6-09 By way of bloodcove

[thistledown]

Just played through last night. Generally fine, but the choice of Ungala or Cartahegen really bothered me. It was presented as "the party must choose one or the other". But we had 3 characters with very good diplomacy, and the fact that we weren't allowed to hammer out some kind of deal that kept both sides helping the society was very frustrating. Diplomacy shouldn't have binary choices like this.

[Senko]

thistledown wrote:

Just played through last night. Generally fine, but the choice of Ungala or Cartahegen really bothered me. It was presented as "the party must choose one or the other". But we had 3 characters with very good diplomacy, and the fact that we weren't allowed to hammer out some kind of deal that kept both sides helping the society was very frustrating. Diplomacy shouldn't have binary choices like this.

I agree it does seem like something especially given the backstory where a deal should be possible to hammer out.

On another note (and something I've made a thread about) having the party needing a specific item in order to complete the main mission of finding out what the expeditions about and no alternatives seems like poor planning. Our group were going fine till we realized we had no way to progress without that item and just walked away from the table without even bothering to do the final battle because we felt there was no point.

[Drogon]

I have to admit that the thought of a group not having a Wafinder didn't even cross my mind when I read the scenario. They're just too ubiquitous for that to have registered to me. And, sure enough, my group had half a dozen at their disposal (there were six players, for reference).

It's a 500 gp item (250 if you're at a lodge). Bloodcove would have them available for purchase. I'd tag its purchase with an awareness cost, as well, however. I've spent far more cash in an effort to successfully complete a mission, and not even gotten to keep whatever it was that I was buying.

Also: try not to make separate threads for questions like that. It clutters up the boards and makes it hard for things to be searched easily. These GM threads will always get your questions answered. And if you want to leave feedback for Paizo's staff, use the review option in the product page.

[John Compton]

Senko wrote:

thistledown wrote:

Just played through last night. Generally fine, but the choice of Ungala or Cartahegen really bothered me. It was presented as "the party must choose one or the other". But we had 3 characters with very good diplomacy, and the fact that we weren't allowed to hammer out some kind of deal that kept both sides helping the society was very frustrating. Diplomacy shouldn't have binary choices like this.

I agree it does seem like something especially given the backstory where a deal should be possible to hammer out.

On another note (and something I've made a thread about) having the party needing a specific item in order to complete the main mission of finding out what the expeditions about and no alternatives seems like poor planning. Our group were going fine till we realized we had no way to progress without that item and just walked away from the table without even bothering to do the final battle because we felt there was no point.

For those interested, here is that other thread and my response. We can continue that conversation there.

[roll4initiative]

Should I do Awareness Checks any time the PCs are walking around town or just between acts? For example: a PC needs to go to the market to purchase an item after act one and the rest of the group goes with. Should I constantly have them make checks if it's "beyond the scope of the adventure"?

[John Compton]

roll4initiative wrote:

Should I do Awareness Checks any time the PCs are walking around town or just between acts? For example: a PC needs to go to the market to purchase an item after act one and the rest of the group goes with. Should I constantly have them make checks if it's "beyond the scope of the adventure"?

Primarily these should only take place between major scenes, but substantial digressions would probably qualify for another check. I wouldn't force a check for small errands like buying more potions.

[roll4initiative]

Ok. Thanks, John. Awareness points could add up significantly by PCs actions moving about Bloodcove. Best to keep it simple by making checks only between acts.

[Drogon]

Remember the game I ran for you, roll4initiative. It's a check that signifies an amount of time, not one for each person who might notice you. You move from one area to the other, and make your check. If you fail you gain awareness points (you bumped into someone who recognizes you, or you use a Society colloquialism by mistake; something like that). It shouldn't be something you make them roll for every time they open their mouths or venture outside. Even doing it between acts it adds up quickly. You saw that.

[roll4initiative]

Ok thanks, Drogon. I'll might have a couple more questions. I'll just ask you before the game. :)

[Dragnmoon]

A questions about this item

By Way of Bloodcove Item:

I am assuming the Hematite Sphere Ioun Stone is a exception to the rule that flawed Ioun Stones can not slotted in a wayfinder?

[Christopher Rowe]

Dragnmoon wrote:

A questions about this item

** spoiler omitted **

Hmmm. I reviewed the rules about this in Seekers of Secrets and took a quick look at the much-abbreviated entry on Wayfinders in the Inner Sea World Guide but can't find the rule you reference, Dragnmoon. Am I just missing it or is it another source?

[DesolateHarmony]

Christopher Rowe wrote:

Dragnmoon wrote:

A questions about this item

** spoiler omitted **

Hmmm. I reviewed the rules about this in Seekers of Secrets and took a quick look at the much-abbreviated entry on Wayfinders in the Inner Sea World Guide but can't find the rule you reference, Dragnmoon. Am I just missing it or is it another source?

Another source: The Pathfinder Society Additional Resources:

Additional Resources wrote:

Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Seekers of Secrets

Everything in this book is legal for play with the following notes. Equipment: ioun stones use method 1 for resonance and never use method 2. Additionally, only normal ioun stones have resonance—inferior ioun stones never do. Advanced ioun stones are not legal for play. Prestige Class: Pathfinder Savants replace the item creation feat prerequisite with Spell Focus.

[Christopher Rowe]

DesolateHarmony wrote:

Another source: The Pathfinder Society Additional Resources:

Additional Resources wrote:

Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Seekers of Secrets

Everything in this book is legal for play with the following notes. Equipment: ioun stones use method 1 for resonance and never use method 2. Additionally, only normal ioun stones have resonance—inferior ioun stones never do. Advanced ioun stones are not legal for play. Prestige Class: Pathfinder Savants replace the item creation feat prerequisite with Spell Focus.

Good catch. But that has to do with resonance, not whether one can be slotted in at all, right?

Seekers of Secrets wrote:

Within each wayfinder is a fine lattice of wire, spun of silver, gold, or even more precious metals. This lattice channels and amplifies the natural energy of the ioun stone, extending its benefits to the owner as long as the wayfinder is held or kept close to the body.

[Dragnmoon]

Christopher Rowe wrote:

Good catch. But that has to do with resonance, not whether one can be slotted in at all, right?

I guess I should have been more specific. Sure you can slot Flawed Ioun Stones, but nothing happens, there are no resonance powers, the flawed ioun stone in this Scenario does give a resonance power.

[Christopher Rowe]

Dragnmoon wrote:

Christopher Rowe wrote:

Good catch. But that has to do with resonance, not whether one can be slotted in at all, right?

I guess I should have been more specific. Sure you can slot Flawed Ioun Stones, but nothing happens, there are no resonance powers, the flawed ioun stone in this Scenario does give a resonance power.

Aha! Hadn't seen that bit yet (or read right over it anyway). Sorry for the confusion.

[trollbill]

Please tell me our GM ran this wrong and there is a mechanic for telling if you are actually failing your Awareness checks. Otherwise this whole Awareness skill challenge is a farce.

Spoiler:

The skill checks are ridiculously high for the number of times you have to make them and get progressively worse with failures making this skill challenge nearly impossible for a party that isn't full of skill monkeys. If we had known how frequently we were failing these checks there are resources we could have burnt to improve are chances.

[Iammars]

There is nothing in the scenario where the GM has to tell you whether or not you've succeeded on your Awareness checks, but they really should be communicating to you the overall effects that it has on the encounters. (Aspis catching on, people starting to not like the PCs, casually dropping hints about what they've done around the city, etc.)

That being said, I question how a DC 14/17 check in one of nine skills (seven of which are common skills) is too high. That's easily in the take 10 range for the majority of characters.

[Monkhound]

Also, if I remember correctly, you only have to make 3 or 4 of such checks.
And although I wouldn't allow to take 10, the DC is quite low, as James pointed out.

[Ilvan bin Ulzef]

thistledown wrote:

Just played through last night. Generally fine, but the choice of Ungala or Cartahegen really bothered me. It was presented as "the party must choose one or the other". But we had 3 characters with very good diplomacy, and the fact that we weren't allowed to hammer out some kind of deal that kept both sides helping the society was very frustrating. Diplomacy shouldn't have binary choices like this.

We had good diplomacy, and:

Spoiler:

Took Ungala to the warehouse that we had rented as a cover, and talked it through. We ended up arranging for her and her tribe to go into business manufacturing "Authentic Mwangi Artefacts", then explained to House Cartahegen that she would no longer need to risk her agent's lives in acquisitions, and instead take large amounts of raw profit in distributions.

Everyone wins!

The Spirit of Freedom. Providing employment and reducing violence. All over the Inner Sea.

[Iammars]

Monkhound wrote:

Also, if I remember correctly, you only have to make 3 or 4 of such checks.

And although I wouldn't allow to take 10, the DC is quite low, as James pointed out.

Why wouldn't you allow Take 10? There's no obvious threat or distractions, which are the only things that stop Taking 10.

[BigNorseWolf]

James McTeague wrote:

Monkhound wrote:

Also, if I remember correctly, you only have to make 3 or 4 of such checks.

And although I wouldn't allow to take 10, the DC is quite low, as James pointed out.

Why wouldn't you allow Take 10? There's no obvious threat or distractions, which are the only things that stop Taking 10.

An entire city full of aspis agents looking to mount your head on a wall can easily be read as an immediate danger.

[thistledown]

Ilvan bin Ulzef wrote:

thistledown wrote:

Just played through last night. Generally fine, but the choice of Ungala or Cartahegen really bothered me. It was presented as "the party must choose one or the other". But we had 3 characters with very good diplomacy, and the fact that we weren't allowed to hammer out some kind of deal that kept both sides helping the society was very frustrating. Diplomacy shouldn't have binary choices like this.

We had good diplomacy, and:

** spoiler omitted **

The Spirit of Freedom. Providing employment and reducing violence. All over the Inner Sea.

You got lucky. Our GM forced us to pick one or the other regardless of diplomacy, because that's how the reporting sheet goes.

[Monkhound]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

James McTeague wrote:

Why wouldn't you allow Take 10? There's no obvious threat or distractions, which are the only things that stop Taking 10.

thistledown wrote:

An entire city full of aspis agents looking to mount your head on a wall can easily be read as an immediate danger.

That exact sentence sums it up quite nicely :)

[Artoo]

Monkhound wrote:

thistledown wrote:

An entire city full of aspis agents looking to mount your head on a wall can easily be read as an immediate danger.

That exact sentence sums it up quite nicely :)

I think the word immediate (which is also in the actual text for take 10) is pretty important there. If you're going to make that kind of ruling do you just deny take 10 all the time? It's a big dangerous world. There's always something somewhere that could harm you. Maybe you'll have a heart attack any second! Who knows?

[BigNorseWolf]

Artoo wrote:

Monkhound wrote:

thistledown wrote:

An entire city full of aspis agents looking to mount your head on a wall can easily be read as an immediate danger.

That exact sentence sums it up quite nicely :)

I think the word immediate (which is also in the actual text for take 10) is pretty important there. If you're going to make that kind of ruling do you just deny take 10 all the time? It's a big dangerous world. There's always something somewhere that could harm you. Maybe you'll have a heart attack any second! Who knows?

That kind of hyperbole is disingenuous, and a large part of why people groan when you try to take 10.

[trollbill]

James McTeague wrote:

There is nothing in the scenario where the GM has to tell you whether or not you've succeeded on your Awareness checks, but they really should be communicating to you the overall effects that it has on the encounters. (Aspis catching on, people starting to not like the PCs, casually dropping hints about what they've done around the city, etc.)

That being said, I question how a DC 14/17 check in one of nine skills (seven of which are common skills) is too high. That's easily in the take 10 range for the majority of characters.

Spoiler:

As explained by our GM after the fact, it is only a 17 at high tier if you did not mix & match methods, which means it isn't 7 common skills, it is only two if you don't want a DC 19. Unfortunately, when the GM was describing what methods we could use, he used the words "more complicated" rather than the word "harder" to describe what happened when you mixed methods. We had a 6th level Alchemist, a 6th Level Fighter, a 5th Level Ranger and a 5th Level Investigator. The initial bonuses to our checks were +7, +8, +9 and +11(+1d6). We took 10 assuming those would be good enough for a check that had to be made regularly (I am pretty sure we had to do it 5 or 6 times each). That meant 2 of us were auto-failing from the beginning and the +9 auto-failed after we accumulated enough points to increase the DC. I asked the GM during play if we could tell if we were succeeding after the first check but he said there wasn't anything in the module that said you could. He may have allowed a Sense Motive check (I remember rolling one early but rolled lousy with a +9) but I don't recall what exactly it was for.

We didn't discover we had failed until the final encounter. Albeit, even without Ledford's bigger brother, I am not sure if we would have defeated the 9th Level Wizard after he won initiative and hit us with a DC 19 Confusion spell that only 1 of us saved against AFTER we all used our rerolls.

[andreww]

Spoiler:

The Confusion DC should only be 18 and you should only normally be making checks to remain inconspicuous when you first arrive and when you begin to pursue any of the 3 objectives.

The four player adjustment for this scenario is pretty bogus. The end boss loses very little of his offensive firepower, he just loses a few of his spells and he can still cast them if he wants using arcane bond.

Even is he doesn't do that he can still throw back to back 9d6 fireballs which is pretty much a death sentence for any level 3-4's and many higher level characters.

I left the group I ran it for lying dead on the river bank, one escaped with the macguffin using flight leaving the rest bleeding out and he had no reason to leave them alive. That was also with playing very softball, he took about 3 rounds before a fireball, threw magic missiles at someone with shield up and threatened the second fireball for several rounds allowing the sorcerer a chance to ready to disrupt with magic missile. Even so they were 5 players at APL5 and therefore forced to play up with the 4 player adjustment.

He offered to let them live if they handed it over but they didn't believe him thinking he would betray them if they did.

[trollbill]

andreww wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

Oh, our GM was soft-balling, too (especially since we never even saw the Fireball). Which might have saved the one PC who got away (after being turned into a squirrel).

[Monkhound]

I personally found the encounter with Na'alu to be fair and fun.

trollbill wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

#6-09 By way of Bloodcove wrote:

Na’alu uses spells to slow the PCs, adjusting his tactics as necessary to counter their strategies and grant the mannequin robot an edge.

There are no tactics in the low tier (which looks more like an editing error) but the high tier tactics state he casts hampering spells and lets his minion do the fighting, which makes for a far more interesting and fun combat than the immediate "Kill it with Fire" option.

Hampering options (Low Tier):
Slow
Stinking Cloud
Glitterdust

Yes, the fireball should come eventually (when the minion dies, for example), but not before the players have had the chance to do something nice.

As an anectode, when I ran it, the Aberrant Bloodrager thought he'd outsmart the encounter by simply storming forward (Expeditious Retreat + Move) to stand next to Na'alu and threaten his spell casting. That proved to be less effective than he expected when he (as well as the rest of the party) failed his saving throw against Slow.

[trollbill]

Monkhound wrote:

I personally found the encounter with Na'alu to be fair and fun.

trollbill wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

Well, he certainly did that. The battle lasted 10 rounds during which he cast (not necessarily in the following order):

Confusion
Stinking Cloud
Baleful Polymorph
Feeblemind
Slow
Glitterdust
Wall of Fire
Scorching Ray
Magic Missile

But really, it was the Confusion before we got a chance to act that did us in as it greatly hampered our ability to play smart (or even just retreat).

[Monkhound]

Ah yeah, I see. Ouch :/.

[andreww]

Spoiler:

Yeah, when I ran it at high tier with the 4 player adjustment he opened up with Stinking Cloud which caught about 3 of the 5. Those affected tried moving backwards while one unaffected one pushed forward and the other flew off and threw magic missiles to little effect. I took a good three or four rounds before throwing fireball which pushed several to the brink and then spent a couple of rounds threatening to throw another.

The problem with a barely in the range group playing high tier is that he doesn't lose any caster levels and the DC of his spells doesn't go down. All he loses is access to a couple of level 5 single target removal spells which he could still use if he wanted with his arcane bond.

My group simply couldn't handle him with multiple people out for multiple rounds due to the stinking cloud. It didn't help that they also got a hydra addition to the fight. Although its chance to hit anything was pretty low the group seemed to focus on it as being more dangerous than him at first.

Even running him very softball it still ended up with four dead PC's and one fled with the macguffin

[TheFlyingPhoton]

I was the GM for trollbill's game. I'll lay out some details here.
Several walls of text coming up, so I've broken them up in spoiler tags

The game and me as GM:

The weekly game store game happens Saturday mornings, so I've never shown up with a full night's sleep. By the time the second slot started, I had a really bad hunger/blood sugar drop-induced headache (hence my shoveling all my Chinese takeout down my throat all at once before starting the game), so wondering

trollbill wrote:

Please tell me our GM ran this wrong

is not unfair. In fact, I did make several errors. But the errors I made were in the players' favor.

Awareness Points Mechanic:

Let's start with the Awareness Point mechanic. It's supposed to be a secret mechanic the GM tracks separate from player knowledge, as seen in things like The Library of the Lion and the Bloodcove Disguise from Season 2, which this is a pseudo-sequel to. I ran into an issue with trying to explain the ability to raise the DC in order to reduce the number of accumulated awareness points without explaining awareness points. So I explained that awareness points were a thing without getting into, "Here's the DC, here's how many points you have, here's what happens when you get x, y, and z number of points." Once I explained it, the game stopped being about, "Are we succeeding in hiding our presence from the Aspis?" and became, "How many points do we have?" In retrospect, a better way to explain that would have been to just say that you can significantly raise the DC of the check to take circuitous routes, leave false trails, etc, which is what the scenario says you are doing when you raise the DC. I recommend going for that kind of explanation to future GMs of this scenario to prevent the severe immersion-breaking I had when I ran.

When it came time to pick the alternate skill for the Disguise checks, I said that everyone picking the same Disguise would be the simplest, and I said it only once. The scenario tells you that pretending to be mercenaries was the "simplest" disguise, so that's why I phrased it that way. The difference was, taking the same Disguise prevents the DC from being raised, whereas pretending to be mercenaries means you don't have to go to extraordinary means to maintain the disguise (like stowing weapons), and is the only provided disguise that allows that.

I presented the disguises that are provided in the scenario and the 10 skills that it allows you to make to maintain the disguises, as though the ExpositionNPC were giving you those as a list of possible disguises. I said multiple times that if anyone wanted to use some other skill for the Disguise checks, they can invent their own disguise. No one tried.

The Elf Ranger and Elf Fighter both wanted to use Survival without regard to what they were going to be disguised as. The disguise was pretending to be a Mwangi tribesman looking for work in the city. By the scenario, this disguise is only available to PCs that are actually from the Mwangi Expanse. The Inner Sea World Guide lists the Mwangi Expanse as being a favored region for full elves, so I was willing to allow it, since elves are common to the area. But one was wearing some kind of Eastern armor and the other was wearing Mithral Full-plate. They absolutely refused to take their armor off for traveling about town. They wanted to pretend to be broke tribesmen wearing expensive armor foreign to the area. By the scenario, they would have been unable to make their checks at all. What they were wanting to do would be like someone from India walking around Miami, telling everyone that he's from Atlanta, while wearing lederhosen and a sombrero, and expecting to not be noticed. The ranger in Eastern armor said his was specifically made of horn, so I allowed it. The fighter in full-plate flat out refused to try to do anything about it and didn't want to use any other skill, so I told him I would allow it, but I would give him a penalty. I never applied a penalty to his rolls.

The way the scenario is set up, you get different penalties when you hit different "awareness thresholds" at 5, 10, 15, and 20 awareness points. However, the four player adjustment reduces the required points to 4, 8, 12, and 16, which is the first time I've seen a scenario intentionally increase difficulty in a four player adjustment (as opposed to accidentally, like a young template on a Dex-based creature). When they hit 4, there's a penalty to a list of specific skills, which included skills half of the party was using on awareness disguise checks. When they hit 8, the GM rolls on a table of mooks to add to all remaining combat encounters. The party during our game reached 13 awareness points.

The problem trollbill's party had was one character was taking 10 on a skill he had no ranks in, and the ranger had an even worse bonus to Survival (I think he might have had no ranks in survival, but was adding his ranger bonus and his favored enemy bonus to track to get the number he had, even though I told him no to using those bonuses). And yes, the scenario does not provide the player with any knowledge on how well they're doing on the disguise checks.

The bit about a Sense Motive check toward the beginning of the game was for when the party first arrives at the Witchlight Inn. The party is allowed a Perception or Sense Motive (everyone rolled for both, but no one got the DC) to tell that the waitresses were eavesdropping on customers' conversations. What this would have done was provided a +2 on the next awareness disguise check (but no penalty if you failed). The halfling alchemist asked if he thought he was successful at his first awareness check, so I told him to throw out a Sense Motive (he got a 3). That was the only time attempts were made to verify success at awareness checks. If I were to run this again, I would allow the entire party a Perception or Sense Motive check at every awareness check at the same DC as noticing the eavesdropping waitresses in order to tell if the party was "turning heads" or "getting strange/dirty looks."

Awareness checks were to be made when doing significant travel through the city. This mainly meant the moving between Acts and any significant detours (there were several detours during the game). I kept forgetting to have the party roll awareness checks. There were a few times I was able to make up for failing to have them do a check by having them roll during a non-major travel scene (example: I forgot to have them roll to go to the docks for the sabotage bit, but they took the job to stock the ship, so I had them roll to sneak back in during the midday break instead). Overall, they ended up rolling less awareness checks than they were supposed to.

The Final Battle:

I am a very soft GM. When things go bad or PCs are close to dying, I pull back. So I was going out of my way to try to prevent a party wipe. I hate steamrolling players, and that is what it quickly turned into; I tried pulling back in a way that they could just run away and survive or survive long enough to justify the wizard running away (there was no pulling a full win out of this, which is not what I was going for in pulling back).

The party had three archers (Elf Fighter, Elf Ranger, Halfling Alchemist). The other character was an Investigator 4/Swashbuckler 1 who flat out said his character wasn't combat viable until 7th level and only took the Swashbuckler level because Parry/Riposte kept him from being entirely useless. Knowing this, I adjusted the final encounter. I originally rolled a much more powerful mook, but swapped him out for something easier for them to deal with and whose stats were easier for me to access (phone died).

When it hit the point where two characters were slowed, three were confused, and the non-confused one was feebleminded, I started gutting the tactics. I removed the buffs the players didn't know about. I didn't use the pharmaceuticals they had on them. I allowed the Swashigator to parry opponents that attacked him that he wasn't battle-locked against (which you can't do when confused). I allowed the Feebleminded Alchemist to do things more complicated than 1 Int would allow, to a limit (I didn't allow him to ready to disrupt spellcasting, but did allow him to move around the battlefield for better archering angles, to get away from confused allies, and to jump through a Wall of Fire confident in surviving it). I dropped a Stinking Cloud just to keep them from killing each other and then didn't enforce the nausea once they left the cloud. I threw up a Wall of Fire to get the Wizard out of melee and then dismissed it after one of the PCs fell unconscious adjacent to it. I ended the confusion 3 rounds early. When the only character left was the ranger, I threw out a scorching ray and only added the Wizard's BAB to the attack roll, trying to miss.

The biggest thing that killed everyone was that it was a level 9 wizard with mostly Will-save spells against a party where the highest Will save was +5. When the confusion dropped, everyone that had re-rolls left used them and the highest failed roll was a 16 (I think the Alchemist got a Nat 20).

My Big Screw-up:

There was one major thing I did screw up on. The 4-player adjustment included the wizard already spending his 5th-level spells. So he had to use his Arcane Bond to Feeblemind the Alchemist. During the "Wizard suddenly makes bad choices to save the PCs" phase of the game, I had him cast Baleful Polymorph on the Fighter. He cast a Fort save-or-die spell on a character wearing heavy armor and was already confused. The players figured out the Wizard had Stoneskin up, but none of the archers had adamantine arrows (or adamantine blanch). So he would be forced to try to burn through the Stoneskin while shooting through cover (and the Wizard could focus his attacks on the fighter) if he made the save, and if he failed the save, it would prevent him from getting battle-locked with the ranger he was adjacent to (in retrospect, that fighter was probably not the best choice to cast a Fort spell on and expect to make it; he was a level 6 character with Mithral Full-plate, so he couldn't have had a decent cloak, he took Con damage earlier in the mod that wasn't healed, and I remember he had 8 Con at level 1). The fighter failed the fort save, but made the will save. If I had not cast Baleful Polymorph, I wouldn't have had any other reason to target the fighter. What was left was mostly damaging spells. The next logical thing to do would have been hasting the robot and the mook.

The squirrel fighter ran away after I dropped the confusion early. I allowed the squirrel to drag three dead bodies the 400 miles or so from the outskirts of Bloodcove to the lodge in Nantambu so everyone could be raised without the body recovery cost.

The more and more I look back on it, if I hadn't forgotten the 4-player adjustment the difference would have been that they would have had to spend the 5 prestige for body recovery.

I tried very hard to prevent a party wipe. I failed.

[Muser]

You tried and were very thoughtful of player enjoyment and that's, in my mind,laudable. I've had a similar situation in a few tier 5-9 scenarios, particularly in The Golemworks Incident, and such on the run adjustment is very hard to pull through with. Personally, I've never managed it.

I suggest to let the dice fall where they do next time. Unless the team consists of newbies, of course. They'll cope and the further you adjust the further the scenario moves away from what's written.

When I played this our team in the high tier consisted of two nuke-heavy characters and two very decent party faces so we, iirc, had only two encounters and those encounters were over in a couple of rounds. There was a moment of abject terror though, when the severely optimized blaster sorcerer was confused along with our fighter.

[trollbill]

TheFlyingPhoton wrote:

I was the GM for trollbill's game. I'll lay out some details here.

Several walls of text coming up, so I've broken them up in spoiler tags

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **...

Please note that my comments were never meant as an indictment of your GMing of the adventure. Everyone makes mistakes and I am not sure I have ever run or played in a mod with zero mistakes. Certainly you did look exhausted.

I was really just trying to find out how deadly this mod is. Considering how much you nerfed the final battle (which was even more than I thought you did at the time) it would seem it is very deadly.

Spoiler:

I wasn't feeling that well Saturday either and I wasn't fully paying attention when you were talking to the Fighter and the Ranger. At least not after you said they needed to be Mwangi to pull it off as that should have ended that particular line of thought. I was surprised to later find out it didn't and am baffled as to why they thought it might work. Still, it would have been nice to have been able to go, I don't think this is working guys, let's try something else; instead of, I don't think that worked guys, I guess we are dead (though still not positive we would have lived without the extra mook).

I hate to say it, but I really need to stop counting The Ranger as being a meaningful party member. He seems to spend half of any battle he participates in hitting himself with a CLW wand. It only keeps him alive if the party never really needed him there in the first place.

Thank you, again, for running us.

[Monkhound]

Sounds like a party for which the scenario was not very kind to, TheFlyingPhoton :/

In my opinion, you should not wait for players to ask how well they are doing before allowing them the chance to notice they are failing.

The way I ran the awareness mechanics, both here and in The Bloodcove Disguise, was to ask for occasional perception or sense motive rolls (no need to set a very high difficulty) to notice the PC's are being noticed:
- Heads that disappear around corners,
- Shadows moving in the background,
- The occasional NPC failing to subtly looking away,
- An NPC they need to talk to that acts like he doesn't want to talk to them (looking away slightly afraid perhaps),
- The Street urchin running away.

When Awareness increases you can accentuate this slightly. Having them notice there are people that start looking for them, etc.
That way players can react to the situation and it's basic movie stuff.

[Divvox2]

TheFlyingPhoton wrote:

I was the GM for trollbill's game. I'll lay out some details here.

Several walls of text coming up, so I've broken them up in spoiler tags

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **...

The Final Fight

Spoiler:

Holy cow. I ran through this as a player at a convention a month or two ago, playing up, and while we got hit with confusion, we saved against most other spells and took down the wizard in about 3 rounds (frontliner got to act normally and charged the wizard with an adamantine weapon, battle-locking with the wizard the following rounds). I did not have an appreciation for how pear-shaped that boss fight could have gone until now. o_o

Following Clues

Spoiler:

Beyond that, I really liked the exploration/awareness system this scenario used. I think we got a little too sneaky because we were able to turn the ranger invisible and just followed his animal companion who was sniffing him out while our ranger used his wayfinder to track down each dead drop. I feel like it did allow us to bypass some of the other aspects of the game as we needed to do very little to stay hidden (the party invested in a couple potions/hats of disguise at the start and didn't have trouble making most rolls). I don't think we did the dock work at all.

Aside from my new appreciation for how dangerous this could have been, I really enjoyed the scenario. It does occur to me how much variance can happen in that final fight though with such high saves, especially depending on the party makeup and how prepared they are to handle a prepared wizard. Telling tales of my run through it (in the most general terms of "we fought a 9th level wizard once and it was a close thing, despite a full party of levels 5-7" has become a bit of a tale of caution to new players.

[trollbill]

Divvox2 wrote:

TheFlyingPhoton wrote:

I was the GM for trollbill's game. I'll lay out some details here.

Several walls of text coming up, so I've broken them up in spoiler tags

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **...

The Final Fight

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

How did the front liners charge the Wizard in the first round? He is on the other side of a river with mooks blocking the bridge crossing it?

[Divvox2]

trollbill wrote:

Divvox2 wrote:

TheFlyingPhoton wrote:

I was the GM for trollbill's game. I'll lay out some details here.

Several walls of text coming up, so I've broken them up in spoiler tags

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **...

The Final Fight

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

He had one mook that was standing next to the wizard (am I mixing up scenarios and we played down?). If I'm remembering correctly, we had spotted them (summoner had their eidolon flying about 40/50 feet up) so there wasn't a surprise round, but the wizard rolled a crazy high initiative.

Round 1
The wizard cast confusion and tagged everyone but the Eidolon and its Summoner who was wander off to the side. The summoner went next and hasted the party (hoping some of them would make the percentile and get to act). The Brawler (aformentioned front-liner) went next and got to act freely, charging the mook, but positioning next to the wizard, and (I think) using the attack to disarm the mook. I think he just provoked an AoO from the mook holding a polearm of some kind and the mook missed. The Eidolon dove down and started hacking apart the mook with a greatsword.

Everyone else mauled each other like extras in a confusing action movie.

Round 2
The wizard 5' back and cast a spell at the brawler (I think it was baleful polymorph, we weren't in a position to find out but I learned of the spell list a few days later). The Brawler saved and 5' up then full round beat the ever-living tar out of the wizard while the summoner's eidolon occupied the mook. The mook may have gone down this round because the Eidolon was no joke.

Round 3
Rinse Wash Repeat for the next round and the wizard went down. I think the Eidolon joined in on the wizard beatdown.

[TheFlyingPhoton]

Muser wrote:

I suggest to let the dice fall where they do next time. Unless the team consists of newbies, of course. They'll cope

Like I said, I tend to be soft on the players when I GM, mostly in the form of "The bad guys are doing well? That's when they make poor decisions," in a "A player is conscious and prone at the feet of the 13-Int fighter because he dropped last round and got hit by a channel? The fighter doesn't notice he's back up and attacks someone else instead," sort of way. I don't pull the kind of generosity from this session when I run the higher-level games, just the lower. Though the level of this game was more in the middle of my mercy ranges.

I get the most enjoyment as a GM when the players are doing very well and don't completely realize it. My favorite GMing moment was when the BBEG had 1 or 2 HP left and the player in melee with him decided to Combat Expertise, Fight Defensively, Power Attack, something-something class ability that adds to AC, and then tumble away after the first attack instead of using his iterative so the bad guy couldn't full-attack him. I love that moment when an opponent drops and the entire table sighs in relief and yells, "Finally!"
The table getting stomped and very obviously getting stomped? Not as much fun.

Monkhound wrote:

Sounds like a party for which the scenario was not very kind to, TheFlyingPhoton :/

This party just had a very unlucky party composition and unlucky initiative rolls. The characters weren't even terrible, either, just a lot of overlap in certain party roles and a complete lack of other roles. If one more person did better on the confusion save, or if the Alchemist saved against the feeblemind, then they'd have been fine.

Monkhound wrote:

In my opinion, you should not wait for players to ask how well they are doing before allowing them the chance to notice they are failing.

Yeah, if I were to run this again, I would have them throw out Perception/Sense Motive rolls at every awareness check. The Alchemist asked if he thought he did well on his first one, so I had him throw a Sense Motive on the spot and then didn't have to make up a DC because he rolled so low. After that, people just kept asking whether or not the mod provided the players with any way of knowing how many awareness points they have, so I just didn't think about it after that.

But it wasn't even the awareness points penalty that killed them. The awareness points just became something for them to fixate on. They actually did really well during the entire rest of the mod.

trollbill wrote:

Spoiler:

I hate to say it, but I really need to stop counting The Ranger as being a meaningful party member. He seems to spend half of any battle he participates in hitting himself with a CLW wand. It only keeps him alive if the party never really needed him there in the first place.

Yeah, I have no clue what was going on with that ranger.

[supervillan]

Wow, I played this scenario recently and had no idea the end battle could be so tough.

spoiler:

I won initiative with my Oracle, who does have a high initiative modifier. I hit the wizard with a silence spell correctly assuming he was a caster and he tanked his save. The party's two melees engaged the robot and then the sorcerer hit the remaining mook and the wizard with glitter dust. the wizard failed his save against the glitter dust and was left deaf and blind: he surrendered. He never got to cast a spell and with his one action before getting blinded he tried to hit me with a force punch from a magic ring and missed. The robot was quickly destroyed by our fighter wielding an adamantium bastard sword.

[TriOmegaZero]

Talk about table variation!

[andreww]

supervillan wrote:

Wow, I played this scenario recently and had no idea the end battle could be so tough.

** spoiler omitted **

Silence has a one round cast time, your victory has a bit of an issue.

[supervillan]

andreww wrote:

supervillan wrote:

Wow, I played this scenario recently and had no idea the end battle could be so tough.

** spoiler omitted **

Silence has a one round cast time, your victory has a bit of an issue.

That is something neither I nor our 4 star GM noticed. Looks like a variance from d&d3.5, with which I am much more familiar. Thanks for pointing it out.

[Ascalaphus]

The casting time on Silence surprises just about everyone. It's fair though, otherwise it makes things rather trivial.

---

I just played this yesterday. We all felt kinda nervous about awareness because the GM played things rather close to the chest. After we set some fires we did notice people talking, so we thought we had to get out fast. Turned out we'd only just tripped the first threshold.

The final battle wasn't hard, but mainly because I was playing down with a level 6 investigator. I won initiative, drank Invisibility and was halfway across the bridge before a stinking cloud appeared just behind me. I then spent some time harassing the wizard / tanking the robot while everyone else recovered from the cloud.

[Terminalmancer]

Hrm. Here's a weird one--I'm running this in an hour and on a lark I decided to crack open River Into Darkness, a module that takes place in Bloodcove. Holy crap I had no idea--the town was originally shown as being built on and around one single tree that must be hundreds of feet wide! The map in the scenario is a mess, but it's a different map entirely--it suggests that the town was built among many smaller mangrove trees, at least I think that's what those are supposed to be. I'm mostly curious now--I don't suppose anyone happens to have a link to something talking about whether this was a conscious change or not? Are the Gamemastery modules no longer canon maybe? (I've been able to rely on them before, but that might make more sense here.)

[DM Livgin]

After Action Report:

High tier, 4 players. Paladin 6, Investigator 1/Arcanist 5, Ninja 5, Harsk 7.

Harsk and the Ninja decided to Lay Low with stealth, The Arcanist and Paladin disguised as pirates (+2 circumstance bonus to the Arcanist for an actual Parrot familiar).

Inn was uneventful, a few characters picked up on the server spies and it set the theme that in this town everyone is an informant. Arcanist immediately forget about the spying servers and took a 20 on the bounty as the rest of the group went to work the docks, the player just loved the idea of grabbing another beer and pouring over a riddle.

At the docks the group was fairly sneaky with half the group distracting the guards while half the group messed up the ships.

The group had a wayfinder and had little trouble with the dead drop. except that the Ninja failed to disarm the trap by 5+ and got poisoned.

The wagon ambush was a real challenge as the ranger on the roof took down soft targets and then tried to use an unconscious pathfinder as a hostage: "Leave the cargo and flee with your downed compatriot, or I'll finish them off!" The invisible ninja behind her put an end to that bluff. They turned her into the trade house for justice without waking her up to interrogate.

With only a minor alertness Na'alu was not able to get extra back up, so it was just him and the robot guarding the bridge. Both the Ninja and the Arcanist Vanished and moved forward, everyone was upset when he dropped a stinking cloud at the entrance for the bridge to block their approach, and just 'happened' to catch the Ninja and Arcanist inside of it with his See Invisibility. From there the fight went down hill. Ten rounds later with all of Na'alu's offensive spells spent the Paladin (only standing due to orc ferocity at -Con + 1 HP) managed to put him down (only surviving due to the Welcome to Pathfinder Boon as he lost that last HP). Finally, Harsk, the last one fighting, defeated the robot in single combat.

This scenario really drove home the dangers of save or suck for the group, but rewarded their investment in Pathfinder skills. I really wanted them to get one more awareness point for the additional enemies at the end but in hind sight it is good that they did not. The players also discovered that Harsk is not very good in a fight...