Goblin Squad Member
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War of Towers as it is now is not that far off from being a decent system for engaging in meaningful PvP.
* Obviously it will be much better when instead of just towers we're fighting over varied PoI's each with different effects on the owning settlements, but that's a ways off.
* Defenders should have an advantage and require a smaller force to win a defense, this is currently not the case.
* I'd also like to see an alert system for the defending companies (Ideascale Tower Capture alert). I not sure if I'd want this long-term (once towers change to PoI's) because perhaps people should be able to ninja PoI's if the owning company isn't paying attention. But for now, with it just being towers, and the smaller population of players, the owning group should get an alert.
Do you have any other suggestions for improving War of Towers? What are your thoughts on the current mechanics?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was thinking about how to improve the counter system. Instead of having to rework it, perhaps there could be counters for each company in the vicinity of the tower and it becomes a race to the threshold. Therefore, it is not necessary to keep all of a company out, only have more of your own in longer. This will prompt PvP more I think and only require the current system to be extended as opposed to entirely revamped.
This suggestion should go hand-in-hand with an incentive to defend. If for instance, the defenders counter moved at a slightly faster rate per character, it would not only simulate the fact that towers are defensive positions, but also encourage attempts to defend because it has a higher return.
I could also see a small "defender buff" being justified in light of, again, towers being a "dug-in" defensive position.
Point being, however it is accomplished, the return for effort must be greater for defense than attack, otherwise it will always be more effective to just go take another tower that is undefended than to defend your current holdings.
EDIT: (hence, Spraga's musical (towers) chairs 2.0).)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Point being, however it is accomplished, the return for effort must be greater for defense than attack, otherwise it will always be more effective to just go take another tower that is undefended than to defend your current holdings.
In LOTRO, this is accomplished via NPC defenders assisting in the Keep (Tower) defense. I don't think that strategy seems quite right in PFO. Maybe a "buff" for the defenders? Or traps that can be crafted and added to a tower that can cause damage or debuffs to would be attackers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In LOTRO, this is accomplished via NPC defenders assisting in the Keep (Tower) defense. I don't think that strategy seems quite right in PFO. Maybe a "buff" for the defenders? Or traps that can be crafted and added to a tower that can cause damage or debuffs to would be attackers.
Point being, however it is accomplished, the return for effort must be greater for defense than attack, otherwise it will always be more effective to just go take another tower that is undefended than to defend your current holdings.
I do not know how far along GW is at allowing us to deploy things into the environment, but I think traps and/or temporary (destructable) fortifications would be cool. Image being able to completely block off the access to the tower with spike walls, each only cost 12 yew and 4 maple to craft...has x HP, lasts y minutes, and is gone once destroyed. Smaller walls could be deployed (such as around the rim of the tower platform) that only provide limited missile weapon cover.
Then of course, remember that either side can deploy these...
...fun, fun...
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My suggestion: Either just remove a s+@$ton of towers (very drastic) or arrange for a "the more, the merrier" approach. In other words, make it so people can always use more towers. This will serve as a wonderful incentive to risk troublesome PvP. Right now, it sounds like there's a certain number of towers that's useful, and beyond that it becomes largely redundant.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My suggestion: Either just remove a s#*+ton of towers (very drastic) or arrange for a "the more, the merrier" approach. In other words, make it so people can always use more towers. This will serve as a wonderful incentive to risk troublesome PvP. Right now, it sounds like there's a certain number of towers that's useful, and beyond that it becomes largely redundant.
The redundancy point will increase if War of Towers lasts long enough for anyone to reach Tier 3. (Hopefully it won't.)
For the moment, taking towers is easier than holding them, so taking them whenever possible should offset each settlement's losses each day. (Assuming enough settlements think that way, and most settlements start losing towers every day.)
What happens if multiple attacking companies stand in a tower? For instance, say you have a four-man adventuring party hanging out there, each member from a different settlement. Do they each start their own meter, and the first one to enter wins? Or what?
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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What happens if multiple attacking companies stand in a tower? For instance, say you have a four-man adventuring party hanging out there, each member from a different settlement. Do they each start their own meter, and the first one to enter wins? Or what?
Exactly that. Every company scores points independently.
Todo: test a perfect tie.
My thoughts exactly.
What would be awesome would be to be able to set a simple "Just Visiting" flag. While wearing this flag (and it'd have a cooldown after dropping it, delaying your ability to capture), you wouldn't be able to add points for your company. It would not in any way affect your availability for PvP. This would enable people to witness as well as help their allies.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My thoughts exactly.
What would be awesome would be to be able to set a simple "Just Visiting" flag. While wearing this flag (and it'd have a cooldown after dropping it, delaying your ability to capture), you wouldn't be able to add points for your company. It would not in any way affect your availability for PvP. This would enable people to witness as well as help their allies.
I think the point accrual should only be allowed to occur by one company at a time, the first to start the "capture". If somebody else wants to come and capture they should have to overthrow the previous would be captors. This would also make it easy for allies to help without a need for a just visiting flag.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There are two easy ways to help without a Just Visiting flag:
1) Use bows, staff cantrips, the longest range orisons, and grenades from just outside the capture zone.
2) Stand between the resurrection shrine and the tower with a melee weapon. (Note: This doesn't have to mean "camp the shrine", but there really isn't much distance between them.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Any change should be simple to implement and need to avoid issues of misuse. Defenders can't score points as that allows 20 campers to close down 20 towers 83 minutes into the PvP window. This would give the defender too much of an advantage.
It says 'capture' a tower so
A) each defender inside a tower subtracts 2 points per 5 seconds from the score of any attacker.
B) there is some notification in the holding window
The tech should be there for A). This should hopefully only add a few extra lines of code / exemption handling / changed algorithm,
There is also a tower list in b) that updates when a tower is taken. Indicating a tower under attack should be possible. A little bit more work likely but no novel tech needed.
The 2 points for defenders would take into account an advantage for the defender. 5 naked campers still will take a tower from a single defender. And a dedicated attacker will throw out the defender.
But it means the attacker actually needs to win and not draw to take a tower. At the moment you could even lose (slightly) and still take a tower.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was thinking the same thing with the defenders subtracting points from attackers. It makes sense. I don't know if defenders should have a bonus though. Just because they currently own the towers shouldn't make them any better at holding it.
It's the responsibility of an attacking group to gather the troops needed for an assault just as it the defending parties responsibility to gather enough to defend. They should be on even ground, with the winner laying claim to the spot. Even groups of assaulters and defenders should have to really fight for it regardless of who's it is at the time.
Defenders already have the advantage of declaring when their PvP window will be and it is likely that they have reinforcements closer than the assaulters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In addition to killing the naked jihadists where they spawn, you also have to patrol the rest of the towers at least a little bit to make sure that they didn't get into those towers.
Do you want naked tower captures? Because that's how we get naked tower captures.
I think you should have to at least break a door down first!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Don't forget WoT is only a short term thing until "The Cataclysm". I don't think GW will be exerting much effort on the mechanics of a transitory game feature.
As to how long this period of the game will last, who knows, but I hope it will not be too long and we can get on with the important job of actually (re)building our settlements sooner rather than later.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is long enough to have some programmer spend an hour of his time while it lasts.
This is more involved as a tweak of a table that the designer can do. But it shouldn't be too bad.
2Ravenlute:
About the defender bonus. I took this from the battle of Baron's Folly.
There was no real defender (yet). But Emerald Lodge was inside. We got thrown out when we were around 780. Brighthaven then managed to keep us away but could not reduce our number.
They got up to around 300 when we had a breakthrough and threw them out.
The defender has the advantage takes the following into account:
The attacker has the initial advantage. He has his troops lined up. He can plan the assault. He should be able to throw out any defender - or he goes in unnoticed.
This gives the defender a limited time to gather troops. 5 people will gain 600 points in 10 minutes. 10 minutes is likely how long it takes to gather troops and arrive - unless it is straight at your doorstep.
So the defender needs the advantage to overcome the points accrued in this time. The important parts - at the moment attackers only lose if they are completely out of the tower and it doesn't matter if there is anyone in the tower of 30 defenders in the tower - they lose the same amount of points.
A 2:1 ratio for me seems right as the attacker has the advantage to chose time and place. It could be finetuned - but 1:1 would be a large improvement but in my view not good enough.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have an idea for towers.
Firstly, when your PVP window first opens, a tower guard spawns on the tower. This is a red NPC mob that stands on the platform.
He does not attack anyone standing near the tower but if you climb the stairs in an attempt to claim the tower he attacks.
Once the NPC guard dies, a hex wide announcement (you could also have an announcement in the settlement or game wide) goes out informing all that the tower is under attack. At this time the tower can be captured like normal.
Notes:
Instead of the PVP window opening for a specified time and then closing, this time instead indicates the duration before another tower guard spawns. the towers you have the less defenders you have to assign, this is indicated by a longer timer window.
The intent is to deter 1 player captures and actually promote team PVP. Your most likely going to need 2 people to deal with the NPC guard. Since his death gives out an announcement your less likely to leave 1 person holding it especially if the respawn window of the guard means another will spawn before the 80 mins is up.
This system could continue to be used for POIs in the future and improvements to defenders and announcements could be created at settlements "barracks".
I like the idea of additional defenses mentioned earlier and could see things like wizard portals linked to players. those with the teleport spell could jump to the portal. Summoning circles could be used from nearby settlements to instantly respond instead of running.
Second suggestion on the announcement - perhaps there could be some warning tied to the company window - how about listing a holding in red and flagging it as "under attack". to highlight this simply have the icon on the bar change to red (in a similar way your bag changes color when your encumbered)
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Goblin Squad Member
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1. Defenders should subtract points when they are in tower, even if it's at 1/3 what attackers score. I understand GW wants an offensive flavor to WoT, but defense needs to stand a chance
2. More players.
3. Signals for defenders when tower attacked.
That's about it. I wouldn't want to see too much programming go into something this temporary.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm getting the impression that setting the windows works fine, but if you take a new tower, it shows next server up as the window time. Whether it really means that, or gets changed to the proper window at next server up, I can't say.
It's been doing this for a while, and consistently updates correctly to the new owner's PvP Window after server reset.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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What if the attacker had to do something costly to start getting points, and repeat the expense if there were ever no attackers in the zone?
That would be better for a poi thing; the attacker has to set up a flag to attack, and the defender can win by taking the attackers' flags.
I know Darkfall did something similar, and now I understand why.
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Goblin Squad Member
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1. Defenders should subtract points when they are in tower, even if it's at 1/3 what attackers score. I understand GW wants an offensive flavor to WoT, but defense needs to stand a chance
2. More players.
3. Signals for defenders when tower attacked.
That's about it. I wouldn't want to see too much programming go into something this temporary.
Although towers are temporary, a lot of the mechanics we're talking about here would be re-used for PoI's. The items you have in your list should be easy implementations, I hope they are able to do something.