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Well, really, it's more like a slayer-like druid. I was checking out the Nature Fang druid archetype, and I realized that I really liked the flavor of it. It just seemed a little... lackluster by itself, as cool ability progression stops after about 6th level. (The added Slayer talents are quite sick, though).
Then I remembered that druids can get more sneak attack damage via the Crocodile Domain and realized that I'd finally found a class combo that filled my need for a druid-style rogue, or rogue-style druid, without having to worry about an animal companion, and getting lots of bonus feats and sneak attack, plus of course the full spellcasting.
But I figured, why stop there? If I wanted more combat orientation, I actually can fully qualify for the Gray Warden prestige class by 7th level, which gets me slightly better sneak attack progression, plus the Inquisitor Judgment and Bane abilities, at the loss of a tiny bit of spellcasting progression. It's all pretty freaking cool, imo.
My question is... how do you go about making this great? Now, my first inclination is to go two-weapon fighting for sneak attack, and with the bonus accuracy from Studied Target and Judgment, plus the Bane ability, it might work pretty well. My only problem is that it's feat intensive, but with Slayer Talents I can actually get Improved Two-Weapon Fighting before I even have +6 BAB, lol.
Alternatively, I COULD take the Natural Weapon combat style, which, if I started off as a race with a bite, would give me 3 natural attacks to use. I could even select Multi-Attack and combine it with something like unarmed strikes or Armor Spikes to have a rotation of Weapon/Bite/Claw/Claw. Combine that with spells like Natural Rhythm and Strong Jaw, and I think it's a decent contender.
What are your thoughts? Would I be better of as a Gray Warden, or going straight Nature Fang/Crocodile domain? Is there a better combat style choice?
*Edit: I also forgot to mention the possibility of going Samsaran, as being able to pick up Fate's Favored and Divine Favor would be a pretty significant boost to damage.
No advice, but keen idea!
dotting
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Do you need the extra d6's from sneak attack? What if you had extra d8's from a base attack instead?
Cave Druid->Crystalline Ooze. Don't recall the build exactly but it came to around 12d8 or so. Fairly decent for a natural attack.
I just looked it up. All you'd need is Vital Strike and it'd pump up to 14d8+w/e... Which is cool and all, but one of the things I like about the Nature Fang is that it gives up Wild Shape, which sounds odd, but I've never really liked it. I like added accuracy and damage that the Nature Fang grants the druid while taking away the thing I like least about it. My hope is not that we can make it as good as wild shaping (I know it probably can't be), but to make it a solid, flavorful choice that is still effective.
Ok I'm loving this build, it is an interesting combo. My thoughts on 2 weapon vs natural attack combo is to lean toward the natural attack combo as it is less feat intensive which lets you sneak in some caster goodies like perhaps stranger flanking partners from Augment summoning or maybe even get your AC back with Animal Ally.
Mmm, maybe a lizardfolk Nature Fang druid can be mine next PC...
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It's an interesting archetype. On the one hand wildshape is a cool power and stuff, but on the other it so totally dominates the druid. Armor, mounts, weapons, activated magic items - they're all made half obsolete by wildshape. So in a certain sense wildshape reduces the diversity of druid builds.
Why drop your AC when you have a dedicated flanking buddy?
Instead I would have the AC take Precise Strike; you - and your AC - can have sneak attack while flanking at third level. By the way, that's to every attack by the AC. At level 4 a large Ape with reach is hitting at about a +8 with two claws and a bite. If he's flanking that's a +10 and he's doing 2d6+6 (or +9/ 2d6+8 if Power Attacking) on one hit, while you're probably hitting at a +8 for 2d4+3+2d6 with a Scythe.
There is the slight issue of making the character a little more MAD than normal...
You need Wis for your spells, at least Dex and Con for melee, and if you're truly trying to be a rogue-like replacement you con't dump INT. So you'll have to dump Cha and possibly Str. With a standard druid you can worry a lot less about the physical attributes once you have wildshape...
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Is this for a home game or for PFS? If it's PFS, the Grey Gardener isn't legal for play.
I do think that staying single classed is the best option. I would go with a tengu so that you can have claws and a bite without needing to spend your few talents on them. Naturally if samsaran is available that blows tengu out of the water.
Definitely get Improved Familiar for your lil croc by the way.
Weird bit of synergy
2nd level domain spell savage maw has the bit utility you're expect but can be released for a quick dazzling display effect.
Stern Gaze- add 1/2 class level to intimidate checks
too bad you'll likely be dumping CHA
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More interesting stuff.
Your Caiman familiar is actually Small sized, so it can serve as a dedicated flanking buddy, even if he is a little squishy. A suit of armor should fix that problem for a long time, though.
Also, this druid is only a little MAD. You could easily survive on:
Str 16
Dex 12
Con 13
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 10
If you get a race that gives a bonus to either Strength or Wisdom, then things get even better. If you want to be more Casty, and less focused on dealing direct damage, you could opt for better Dexterity and Wisdom. If you go for my FAVORITE race choice atm (Tiefling for the Bite Attack and PERFECT stats), you get +2 Strength, +2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma, which lets you go 14s across the board in Str, Dex, Con, and Wis. Sure, Charisma is dumped, but w/e. You're the blade of the forest, not the tree-hugger.
More interesting stuff.
Your Caiman familiar is actually Small sized, so it can serve as a dedicated flanking buddy, even if he is a little squishy. A suit of armor should fix that problem for a long time, though.
Also, this druid is only a little MAD. You could easily survive on:
Str 16
Dex 12
Con 13
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 10If you get a race that gives a bonus to either Strength or Wisdom, then things get even better. If you want to be more Casty, and less focused on dealing direct damage, you could opt for better Dexterity and Wisdom. If you go for my FAVORITE race choice atm (Tiefling for the Bite Attack and PERFECT stats), you get +2 Strength, +2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma, which lets you go 14s across the board in Str, Dex, Con, and Wis. Sure, Charisma is dumped, but w/e. You're the blade of the forest, not the tree-hugger.
Oread gets the same stat spread and Acid Resistance 5. Which you can trade in for Nat Armor +1, and nat armor bonuses tend to stack. Also, you can trade in their sorcerer buff for 2 extra rounds on summoned monsters (more flanking buddies).
On the minus side, 20 foot movement speed, and without the dwarf clause.
"That ain't a knife, this is a knife"
Awesome concept.
If you get a race that gives a bonus to either Strength or Wisdom, then things get even better. If you want to be more Casty, and less focused on dealing direct damage, you could opt for better Dexterity and Wisdom. If you go for my FAVORITE race choice atm (Tiefling for the Bite Attack and PERFECT stats), you get +2 Strength, +2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma, which lets you go 14s across the board in Str, Dex, Con, and Wis. Sure, Charisma is dumped, but w/e. You're the blade of the forest, not the tree-hugger.
This build isn't far off from a halfling rogue 3/druid 17 I played except I went eagle domain, used shapeshifting for hawk form, and summoned more hawks to obfuscate which was the druid. It was good times.
I'm playing around with builds on this now, some notes...
-The death roll ability seems like a waste but I don't seem to want to build around it...
-Even dumping Cha getting a reasonable intimidate is not hard
-A dip into cleric for Growth Domain and strength domain seems attractive
-I tend to want my AC back so I might be inclined t pay the feats for it back
-Precise strike seems like a good feat choice
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3 feats to get an animal companion of your level seems pretty reasonable, especially given the benefits this class gets from them. If you're talking about the Animal Ally feat, then both Badger and Small Cat make pretty decent choices due to their multiple attacks (assuming you pick up Precise Strike). Badgers also get a climb and burrow speed, of all things, so they're pretty darn versatile. Plus, since both options are quadrupeds, you can pick up the Evolved Companion feat to get them Pounce... assuming you haven't dumped Charisma. :P
REALLY like Lizardfolk for this as they have:
+2 Str and Con
+2 Nat armor
Swim Speed
2 claw and bite attack out of the box
This has a strong swamp theme already that the lizardman choice reinforces well.
1 feat gets you a 3 attack routine (multi attack)
1 feat to go Improved familiar and go with something like a Mephit or Fairy dragon (Mephit stays viable as a flanker.)
1 feat for Weapon focus claws
Lets you play around a lot more with your feats without really costing you anything. Sink a few points into linguistics though.
Fun fact natural attacks work in place of improved unarmed as a perquisite. Think about some style feats or deflect arrows.
nevermind needing multiattack all three attacks are listed at primary meaning full BAB
nope you're right I double checked for that errata and realized that was incorrect...
Also thank you, I knew I read that somewhere and drove myself nuts looking for it. Might make tengu outperform lizardmen for the build
This is a fun build.
I disagree that it's MAD, you don't need THAT much int, druids get 4/skills a level, and what do you need, Stealth and Perception? Likewise, you don't need loads of Dex either, STR and CON will be enough to beat people down, and some wisdom for spellcasting.
Many of your spells will be attack rolls or cast on you, so you don't need sky-high DCs. You'll be able to simulate a lot of trapfinding/disabling with things like wood shape and stone shape.
Tengu would be a great race for this. Use natural attacks, or use existing proficiency with wakizashis with two-weapon fighting.
dot
I almost made this for a recent homebrew I'm playing in. Never thought of Gray Gardener though, excellent idea.
Wrote this post and credited this thread for this build.
Nat attacks worked out best as none of the nat attack feats are make or break and tengu was too fun to pass up.