Published AP Rebalancing Question

[Saldiven]

I've been a GM for 30+ years, but only in Pathfinder for the last few. Usually, I run home-brew worlds/campaigns, but there are several of the published adventure paths that I find really interesting.

However, our play group really, really prefers the 25 point buy system (they like the big numbers), and I know this is much higher than the initial character power level that the AP's have in mind. I fear this will lead to encounters being too easy, and therefor not being rewarding enough for the players. (From my past in running home-brew, the big, main fights would often last 10+ rounds with every character fearing death, though only very rarely actually experiencing it. I guess I've trained the group to have a degree of concern going into major combats, and I fear they'll be disappointed if combats are too easy.)

Am I accurate in fearing that the AP combats will be too easy for a 25 point buy group? If so, what is the best way to adjust AP encounters to account for the stronger party and give an experience that has a strong enough challenge to give a successful party the sense of accomplishment they want when overcoming the obstacles?

(I've read a good bit on guides for adjusting encounters for additional players, and I have a good grasp of that. I'm more interested in how to adjust encounters when each individual character is stronger than the norm.)

[Lavawight]

My group uses some of the more powerful rolling methods for stats, and many encounters are indeed easy for them, particularly because of one that is strongly optimized for massive dpr. The main thing I have done to scale up the challenge is simply maximizing the hit points on every enemy. My players know and approve of this because they like the challenge.
Other than that, there are plenty of horrible things in the APs to throw at even high powered groups. In Serpent's Skull, disease and poison were a major issue, and one particular encounter in the second book would have been a guaranteed TPK if I hadn't held back.
I recommend playing a few sessions to get a feel for how the AP works for your group's composition and power level. From what I've read, some APs are pretty brutally difficult even with generous rolls or high point buy.

[Eltacolibre]

Depend of the AP really, being powerful doesn't help in some situations, like if your players think they can overcome every obstacles with brute strength, they might be in for a rude awakening. It might actually even becomes a weakness to them "Hey look it's a group of hellknights...let's fight them!" (level 1 or 2 party)

One tpk later...

We salute you brave adventurers for your sacrifice.

I ran AP with players with high point buy/high ability scores, I have seen them die like they were nothing from mistakes they made.

[Drogos]

Maximizing HPs and adding a mook or two typically is all that is needed in most encounters. How much of the above you do really does depend on the AP and how much system mastery your players have.

[Saldiven]

So, it appears I'll need to go by feel in the early stages of whichever AP I'm running, and then adjust as necessary?

As an FYI, I'm looking at Iron Gods right now, as that one seems quite intriguing to me. It seems like it would feel like a grittier Final Fantasy style adventure with the mix of magic and technology.

[j b 200]

another option is to just adjust numbers on the fly. Your PCs don't know of the monster has 25 or 55hp, so if it seems like an encounter is going to end too soon, just add in a few hp or ignore all damage for a round or two.

[TwoWolves]

25 point buy isn't overpowering unless they want it to be. I'm running RotRL now with characters built on 25 points, and instead of playing SAD (Single Attribute Dependant) hyper-optimized characters, they all have slightly better secondary stats. The REAL determinant is the number of players. Four players at 25pt buy are probably ok, but 5+ will require some tinkering. Keeping them a level behind the suggested level works, as does increasing HP to max and/or adding 1-2 extra mooks. Also, don't be afraid to optimize the NPCs and change tactics/items to suit your party.

[Saldiven]

I appreciate the information. I'm glad to know it won't take complete re-tinkering to make it work.

[roguerouge]

I'd also use the Advanced template liberally. It's easy to do on the fly, adjusts everything including saves and DCs

[Thanael]

here's a nice thread about using mythic rules to boost APs.

[Mathius]

I have found boss encounters in APs to be trivial so far. To often then are a 1 vs many fight. A boss needs mooks and if a caster I have him start buffing as soon as he knows the PCs are in the building.

[Saldiven]

Mathius wrote:

I have found boss encounters in APs to be trivial so far. To often then are a 1 vs many fight. A boss needs mooks and if a caster I have him start buffing as soon as he knows the PCs are in the building.

Oh, definitely. I always run encounters with an appropriate level of intelligence. I get frustrated when I play in games where the GM runs the encounter like an MMO where the opponents have some sort of agro-range or something, or act like the encounters have absolutely nothing to do besides sit in their assigned location until the party shows up.

[Devilkiller]

I agree that putting the Advanced template on monsters would help cancel out the advantage PCs gain from higher ability scores. Another thing you could try is simply reducing treasure a bit. That's probably a little harder on martial PCs than casters, but it would certainly tone down the party's power a little. I'm not saying you should make the party go adventure naked, just maybe keep them a level or two behind in wealth.