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I have seen other threads but they are dated and I want to get what the modern school of thought is on such matter's (along with clarification). I'm playing a Saurian Druid and I want to make sure I'm understanding how things work during Dinosaur Time.
For the following questions, assume this:
"I have successfully grappled someone, they didn't escape during their turn. I then successfully make my grapple check to hold the grapple during my turn."
My questions are as follows:
1) When does rake activate, is it a free action to take the rake action immediately upon the successful check to maintain the grapple or do I have to do another action first?
2) If it activates during one of the grapple actions (damage, move, pin, tie up) does it have to be the damage action or does something like moving trigger it too?
3) Does the rake ability do automatic damage when using it or is it an attack(s)?
4) If it is an attack do the grapple penalties apply on the attack roll?
Okay, think that's it for rake. Now for Grab:
5) If I successfully grapple someone on the first attack of a full-round attack, can I continue to make all of my attacks for the round, with the penalties of the grappled condition?
6) Upon successfully maintaining the grapple, does the grab ability automatically deal the natural attack's damage?
7) Could I, with both rake and grab, deal: grab damage + rake damage + "damage action" damage?
To better illustrate my questions (and train of thought), here is my current reading of things (assume the grab and rake abilities):
-If you successfully maintain the grapple you automatically deal the grab damage from the natural attack used to make the grapple.
-Then as a free action (requiring no more conditions) you can make a rake attack(s) against them, these are free attack actions that incur the grapple penalties.
-Then you can choose to follow up with using the "damage action" to deal the damage of the natural attack or do something else, like move them towards your friends.
Don't feel like you have to answer each individual question, holistic responses are appreciated too.
Thanks in advance!
-Jim
First, the Grab +Rake rules are vague and in need of clarification. What I am posting below will be how many run it.
1) When you maintain the grapple. There is not another action to perform.
Note: there is an opposing school of thought that states you perform the rake before maintaining the check and thus do not need to maintain while raking. (I disagree with this as it seems to be cheesy and against RAI.)
2) There is no data stating which maintain choice you use when raking.
Many believe it should be part of the Maintain-attack option which would mesh well with Grab stating that you are doing damage when you maintain a Grab (see answer #7).
3) It is an attack roll.
4) Yes, however those grapple attack penalties are offset by the grapple Dex penalties on the defender's side unless you are a Dex build (dont be a grappling dex build).
5) Yes, there is nothing in the rules stopping you from attacking while grappling except for action economy. You have your full attack action already. The maintain check (ie: standard action) is next round.
Sidenote: With sufficient grapple feats it is possible to maintain grapple as a move action and then make a full attack if you have something like a Quick Runner's Shirt.
6) Yes, that is part of the normal grapple rules.
7) No, while not stated explicitly the Grab attack is basically the "damage action" portion of Maintain.
Note: there is an opposing school of thought that says you get to damage twice. However, most GMs will find this to be cheesy and will probably say no.
Again, Grab is a bit poorly written as it meshes with the Grapple rules. Approaching it from a "Grapple rules" POV will usually produce the best results.
Rake has no interaction with Grab. There are two circumstances in which you can activate Rake; when you start your turn grappled, or when you Pounce. Neither involve Grab in any way.
To Rake you make your (usually) 2 claw attacks as stated in the creature's entry. If you hit you do damage like any other attack.
Grab is simply a free grapple attempt if the attack with that ability hits. If you Grab with your first attack you still get to complete your full attack sequence. Further Grab abilities are useless however.
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Thanks for the responses (sorry for the delay).
@Gauss
I agree it seems cheesy to do two set's of damage, I will probably ask my GM about, but will assume that no damage twice. I still feel like there is a pretty strong precedence in the rules with the way the grab and constrict abilities are juxtaposed within the "Grab" description.
-shrugs- it is definitely not well written.
Now following the "no damage twice" rule, does it also follow that if you're using the Grab ability you can't choose to do another one of the actions presented when grappling? I ask because when I read grab it suggests that the damage is automatic upon holding the grapple (I also feel like it would be pretty ridicules not to have an option). I guess my confusion is that when I read the ability it seems to act like the damage being done is it's own separate entity that exists outside of any other rules which is confusing me.
It seems like this would follow under the similar argument as with not being able to damage twice since if your able to do grab damage and then move something, what's to stop you from just taking the damage action again?
@Thorin,
Your right, I probably mislabeled this, I didn't mean to suggest that they are related in any intrinsic way (other than both being relevant when grappling is concerned).
You say that further Grab abilities are useless but what if, after you "grabbed" one opponent you started attacking another, is there anything stopping you from grappling 2 or more opponent's in the same turn using different limbs?
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You say that further Grab abilities are useless but what if, after you "grabbed" one opponent you started attacking another, is there anything stopping you from grappling 2 or more opponent's in the same turn using different limbs?
Rather large critters can choose to suffer a -20 to their grapple check to not gain the grappled condition themselves. Off the top of my head I'm not sure if that's a universal option for grapple or if it's only explicitly available to certain critters.
Even if it is a universally available option, there's the rules issue of throwing two grapples at once. They require standard actions to initiate, and you only ever get one. It's probably within the bounds of reason to allow two grapples as a full round action if at least one of them takes the -20 (and perhaps adding two weapon fighting penalties to boot) but RAW IS LAW types might give headaches over that stretch to include a new sort of standard action under full attacks.
You may want to print out the Grapple flow diagram from the PFSRD, then update it to incorporate the Grab, Pounce and Rake universal monster rules. Given your interest, having a handy reference you can review with the GM can help address questions or points of contention before the play session starts.
1) When does rake activate, is it a free action to take the rake action immediately upon the successful check to maintain the grapple or do I have to do another action first?
Rake activates when (a) you are successful in maintaining a grapple – this is an extra attack with die roll in addition to the auto-damage for the attack that started the grapple. Or (b) on a Pounce, for a creature with Pounce, a Rake is an extra attack to which you are entitled. In both cases you have to roll for the to-hit, no auto-damage.
2) If it activates during one of the grapple actions (damage, move, pin, tie up) does it have to be the damage action or does something like moving trigger it too?
It activates when you maintain the grapple and choose to do damage – not when you start the grapple. At the beginning of the round, if your target has the grappled condition because of you, then you get the extra rake attacks with your auto damage. You don’t get to have a full attack plus rakes, just a single auto-damage attack as part of the standard action to maintain the grapple, together with the rake(s) which are rolls to hit. If you choose to do a Move, Pin or Tie Up action instead of Damage, you don’t get the free Rake attacks.
3) Does the rake ability do automatic damage when using it or is it an attack(s)?
It does not do automatic damage. It is a special extra free attack that occurs only when you start the turn grappled and maintain the grapple as a standard action, or you add it to your other attacks during a pounce.
4) If it is an attack do the grapple penalties apply on the attack roll?
Normally both attacker & defender gain the Grappled condition. In that case, the to-hit penalty and the dexterity penalty cancel each other out. For grab, you can choose to take a -20 to not also gain the grappled condition. In this case, you would not get the attack roll penalties for your rake attack, but the defender would take the Dexterity penalty.
Okay, think that's it for rake. Now for Grab:
5) If I successfully grapple someone on the first attack of a full-round attack, can I continue to make all of my attacks for the round, with the penalties of the grappled condition?
Yes, you can continue with your attacks. The target’s DX penalty offsets the attacker’s ATK penalty. It is the act of maintaining the grapple that costs a Standard Action, not initiating one. So on the first round that you attack, you can get up to your normal natural attack number of attempts to grapple free if all those attacks have the Grab capability.
6) Upon successfully maintaining the grapple, does the grab ability automatically deal the natural attack's damage?
From the Grab rules: If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold.
So if you are a Dire Tiger, with Bite/Claw/Claw/Rake/Rake, and your first round attack was Bite-Grab successful grapple, Claw/Claw/Rake/Rake, then next round, you would not have to roll for the Bite, it would apply damage automatically. Note that maintaining the grapple is a standard action, so no other attacks other than the auto-damage from the attack that initiated the grapple are allowed. You can get around this with a Natural Attack build by releasing your grapple as a free action, then doing a full attack with the expectation that one of your attacks will reinitiate the grappled condition – but in that case you do not do auto-damage, as you aren’t using the standard action to maintain the grapple. And it’s very difficult to qualify for charge immediately after releasing a grapple, as you usually don’t have 10’ between you and your just released foe, so you can’t pounce, so rakes don’t come into play.
RAW you only have one successful grapple in a round against a target. Having been successful, there’s no mechanism to allow 2nd & subsequent grapples in the same round. That said, your GM might allow a house rule where creatures with multiple Grab attacks can during their initial attack make another grapple attempt with each natural attack beyond the first that established the grapple – then get auto-damage for each of those attacks with the standard action for maintaining the grapple on subsequent rounds.
7) Could I, with both rake and grab, deal: grab damage + rake damage + "damage action" damage?
Rake adds extra attacks with to-hit rolls & potential extra damage. But I don’t see you getting Grab plus Damage Action damage. My interpretation is that they are one and the same.
Thanks for the responses (sorry for the delay).
@Gauss
I agree it seems cheesy to do two set's of damage, I will probably ask my GM about, but will assume that no damage twice. I still feel like there is a pretty strong precedence in the rules with the way the grab and constrict abilities are juxtaposed within the "Grab" description.
-shrugs- it is definitely not well written.Now following the "no damage twice" rule, does it also follow that if you're using the Grab ability you can't choose to do another one of the actions presented when grappling? I ask because when I read grab it suggests that the damage is automatic upon holding the grapple (I also feel like it would be pretty ridicules not to have an option). I guess my confusion is that when I read the ability it seems to act like the damage being done is it's own separate entity that exists outside of any other rules which is confusing me.
It seems like this would follow under the similar argument as with not being able to damage twice since if your able to do grab damage and then move something, what's to stop you from just taking the damage action again?
One of the things to understand here is that Grab was written for critters who generally wouldn't even consider other options.
The problem is when you give Grab to a PC. Then options present themselves that the rules were not initially formatted for.
Here is how I run Grab (not exactly RAW since RAW is so badly written):
Initial round:
1) Attack
2) If you hit, make Grab (grapple) check.
3) If Grab check was successful then apply constrict damage.
4) Repeat 1 and 2 as needed for other attacks.
Maintenance round:
5) Maintenance check with +5 bonus (subsequent round) and +4 bonus (Grab ability).
If successful you get choice of maintenance option (should default to damage as per Grab rules but if you have a good reason for another option then I see no problem with doing that instead).
If you have constrict then success also results in Constrict damage.
If you have rake attacks and maintained successfully then Perform rake attacks.
The main place I depart from RAW is allowing people to use other options besides damage when maintaining a Grab based grapple check.
Note: people misread the portion of Grab where it states you do not do damage if you constrict. That portion applies only to the '-20 grab' option.
Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).
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Keep in mind that it is possible if you go for the catch and release method of grappling for someone to ready an action as soon as you drop the grapple, giving them a potential free action to escape or attack.
Grappling is one of the most effective anti-caster strategies out there, forcing concentration checks for all Spells and SLAs of 10 + CMB + Spell Level, and with the right build that becomes almost impossible. Releasing a grapple can allow them to get a readied spell off and potentially escape.
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Then why would you EVER maintain a grapple?
Also, armor doesn't affect CMD. Nor does small size. (well, not in a way that is good for the small creature.)
Several times with my grab/constrict eidolon I have had opponents where I only hit on an 18, but I maintain grapple on a 5. In which case I would much rather hold and squeeze even if it means I don't get off my full attack chain.