TWF'ing


Advice


Every time I run a campaign I try a new rule out. One of my next experiments is to change the TWF'ing rules do they take up two less feats. I was going to do this by allowing the two weapon fighting feat to scale automatically based on your BAB.

So at BAB of +6 you get your second offhand attack, and at a BAB of +11 you get the third off hand attack. However I wanted to also know if anyone else has tried this, and has it caused any problem?

Does anyone see any potential problems?


Still keeping the dexterity requirement or no?

I would say the more likely outcome is more consistent hits and, therefore, higher damage, the likelihood of other feats such as Two-Weapon Rend and Two-Weapon Defense. So, yeah, overall higher damage output.


Uwotm8 wrote:

Still keeping the dexterity requirement or no?

I would say the more likely outcome is more consistent hits and, therefore, higher damage, the likelihood of other feats such as Two-Weapon Rend and Two-Weapon Defense. So, yeah, overall higher damage output.

Yeah the dex requirement remains.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I think its nice, it frees up 2 feat slots for builds, normally a scaling feat with this big of a benefit has a down side (like Power attack), but with the Dex requirement(some like their Str builds even tho Slashing Grace makes almost any Dex build possible)and the fact that each additional off-hand attack is less likely to hit already seems like a fair trade off.

I would love to see how this works out if its something I can convince my GM to do in the next game we play.


wraithstrike wrote:
Uwotm8 wrote:

Still keeping the dexterity requirement or no?

I would say the more likely outcome is more consistent hits and, therefore, higher damage, the likelihood of other feats such as Two-Weapon Rend and Two-Weapon Defense. So, yeah, overall higher damage output.

Yeah the dex requirement remains.

So if they want the -7 attack, they will need 17 DEX, and for the -12 attack, they will need 19 DEX?

I suppose that is fine. Still troublesome enough that it takes a bit of effort. It makes rangers less appealing though, since they have less major feats to spend for their combat style (after ITWF and Rend, the rest are hardly worth it). Slayers are fine, since they can just get other nice talents.


lemeres wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Uwotm8 wrote:

Still keeping the dexterity requirement or no?

I would say the more likely outcome is more consistent hits and, therefore, higher damage, the likelihood of other feats such as Two-Weapon Rend and Two-Weapon Defense. So, yeah, overall higher damage output.

Yeah the dex requirement remains.

So if they want the -7 attack, they will need 17 DEX, and for the -12 attack, they will need 19 DEX?

I suppose that is fine. Still troublesome enough that it takes a bit of effort. It makes rangers less appealing though, since they have less major feats to spend for their combat style (after ITWF and Rend, the rest are hardly worth it). Slayers are fine, since they can just get other nice talents.

Thanks for the reminder.

I thought about the ranger issue a while ago, but i had forgotten about it until now.
I was considering making a feat to that allow the ranger(actually any class) to move and get two attacks at his secondary attack bonuses at level 6 so basically -7(-2 TWF and -5 for second iterative attack),-7.

That penalty is not set in stone however.

I still need an idea for the 10th level list. The current idea is to allow you to use two weapon rend 2 additional times per round. That would also be another feat that other classes would need to qualify for. If the ranger for whatever reason does not take two-weapon rend then he is treated as if he has two weapon rend. Why anyone would skip TWR, I don't know, but there is always that one player.<---I just made that up so I have no idea of how it will balance out. I am thinking it will increase DPR by a pretty good amount so I might remove and come up with something that gives more options instead.


Another thing you could do would be to allow double slice to give full strength AND power attack damage on the offhand. Currently, it only does str.

This change is not unheard of either- monks and brawlers already get it . It is one of their key mechanical advantages (which gets buried under the other stuff for monks). Admittedly, that advantages is overshadowed when you consider the fact that they also get 1.5x power attack when 2handing in a flurry. That is a much more obvious advantage.

Anyway, it is a nice little power boost that has already proven it is not over powered. As a 6th level style feat, it fits in nicely between TWF and Two Weapon Rend, and it comes right in time for the ranger to have 2 attacks that benefit from it. For the level 14 and 18 feats...well, those were always slim pickings. We are just looking at 2-10 here since those are the key ones that affect gameplay.


I don't see this affecting Rangers that much, as they are not great at TWF even if they take that style. Currently only fighters get enough feats to twf. This just opens up the possibility to other classes.


Why keep the Dex requirements? The style itself has enough built-in negatives that it's never really going to compete with 2H style, even with the additional feats like TWR.
I'd keep the initial Dex 13 requirement (mostly for flavor) and just forgo the higher Dex requirements.

To the initial question, combining the TWF line into a single, scaling feat is totally fine. Not broken at all. Heck, not even bent.

Scarab Sages

What about monks and brawlers? This takes away much of the benefit of flurry.


FoB is still "free" in the sense that it doesn't cost you a feat. It also allows for more freedom of attack choices than traditional TWF does. (Flurry - Hands are bound? No problem. TWF - Offhand was disarmed/sundered? Too bad, no more TWF for you.)


He makes a good point. Monks can flurry with pelvic thrusts if they feel like it, there's still a lot of advantages to Monks vs. regular TWF.


Neo2151 wrote:
FoB is still "free" in the sense that it doesn't cost you a feat. It also allows for more freedom of attack choices than traditional TWF does. (Flurry - Hands are bound? No problem. TWF - Offhand was disarmed/sundered? Too bad, no more TWF for you.)

Well, that is more of an unarmed thing than just a monk thing. A ranger could just as easily do this if he took improved unarmed strike.

And with pummeling style, it is actually something worth considering now. The prerequisites come in a bit later for non-monks/brawlers, but it still provides a way to get through DR and a pounce like option at the level range where most of the common pounce options come up.

Heck, rangers are probably the best choice for doing this. Since Pummeling style gets rid of the DR problem (mostly by spreading it over your whole full attack, turning DR/20 into DR/3), they can actually skip the amulet of mighty fists in favor for spells like greater magical fang or weapon. Since the ranger can cast that spell themselves, they don't have to both other party members to cast it (which might come down to buying a pearl of power to bribe them)

Silver Crusade

DominusMegadeus wrote:
He makes a good point. Monks can flurry with pelvic thrusts if they feel like it, there's still a lot of advantages to Monks vs. regular TWF.

My former martial arts instructor once KOd me with her shoulder strike. She also knocked me around a lot with hip checks. She's currently a 6th degree black belt. So the thing of a monk flurrying with pelvic thrusts is not unrealistic :-)

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