A question about what constitutes a caster level.

[nick nack]

In the rules caster level is synonymous with character level in a spell casting class. But is there another way to get a caster level, like say taking ranks in the spellcraft skill? Spellcraft allows you to learn spells and craft magical, but not cast by itself. So it seems that it would function as a caster level. The reason in my case is not to actually cast spells but to qualify for magical item creation without needing the masters craftsman feat. Essentially so I could save a feat and just make Wondrous Items at level 3 rather than waiting till level 5.

I know a trait called Magical Knack also gives you two caster levels but that in of itself will not allow a character to qualify for the Wondrous Item creation feat unless ranks in spellcraft can count as caster levels.

I am likewise aware multiclassing is an option but I am not considering it since it would not be advantageous vs taking the Master Craftsman feat to qualify for magic item creation feats.

The build I am using is a skill monkey Rogue just for clarification.

[Jeraa]

"Caster levels" are levels in spellcasting classes. Spellcraft ranks are not caster levels.

To craft magic items, you must either be a spellcaster (have levels in a spell-casting class), or the Master Craftsman feat.

[deuxhero]

There are a few magic items that allow you to increase caster level, but using items to qualify has always been very sketchy.

You can also take the toilcrafter trait, but it's really really bad.

[Irontruth]

The problem is you need the feat to make an item. So if you want to make a magic sword, you need to have Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat, which requires 5th level. You can't spoof the feat for item creation. Exception being Craft Construct if you have a Golem Manual.

[wraithstrike]

It depends on the exact context. If you have an SLA your HD often counts as caster levels for that SLA, but it not for other things such as qualifying for prestige classes.

Spellcraft is just a skill. Anyone can take ranks in it. It does not give you caster levels.

Magical trait improves upon your existing caster levels, but it does not give you caster levels on its own.

Quote:

Pick a class when you gain this trait—your caster level in that class gains a +2 trait bonus as long as this bonus doesn’t increase your caster level higher than your current Hit Dice.

As you can see it adds to caster levels in a certain class.

If you are trying to make magical items you need to have actual class levels in a casting class or you have to take the Master Craftsmen feat.

[nick nack]

I see, thanks for being prompt. Poisoner + Master Craftsman route it is. I am trying to optimize as a support character that makes magical items for the party and to enhance assassin skills. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something that would get me magical items faster.

[wraithstrike]

I would also suggest deadly cocktail once you gain access to advance rogue talents.

[nick nack]

wraithstrike wrote:

I would also suggest deadly cocktail once you gain access to advance rogue talents.

Yep, with Master Alchemist it becomes fairly fast to make poisons and with the number of applications possible by a combination of Finesse Rogue, Point Blank Shot, Two Weapon fighting, Swift Poison, and Quick Draw you become Utter Bane of Tarpits. Unless you're fighting undead and outsiders in which case poison is either useless or takes too many applications.

Also I think you could technically used the Master Poisoner archetype feature to take fairly cheap and low DC injury poisons turn them into inhaled poisons and then chuck a flask full of it at somebody, hitting them with multiple doses.

But I only plan on doing something that cheesy if there is a very important target because rule exploitation like that doesn't seem sporting.

[wraithstrike]

That is not cheese, well not in my games anyway, but what is cheese varies from group to group.

[Tom S 820]

Poison is great for GM due the fact it last fight to figh on your PC and that are going to have to live with it. Poison suck as player do to the fact you drop the Boss STR then Wizard cast Fire ball and kills it. Either way the poison target dead at the end of the fight they did not realy feel the pain of the poison/diesase. If you attack bad guy Stat then go after one that effect it saves like CON, DEX, & WIS then have caster you spell that attack that same save.

[Gauss]

Actually, poison in combat is great for a PC. Poison is immediate effect now and each and every round the monster will suffer for it.

IF a wizard is packing fireball consider yourself lucky as fireball is a poor spell now. It's damage is very lackluster. But if poison removes even 2 strength points that is a -1attack penalty for the bad guy. I will happily take that. It means I might not take that bit of damage.

- Gauss

[nick nack]

wraithstrike wrote:

That is not cheese, well not in my games anyway, but what is cheese varies from group to group.

Well poison is comes in 1 ounce doses and a flask holds 12 ounces so for a really cheap low DC poison with an effect that incapacitates like say Blue Whinnis in the Ultimate Equipment book Injury DC 14 1Con/unconcious for 1d3 hours. 12 doses costs 480g to craft and has a DC of 40. Which means pretty much anything that is vulnerable to poison which gets hit with that flask is dead. Even outsiders that have poison resistance will need a Constitution of 35 or higher to have a hope of saving. That is assuming you hit them. For a human target to a have a chance he'd need a Constitution of 50. True 480 bucks is a lot to kill one enemy but that BBEG is going down! Unless he has an amulet of immunity to poison.

As for regular targets, spellcasters other than bards tend to be the main target since they have bad Con. Of course my character has bad Wis since so spells that test against Will are my enemy so it will be a matter of who hits first. I also figure that the cheap Str sapping poisons are good for martial enemies in armor since I can effectively reduce them to the point that they are over-encumbered in about 3 rounds by using a full-attack option to apply 3 or more doses. And for weak targets darts or throwing daggers using Two Weapon fighting allows you to poison multiple enemies at low level were they will be hard pressed to save even a DC 14.

[ProfPotts]

nick nack wrote:

Well poison is comes in 1 ounce doses and a flask holds 12 ounces so for a really cheap low DC poison with an effect that incapacitates like say Blue Whinnis in the Ultimate Equipment book Injury DC 14 1Con/unconcious for 1d3 hours. 12 doses costs 480g to craft and has a DC of 40. Which means pretty much anything that is vulnerable to poison which gets hit with that flask is dead...

Not exactly 'dead'...

Doses of inhaled and ingested poisons stack, but that just increases the save DC and the duration of the effect (and the volume of gas for an inhaled poison), it doesn't stack the actual damage.

So, in your example you've got 12 doses of blue whinnis altered to be an inhaled poison. You throw the flask and the gas fills a 10ft cube per dose... so I hope you're not in an enclosed space! Blue whinnis has a save DC of 14, an extra 11 doses adds +2 DC per dose for +22 DC, or a save DC of 36. Blue whinnis has a standard duration of 2 rounds, and each extra dose increases that duration by half that, or +11 rounds for a total of 13 rounds. The effect, however, doesn't change. So anyone breathing the stuff in (and they can do the old 'hold your breath for a 50% chance to not need to bother saving' trick) tries a DC 36 Fort save, and (we assume) fails. They take the initial effect of 1 Con damage. Frequency is 1/rd, so next round they try the Fort save again and fail... but from here on in they're taking the secondary effect - in this case unconsciousness for 1d3 hours - so they pass out. And that's pretty much it, really.

... So 'dead' in the sense you can run about coup-de-gracing everything in sight, but not dead by the poison itself. Essentially what you've created is knockout gas (which is very cool, by the way!).

To kill stuff you'd be better trying the same trick with greenblood oil - it's cheaper, has a base frequency of 1/rd for 4 rounds, and the only effect is 1 Con damage per save. With an extra 11 doses it'd be DC 35 to save, 1/rd for 26 rounds. That's potentially 26 Con damage... much more likely to actually kill your victims. Although 1 save prevents any further damage in either case.