Inspired by this thread, the following is a first attempt to create a system that allows rogues to use traps as a class feature. It tries to find a middle ground between the trap rules from the CRB (which obviously weren't meant to be a player option) and the ranger traps from UM (which are too oversimplified for my taste). Trap Pool is meant as an additional class feature the rogue gains at first level.
There are a lot of variables to be considered. I'm especially worried that the option to raise the perception/save DC's makes the traps too powerful at higher levels. Please let me know what you think and feel free to point out any inconsistencies or possible balance issues.
|
This is an awesome start.
I like how you have Trap Pool synergize with Sneak Attack, and how you have incorporated different skills. Brilliant.
Two things that stuck out immediately to me are that the trap takes a whole 10 rounds to set up, making it non-viable as a combat option, and that the trap inflicts damage equal to a single dice plus half rogue level, which seems a little wonky to me.
What about set up a number or full-round actions equal to base cost?
Also, I think that instead of using the rogue's BAB, the trapmaker should be able to substitute their ranks in Craft for BAB and add their INT to the attack roll, with the option to use any iterative attacks for 1 additional point. It might be worthwhile to have the Weapon Traps simply use the base statistics for the weapon (example Spear 1d8 x3 P) as their damage too. Or Slashing Trap (1d8, x19), Piercing Trap (1d8, x3), Bludgeoning Trap (1d10, x2)?
I think that by 5th level, the rogue ought to be able to transfer her rogue talents which modify sneak attack through her traps. Maybe as a 1 point mod. Advanced Trap Strike?
You should have a manual trigger option too - a readied action (or immediate action)? Similar to the location trigger but allows for selective triggering.
Finally, allay your fears about this "becoming out-of-hand" because spells will always be faster and superior.
Thanks, those are some great suggestions!
What about set up a number or full-round actions equal to base cost?
I can do that, though I would presume that setting up traps is something a rogue does out of combat. One minute already is an awfully short time span to set up a trap and hide it from possible onlookers.
Also, I think that instead of using the rogue's BAB, the trapmaker should be able to substitute their ranks in Craft for BAB and add their INT to the attack roll, with the option to use any iterative attacks for 1 additional point.
Using the Craft (traps) Skill as an attack bonus is somewhat unprecedented, but I'll think about it. I agree that the trap's attack bonus is a bit low at the moment. Not sure about the iterative attacks though - I'd rather separate traps from the standard full-attack routine (especially since there is an option for area attacks).
It might be worthwhile to have the Weapon Traps simply use the base statistics for the weapon (example Spear 1d8 x3 P) as their damage too. Or Slashing Trap (1d8, x19), Piercing Trap (1d8, x3), Bludgeoning Trap (1d10, x2)?
Sounds good. I wonder if it's necessary at all to differentiate between melee and ranged attacks. It doesn't seem to matter that much for traps, aside from certain defensive abilities (deflect arrows).
I think that by 5th level, the rogue ought to be able to transfer her rogue talents which modify sneak attack through her traps. Maybe as a 1 point mod. Advanced Trap Strike?
You should have a manual trigger option too - a readied action (or immediate action)? Similar to the location trigger but allows for selective triggering.
Those seem like obvious additions (though not all rogue talents make sense in this context).
Finally, allay your fears about this "becoming out-of-hand" because spells will always be faster and superior.
I don't follow that school of thought (caster-martial-discrepancy), however, I'm not so much worried about boosting the rogue than being a sloppy designer. My first write-up did not require the rogue to provide the necessary spell for magical traps, but then he would have trodden on the caster's toes. I think the current version works much better, because it encourages both to work together to create something they could not achieve on their own.
I implemented most of the suggested changes and added some rogue talents to complement this system. While the required setup time remains the same, quick trapsmith now allows the rogue to set up simple traps as a full-round action.
Any ideas for additional schematics/modifications/talents? I considered pit traps/ avalanches/ cave-ins, but these simply don't fit into a system built on portable traps.
Revisiting this idea after a while for a project I'm currently working on, which may include a similar mechanic.
My goal is to create a feature that expands the use of mundane crafting skills, allowing skill-focused classes to create certain single-use magic/tech items. It would rely on crafting schematics that can be used once all skill requirements are met, similar to the mechanics I used for this idea.
Please let me know whether you think this approach is worth pursuing.
Sorry for taking so long to get around to this. I've looked over the doc on three occasions now, and in many cases where I have had a criticism I can't actually think of a better way to do it.
I have mixed feelings about slapping on such an elaborate class feature for free, although I understand why you did so.. If you made it a rogue talent, the rogue could pick it up as early as 2nd level.
TRAP MODS
Manual: Being within 30 feet seems odd to me. If anything, I would make manual a +0 variant of "location" where a character pulls a level or whatnot, and "remote manual" a +1 mod where the trigger is activated by a rope, spell, ball rolling down a ramp, etc.
Sound: A flat +15 seems unimaginative. Perhaps a Perception bonus that scales with level?
Timed: I see nothing indicating rounds, minutes, days, years, etc. Is there any chance of failure if the rogue tries to get too precise?
Area Effect: It might be worth expanding on this. Depending on the source of harm, it could be a burst, emanation, column, etc. If it's a cube instead of a radius, there could be some complication when the traps origin is important. Also, does the rogue choose a square or a corner between squares?
Poisoned: I would actually require that the rogue provide the poison, since poison is so incredibly difficult for any other PC to pull off.
BASIC TRAPS
I would add some kind of low cost alchemical trap, so the rogue can use some of those alchemical items (thunderstone, alchemist fire, tanglefoot bag).
Sorry for taking so long to get around to this. I've looked over the doc on three occasions now, and in many cases where I have had a criticism I can't actually think of a better way to do it.
I have mixed feelings about slapping on such an elaborate class feature for free, although I understand why you did so.. If you made it a rogue talent, the rogue could pick it up as early as 2nd level.
TRAP MODS
Manual: Being within 30 feet seems odd to me. If anything, I would make manual a +0 variant of "location" where a character pulls a level or whatnot, and "remote manual" a +1 mod where the trigger is activated by a rope, spell, ball rolling down a ramp, etc.Sound: A flat +15 seems unimaginative. Perhaps a Perception bonus that scales with level?
Timed: I see nothing indicating rounds, minutes, days, years, etc. Is there any chance of failure if the rogue tries to get too precise?
Area Effect: It might be worth expanding on this. Depending on the source of harm, it could be a burst, emanation, column, etc. If it's a cube instead of a radius, there could be some complication when the traps origin is important. Also, does the rogue choose a square or a corner between squares?
Poisoned: I would actually require that the rogue provide the poison, since poison is so incredibly difficult for any other PC to pull off.
BASIC TRAPS
I would add some kind of low cost alchemical trap, so the rogue can use some of those alchemical items (thunderstone, alchemist fire, tanglefoot bag).
There are certainly elements that could be improved and these are some good suggestions.
I'm mostly interested in adapting this system for a future project focusing on 'vestimancy' (or fashion magic). Something that requires no magical abilities and that anyone with the Master Craftsman feat and a broad set of skills could accomplish. It would include a variety of different schematics for clothing/shoes/accessories with more specific and less customizable/scaling effects than here.
You could do the trap part of trapper ranger and lower sneak attack to every 3rd or 4th level. That would be fast and efficient. No huge add ons needed and the maths all done for you.
Unfortunately, the ranger traps don't scale well, which makes this a really bad player option, and they can't be customized, which is why I came up with this system. For my vestimancy system, I'll make sure to create a mechanic that is more simple and intuitive.
Now I realize I probably should have made a new thread.
You're right of course--what I meant was that damage-dealing traps don't scale well. Also, the DCs are too low for Perception/Disable Device checks (granted, it won't matter in situations where monsters chase the PC through a trapped corridor, but if I use an NPC trapper against the party, I'd like to have DCs that scale with skill bonuses).
It's great that your group enjoys the trapper ranger. I think it is a decent (and somewhat undervalued) archetype and some traps (freezing trap, snare trap) are really good. However, the launch trap feature is beyond my imagination and I also find the full-round action to set a trap implausible (as a concession to gameplay, it's understandable, but still).
Interesting suggestion with the eldritch poisoner. It has a smart take on scaling poison effects. I guess one could work out something similar with traps.
When I wrote this, I wasn't worried about giving the core rogue a new feature. But if one wanted to operate within the established boundaries of game balance, making an archetype or a series of rogue talents would probably be the way to go.