your body

There is no distinction between worn gear and not worn gear, just gear. You seem to be including words that are not in the rule as justification.

Bonuses continue to function is an odd semantic ruling based on a definition of bonuses, I have never seen enforced. Every GM i have seen rules that if the ability is activated, you can't use it, if it is constant it works.

I guess I don't see how you are injecting a word into a description, then defending its RAW status.

As for the dancing sword its easy, are you holding it, it transforms, is it dancing, it doesn't pretty obvious really.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's probably worth noting that many ioun stones have activated abilities and would not function.


Taenia wrote:

Where does worn come into at all?

I see gear. all of your gear melds into your body

There is no distinction between worn gear and not worn gear, just gear. You seem to be including words that are not in the rule as justification.

Bonuses continue to function is an odd semantic ruling based on a definition of bonuses, I have never seen enforced. Every GM i have seen rules that if the ability is activated, you can't use it, if it is constant it works.

I guess I don't see how you are injecting a word into a description, then defending its RAW status.

As for the dancing sword its easy, are you holding it, it transforms, is it dancing, it doesn't pretty obvious really.

So your position is, the horse and cart you have as your gear merges into your new form, got it.

Sovereign Court

heh just drop whatever item you aren't using as a free action. If you need so much to be an eagle wielding your quicken rod...just drop it on the ground before using wildshape or whatever.


Taenia wrote:


As for the dancing sword its easy, are you holding it, it transforms, is it dancing, it doesn't pretty obvious really.

Once the ioun stone is "used" you never have a hand on it, you are never holding it. How is that different from the dancing sword?

What makes your opinion less arbitrary or more RAW than mine in this respect?

There are rules for when people target your gear, opposed rolls, saves etc. The ioun stone doesn't function along those rules that are already established for gear you have on you. There is a RAW difference for my position. I can point to it in the item description.

I doubt we will see a FAQ on this, for the simple reason you can put it in a wayfinder and lose the vulnerability of ioun stones and keep or increase the potency of them (gain additional abilities).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

I disagree with your interpretation. I don't see the differences, other than AC, in the item description.

I appreciate your argument and with further clarification you might be right but I do not think so. I guess we are just going to see this differently.

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