I know this is a sticky topic, considering there's been no clarification on how the Skirmisher Tricks mentioned in the Hunter's Animal Companion function, but how have players and GMs been handling this class ability? What are people's experiences at PFS been like regarding this?
For those who don't know
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rdsc?Hunters-Animal-Companion-and-Hunters-Tric ks
That thread should make it clear how completely ambiguous this class feature is.
I'm not trying to pick a fight or try to draw even more attention to this matter (I'm sure they saw the 130 FAQ'd thread I linked, plus the dozens of other threads). I'm just curious what people's experiences have been.
So far I've run two PBP PFS games with my Hunter and both my GMs have allowed unlimited usage per day with whatever skirmisher tricks I've selected; however, they limit (rightfully) to one trick per attack.
does not seem to work. ;(
That's sort of what I expected; for it to be all over the place with table variation.
Glad to see people are actually allowing hunter's to use the tricks though. You'd be surprised how many people don't see that line of text in the Animal Companion for Hunters.
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Yes, if a piece of information is missing that should be there, such as the range or the target, then you should make reasonable assumptions about the intent. That is not what is happening here. Tricks don't have limited use. Class abilities only have limited use if there is one listed. I don't see either of these things here.
It may be different than how you would rule, but I'm not adding rules where none exist.
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I don't think I made my point well, perhaps a more detailed explanation will help.
In the example given by John, hexes normally have a range limit, Ice Tomb didn't have one listed, so come to a reasonable ruling.
Skirmisher tricks normally have a usage limit, the hunter text doesn't have one listed, so come to a reasonable ruling.
You might reasonably rule that a hunter is allowed to add the following (assuming they know them) as free actions every time their animal companion attacks/hits.
Distracting Attack (Ex): The Ranger can use this trick as a free action before he makes an attack. If the attack hits, the target takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls for 1 round.
Hateful Attack (Ex): The Ranger can use this trick as a free action when he makes an attack against one of his favored enemies. The Ranger doubles the threat range of his weapon for this attack. This does not stack with other abilities that increase a weapon’s threat range.
Hobbling Attack (Ex): The Ranger can use this trick as a free action when he hits with an attack. The target of the attack’s land speed is reduced by 1/2 for 1d4 rounds.
Rattling Strike (Ex): The Ranger can use this trick as a free action before he makes a melee attack. If the attack hits, the target is shaken for 1d4 rounds.
Tangling Attack (Ex): The Ranger can use this attack as a free action when he makes an attack. If the attack hits, the target is entangled for 1 round.
Upending Strike (Ex): The Ranger can use this trick as a free action just before he makes a melee attack. If the attack hits, he may make a free trip combat maneuver against the target.
I'm not saying that you have rule a limit. As a GM you could decide that it's reasonable with no limit. All I'm saying is you're not required to do so.
One of your jobs as a GM is absolutely to add rules where none exist.
The answer shouldn't be, well nobody bothered to write a limit so I guess you can do whatever.
The answer also shouldn't be, well there aren't rules for the specific thing you want to do, so you can't do it at all.
The answer should be, well the rules aren't very clear, lets call it animal HD + Wisdom modifier, or lets call it your hunter level + wisdom modifier, or unlimited/day but only 1 at a time, or unlimited all the time.
My point is, as a GM you are absolutely empowered to fill in the rules gaps, you don't have to assume that no written limit means unlimited. You could come to that conclusion as a GM if you wanted to though.
Developer
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Basically what Robert said above. If you have to make a call as a GM because an ability seems to be missing a key piece of information (e.g. range or uses per day), I recommend aiming for a fair middle ground that keeps the ability useful without making it super powerful/limitless.
Granted, this isn't a thread about how to rule on rules ambiguities in general; it's about a particular ambiguity. I recently overheard several of the design team talking shop about the Advanced Class Guide, so I'll try to inquire about this particular point and see if we can get some clarification.
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Thanks, Jon. I'm not really familiar enough with the Skirmisher tricks to know what's overpowered, so I'm just having to take it on a case by case basis.
Edit: Robert, I get what you're saying. I'm just not going to impose a limit on my players without good reason. I see the lack of a usage limit as a conscious decision, you see it as an oversight. Neither one of us is wrong until the Design Team weighs in. Happy Gaming.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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An unlimited use seems indeed pretty damn good, but I have a related question, since most of the Skirmisher tricks the companion can actually use are free actions, how would you limit those?
After all, even a level 1 Hunter with a large cat animal companion has 3 attacks at level 1. Bluntly one full attack should not automatically inflict shaken, entangled and suffer a -2 to attack rolls, without a single attack roll or saving throw.
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The riders aren't automatic, you still need to hit.
As for me, I've been limiting myself to 1 skirmisher trick per round, as I find it even for a 4 intelligence companion going a bit too far to use multiple of those tricks with multiple attacks in the same round.
So with 2 attacks there'll be two attempts at getting the skirmisher trick to work (while they don't have a save, your attack still needs to hit), but not every attack a different skirmisher trick.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Maryland—Hagerstown
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i usually play it as one trick per round// all my GMs seem to be ok with that. As far as how many times per day you can use it. Its still a trick and can be used as many time as you want to use it.
i guess it will just vary until an official ruling comes down.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Ah sorry I, I really should not post in a hurry. A limit of one trick per round seems reasonable, otherwise animal companions with a lot of natural attacks just become even more amazing.
That said I think, the hunter can do with a a little boost in power, after all their animal companion should be the very best (kinda like a divine summoner..but not insane), and they are not that much better than a druid animal companion. Animal Focus helps, but I suspect the text about Skirmisher tricks was added when someone realized this.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Maryland—Hagerstown
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I think the Hunter's AC is more efficient then the Druid's just because of the skirmishers trick. I believe that the Hunter's stats are solid as well. This character build gives us a ally and forces them to work together to achieve the mission. Which to me is even more fun since it adds more strategy to the game.
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Yes, if a piece of information is missing that should be there, such as the range or the target, then you should make reasonable assumptions about the intent. That is not what is happening here. Tricks don't have limited use. Class abilities only have limited use if there is one listed. I don't see either of these things here.
It may be different than how you would rule, but I'm not adding rules where none exist.
Thing is, these tricks (in their original presentation) do have limited use. It's just that it's buried in the alt class feature text of the Skirmisher Ranger, where it applies to all the tricks on the list, and any that might be added to the list in future.
At 5th level, a skirmisher Ranger learns the use of hunter’s tricks, which typically grant a boon or bonus to the Ranger or a nearby ally. At 5th level, the Ranger learns one trick, selected from the list below. At 7th level, and every two levels thereafter, he learns another trick. A Ranger can use these tricks a total number of times per day equal to 1/2 his Ranger level + his Wisdom modifier. Tricks are usually swift actions, but sometimes move or free actions that modify a standard action, usually an attack action. Once a trick is chosen, it can’t be retrained. A Ranger cannot select an individual trick more than once.
A Hunter choosing a trick from the list, and only referring to the text of the specific trick itself, rather than the overriding language of the Ranger 'Hunter's Tricks' ability, could be said to be benefitting in a way that was never intended.
I think it would be fair to set a limit, for each one, of [half class level + Wis mod]/day, but that still leaves the question of whose class level and Wis mod, the companion learning the trick, or the Hunter who teaches it?.
I would say, it's based on the animal's Hit Dice and Wis, since they're the owner of the trick.
And I say that, as a player who just recently started a Hunter PC in PFS.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Maryland—Hagerstown
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Yes, if a piece of information is missing that should be there, such as the range or the target, then you should make reasonable assumptions about the intent. That is not what is happening here. Tricks don't have limited use. Class abilities only have limited use if there is one listed. I don't see either of these things here.
It may be different than how you would rule, but I'm not adding rules where none exist.
Thing is, these tricks (in their original presentation) do have limited use. It's just that it's buried in the alt class feature text of the Skirmisher Ranger, where it applies to all the tricks on the list, and any that might be added to the list in future.
At 5th level, a skirmisher Ranger learns the use of hunter’s tricks, which typically grant a boon or bonus to the Ranger or a nearby ally. At 5th level, the Ranger learns one trick, selected from the list below. At 7th level, and every two levels thereafter, he learns another trick. A Ranger can use these tricks a total number of times per day equal to 1/2 his Ranger level + his Wisdom modifier. Tricks are usually swift actions, but sometimes move or free actions that modify a standard action, usually an attack action. Once a trick is chosen, it can’t be retrained. A Ranger cannot select an individual trick more than once.A Hunter choosing a trick from the list, and only referring to the text of the specific trick itself, rather than the overriding language of the Ranger 'Hunter's Tricks' ability, could be said to be benefitting in a way that was never intended.
I think it would be fair to set a limit, for each one, of [half class level + Wis mod]/day, but that still leaves the question of whose class level and Wis mod, the companion learning the trick, or the Hunter who teaches it?.
I would say, it's based on the animal's Hit Dice and Wis, since they're the owner of the trick.
And I say that, as a player who just recently started a Hunter PC in PFS.
True, I never looked up the Skirmisher archtype, but I see where you are coming from. If thats the case, then you could argue it either way. My opinion is to go by the AC since it is the one actually doing the trick.
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Designer
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Basically what Robert said above. If you have to make a call as a GM because an ability seems to be missing a key piece of information (e.g. range or uses per day), I recommend aiming for a fair middle ground that keeps the ability useful without making it super powerful/limitless.
Granted, this isn't a thread about how to rule on rules ambiguities in general; it's about a particular ambiguity. I recently overheard several of the design team talking shop about the Advanced Class Guide, so I'll try to inquire about this particular point and see if we can get some clarification.
It's on my list. It'll get FAQ Friday-ed eventually.
It's on my list. It'll get FAQ Friday-ed eventually.Basically what Robert said above. If you have to make a call as a GM because an ability seems to be missing a key piece of information (e.g. range or uses per day), I recommend aiming for a fair middle ground that keeps the ability useful without making it super powerful/limitless.
Granted, this isn't a thread about how to rule on rules ambiguities in general; it's about a particular ambiguity. I recently overheard several of the design team talking shop about the Advanced Class Guide, so I'll try to inquire about this particular point and see if we can get some clarification.
I, for one, am waiting this FAQ with abated breath, Mark. Very much looking forward to seeing the final decision, whichever way the designers go.