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How would you stat out a human fighter wanting to wield a sword and shield and deal str damage with a 15 point buy while eventually working up to Shield Master (requires Improved Shield Bash, Shield Proficiency, Shield Slam, and Two-Weapon Fighting)? We'll be starting at 2nd level.
I was thinking
str: 14 + 2
dex: 15
con: 12
int: 13
wis: 10
cha: 8
human: TWF
1: Improved Shield Bash
fighter 1 bonus feat: Power Attack
2 bf: Combat Expertise
3: Improved Trip
4 bf: Improved Disarm
5:
6 bf: Shield Slam
7: Greater Trip
8 bf:
9:
10 bf:
11: Shield Master
Ideas? This character isn't for me. The basics are what's in the first sentence. The character didn't work exactly for his first iteration so we're letting him tweak it and I want to give suggestions that fit what he was building for. The Combat Expertise was my suggestion. The 13 int and the combat expertise + improved feats are my additions (and the stat array is tweaked from what he had). Multiclassing probably isn't an option, but I'm going to try to convince him to take a first level in brawler and open up Combat Expertise. I'm not sure if the GM will allow that (we're in the army and "monks don't join the army"--though the same was said about druids and I'm a Hunter so it's probably fine). He's a pretty permissive GM so if he wanted to take a level in brawler that'd probably work out.
A build with the first lvl as brawler might look like..
Ability Scores
Str: 16 + 2
Dex: 15
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 7
1st level:
Brawler - Improved Unarmed Strikes for free
Human - Two-Weapon Fighting
Combat Expertise
2nd level:
Fighter Bonus Feat (BF): Improved Shield Bash
3rd level:
Power Attack
BF: Improved Trip (with TWF, trip them with your sword then smack them with your shield which is now easier to hit since they're prone)
5th:
Combat Reflexes (this plus your unarmed strikes will make sure you get to react even while flat-footed)
BF: Improved Bullrush (for the bonus when you get it for free when you hit with Shield Slam)
7th: Vicious stomp
Vicious Stomp (get an AOO when someone falls prone next to you)
Greater Trip (get an AOO when you trip someone)
*so these two give you two free AOOs whenever you trip someone, and you still get the rest of your attacks
9th
Shield Slam
BF: ?
11th:
Shield Mastery
BF: ?
*brawler build has annotations because I already sent him this suggestion and this is copy/pasted from the email
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Fighter is a weak class...only one weaker is rogue.
Ranger/slayer offers- same feats, better saves, more skills, easier point buy spread, more abilities, more options in and out of combat.
The thing they lack- heavy armor proficiency.
Some people get stuck on the names of the class. But mechanically on a 15 point buy you will see better performance out of the Ranger/slayer....the player will also have more fun with the added options.
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But as far as you first fighter build.
Drop combat expertise...your dumping con too low to get 13 int.
You already have power attack...pick up bull rush and greater bull rush.
Remember you can push any monster around....you cant trip or disarm everything.
anything that fly or has multiple legs are near impossible to trip.
natural attackers dont have anything to disarm.
Claude, what you seem to be looking for is a character that is good with a sword and shield.
That's not the fighter.
Shield and sword are in different weapon groups, and weapon spec doesn't cross over. Too, the best feat for this combination is Shield master, which you have to wait 11 levels for.
With a Ranger, you can get Shield Master at 6. 6! 5 levels sooner, and right in the sweet spot of levels.
I strongly recommend a switch-hitter ranger build through at least level 6. A quick draw shield and longsword is fine, ask your DM if you take Weapon Focus Bastard sword if he'll give you that for free. If not, stick with longsword.
Take the longbow and get Precise Shot so you can fire into melee.
You can now: Shoot things at range.
Drop the bow and draw your sword to hack on things two handed.
Use a Quickdraw shield and Two Weapon Fight if you have need to.
The difference will be that you are now looking at favored enemies instead of favored weapons. You also get spells, an animal companion, can use cure wands, a good reflex save, and a lot of skill points.
Strongly advise using ranger instead of fighter, at least until you get shield master, and probably afterwards. it's easy to customize Favored Enemy to any campaign, and its thematic.
==Aelryinth
Helps with expertise and skill points, but not with Shield Master and TWF.
Something for after you get Shield Master, maybe.
==Aelryinth
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Yes, I am aware of all that. But I am specifically asking for advice on the best way to make what I posted above work--not a separate class. Fighter is this player's choice. This is what he wants. Also rangers are not allowed in this campaign because "they don't join the army." Yes it won't be as optimized as a different choice but it will definitely be playable and it's what he wants.
Everyone doesn't have great system mastery and the GM won't be throwing fully optimized stuff at us either. I even made some different choices than I would have to slow down the progression of my archer because I felt I would be too powerful compared to the rest of the party.
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Well brawler dont join the military either.
So just go with what you already have.
This is incredibly not helpful..
I'm not making up the rules. These are the rules layed out by the GM. "Druids, Monks, and Rangers" don't join the army. Nothing was mentioned about brawlers. We've got Slayer, Swashbuckler, and Hunter. The fourth guy wants to make a Fighter. Specifically the class. I'm trying to help him out. The least you could do is either not respond or help given the restrictions as outlined.
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With the restrictions posted, here is my attempt:
Human fighter (brawler)
Str 16, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Weapons of choice: Heavy shield and punching dagger. A punching dagger can be used similar to a gladius, and it means your main attack is bashing with the shield, using TWF with the dagger as your off-hand.
1 Double Slice, Improved Shield Bash, Two-Weapon Fighting
2 Step Up
3 Weapon Focus (heavy shield)
4 Following Step, Str +1
5 Power Attack
6 Shield Slam
7 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
8 Greater Weapon Focus (heavy shield), Str +1
9 Combat Reflexes
10 Improved Initiative
11 Shield Master
12 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, trade Improved Initiative for Two-Weapon Rend, Con +1
13 Iron Will, Stand Still
If your GM is stingy with stat belts and magical items, you may have to go without Greater or even Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. This build will allow you to get in an enemy's face and hit them hard, while making it very hard for them to get away from you.
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The problem is: Low point buy for a MAD build using a weak class.
How about dropping TWF and using either weapon and shield with iteratives? The build would be much easier without needing the dex for TWF.
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Yeah, I'd say the answer to the OP's question is "Don't."
What your friend wants is just not feasible for a low point buy game. He is going to be very, very ineffective at pretty much any job he tries to take on as a Fighter, because he's spreading himself even thinner than the class normally is.
He won't be able to fight well: his strength is low, his to-hit is low (and lower because of TWF).
His HP is going to be very low: 12 con on a frontliner?!
His AC will be okay: he has decent armor and a shield, plus Dex... but AC is a pretty meh defensive stat, overall.
His saves will be absolute garbage: +3 F +2 R +0 W. Blegh.
He won't be very effective out of combat: he's only got 3 skill points a level, and one is surely going into Perception (because it's not a class skill and he NEEDS to see/hear things) leaving him little room to pick up much else useful.
If you absolutely positively have to keep going with this, Mergy's suggestion looks about as good as you'll be able to make this setup.
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@claudekennilol
People on the boards here are sometimes too focused on mechanical aspects of class and you can, or don't have to, ignore comments "take another class because fighter sucks". It's your choice completely.
That on side, I say that fighter can be played just fine if you wish to play one. In regards to your build, I will recommend something a little less stat free; take a Dex focused Sword and Board build. If you take these stats as an example: Str 14, Dex 14+2, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10; you have an option to dump Cha if you wish for several more points while retaining high AC and makes taking TWF chains much more easier. You have to grab Weapon Finesse unfortunately and it might mess up required Preq's for some feats, but it could still be interesting build.
Adam
Does he specifically want to do TWF?
There is the Thunderstriker archetype, which uses THF and buckler.
I think: Your friend dont want a figther. He want to be someone that can figth well. And for TWF with sword and board that is not figther. If ranger is out tell him to make a second slayer or tell him to drop the sword and make a warpriiest that hit folks with his shield or somthing. The game have limits and trying to make somthing that wont be good is not the answer th that problem.
If this is not helfull then i say go with your first plan and let him learn the hard way.
Edit: pehaps go versatilie human to get +2 on both dex and str.
For archetypes, you want either the Two weapon fighter who applies weapon training to any weapons wielded together, or the Lore Warden for free expertise and more skill points, at the cost of heavy armor.
Ask the DM if playing a no-spell, guide ranger would be okay...that removes the Druid aspect and turns the character into basically a commando.
==Aelryinth
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If you absolutely positively have to keep going with this, Mergy's suggestion looks about as good as you'll be able to make this setup.
Cheers!
It's not as bad as you say though. At level 2, which is where these guys are starting, the build I posted has an average of 19 hp, and an AC of 18 with a chain shirt and heavy shield. He attacks at +5 with his shield or +6 with a masterwork punching dagger, and can use TWF at +3 (1d4+3)/+4 (1d4+3/x3) as a full attack. At level 2, that's solid, especially if he can grab a flank.
Flash to level 8 where some of his bonuses are actually present. Give him a +2 bashing shield, a +1 mithral breastplate, and a +1 punching dagger, along with a stat belt that gives +2 to Strength and Dexterity and a +2 cloak of resistance (Total gp spent ~31k, so 2k left for other stuff). Now he's got an AC of 24 (although his distraction gives enemies a –1 debuff on their attack rolls, so it's effectively 25 if he can get up to them) and can bash with his shield for +18 (1d8+10) and TWF for +16/+11 (1d8+10) and +14/+9 (1d4+10/x3). Naturally Power Attack is only for cases where he's hitting something with a low AC or with an attack boost.
If he manages to corner someone against a wall (and Following Step makes that much easier), that poor sap is likely going down due to Shield Slam letting him knock the guy prone.
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You want the shield to be a one-handed weapon. That gives you the ability to make two-handed shield bashes for extra damage when you move.
Arguably. Though of note - if a light weapon, you could use a pair of shields so that weapon focus/spec/training all affect all of your attacks. It works mechanically, even if it sounds a bit wonky.
If I or a player in my group wanted to try it, I'd probably say that they aren't actually shields (mechanically yes - but not in fluff) but rather some sort of oversized bracer covered in spikes. (or something along those lines)
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I guess your GM has never heard of the Army Rangers. Or Sun Tzu for that matter.
An army without scouts is an army that will lose battles.
But the ludicrous claims and house rules of your GM aside, you CAN make a decent fighter with sword and shield. But it's easier if you treat the shield as your primary weapon.
My build would be similar to Mergy's, but I would Switch some feats to fit in Bashing Finish
Human fighter (brawler)
Str 16, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Weapons of choice: Heavy shield and Cestus. The increased crit range is needed for Bashing Finish. Also the cestus allows you to two hand the shield if you can't full attack.
1 Power Attack, Improved Shield Bash, Two-Weapon Fighting
2 Step Up
3 Weapon Focus (heavy shield)
4 Following Step, Str +1
5 Double Slice
6 Shield Slam
7 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
8 Greater Weapon Focus (heavy shield), Str +1
9 Combat Reflexes
10 Improved Initiative
11 Shield Master
12 Bashing Finish, trade Improved Initiative for Two-Weapon Rend, Con +1
13 Iron Will, Stand Still
I guess his GM is a 1e grognard. In 1e, no more than 3 rangers would ever work together, and there are presumably already 3 of them in the army.
His GM is orienting on the druidic nature of rangers, not the function of scouts. They are basically 'nature paladins', I'm guessing.
So, no, they wouldn't be in a civilized army.
Which doesn't mean there shouldn't be scouts.
==Aelryinth