Clarification requested: Sunburst vs. protective peumbra on a vampire


Rules Questions


Title says it all. I could have SWORN I saw this in the faq earlier, but now I can't find it... not sure if i'm imagining things or not. If I'm being blind, I apologize.

Anywho, I have a vampire (technically a dread vampire, but should still be the same I think) with it's sunlight problem. I keep penumbra (level 0 cantrip) up at all times, and will bolster my defense with protective penumbra in a combat scenario. A player recently asked why I do so, since it wouldn't protect me from sunburst or light spells that call out vampires (I don't know of any others myself, but I'm sure they are out there). I would think protective penumbra would protect me as it has 'vulnerability' listed clearly in the spell... I mean, why make this advanced version of the 0 cantrip if it didn't add anything? Anywho, if there is a clear rule on this I'd appreciate the source to show my DM for extra proof. Thanks for your time!

Shadow Lodge

Protective Penumbra negates the effect of your vulnerability trait, but does not make you immune to all light-based effects. So you still take damage (increased undead damage in fact) but aren't automatically destroyed if you fail your save.

Protective Penumbra wrote:
This spell keeps the target slightly in shadow. A target with light blindness, light sensitivity, or vulnerability to sunlight (such as vampires and wraiths) may ignore penalties from those qualities. The spell gives the target a +2 bonus on saving throws against nonmagical hazards related to bright light, such as glare or sunburn.

The cantrip (which is not "official") does not do anything for vampires or other creatures with sunlight vulnerability - it only negates light sensitivity and light blindness, less severe conditions.

Penumbra wrote:
This spell keeps the creature or object touched slightly in shadow. The target of this spell does not suffer any penalties or blindness caused by bright light, such as those from light sensitivity or light blindness.

Note: instantly dying in sunlight is not a "penalty" - that's why the level 2 spell specifically calls out "vulnerability."


Also, pretty much any light spell above level two (or even at level two) will dispel your Penumbra without any fuss... So, it's not actually going to do much of anything against something like Sunburst. And a Daylight spell cast during... Daylight will kill you. So, watch out for that stuff.


Indeed if a Sunburst spell goes off in the vicinity of a vampire it is going to be painful even if the vampire has Protective Penumbra spell running.

The way I see it and understand it:

The vampire will take 50% additional damage (if facing a 20th level caster 20d6 plus 50% of the value of that roll). It's not an energy type but the vampire is protected from penalties caused by the vulnerability so no -4 on the Reflex save. Whether you are destroyed if you fail the save depends on your GM (and/or if there is a FAQ or clarification out there). A more literal interpretation says you won't suffer the -4 penalty to the Reflex save but would be destroyed based off this part of the text -> "Some creatures might suffer additional effects, as noted in their descriptions." Being destroyed is not a penalty as it is not a 'numerical value' -> Penalty: Penalties are numerical values that are subtracted from a check or statistical score. Check with your GM as your unlife literally might depend on it. In any case the Protective Penumbra gets dispelled.

Of course, as Cyrus eludes to, if you are standing outside during daylight when the Sunburst hits you are in deep doo anyway (have your Contingency cast). Of course one way to make this less an issue is to Heighten your Protective Penumbra to 9th (that will cancel out an awful lot of light spells with text along the lines similar to that of Sunburst, 'dispels any darkness spells of lower than 9th level within its area'. A friendly divine caster with access to Greater Spell Immunity can also be of great value in protecting you from the few highly dangerous 'light' spells out there (or a high UMD and the right item/scroll). There are 3 I'm aware of and would take care to protect myself from are: Sunburst (8th Wiz, Drd), Sunbeam(7th Drd) and Searing Light(3rd Clr). Both Sunbeam and Sunburst are capable of outright destroying undead with weakness to sunlight.


Dread Vampire only take 5 points of health each round exposed to sunlight, and their fast healing 5 is shut off during the exposure.

Also you gain deeper darkness once a day, save it up.

Shadow Lodge

Kayerloth wrote:
The vampire will take 50% additional damage (if facing a 20th level caster 20d6 plus 50% of the value of that roll). It's not an energy type but the vampire is protected from penalties caused by the vulnerability so no -4 on the Reflex save. Whether you are destroyed if you fail the save depends on your GM (and/or if there is a FAQ or clarification out there). A more literal interpretation says you won't suffer the -4 penalty to the Reflex save but would be destroyed based off this part of the text -> "Some creatures might suffer additional effects, as noted in their descriptions." Being destroyed is not a penalty as it is not a 'numerical value' -> Penalty: Penalties are numerical values that are subtracted from a check or statistical score. Check with your GM as your unlife literally might depend on it.

A vampire's vulnerability to sunlight does not follow the general rules for vulnerability - note that though the Protective Penumbra spell refers to it as a vulnerability, the actual monster entry files it under "weaknesses" probably to avoid invoking the "vulnerability" rules. Sunburst, searing light, and similar spells call out specific additional effects for light-sensitive creatures (for Sunburst, destroyed if they fail their save) probably because many of these weaknesses aren't actual vulnerabilities.

Also relevant to point out: as far as I can tell, most light/darkness spells need to be specifically used to dispel in order to dispel each other and don't have their normal effect when dispelling (ref), but Sunburst dispells darkness spells automatically as part of its effect.

"Sunburst dispels any darkness spells of lower than 9th level within its area."

vs

"Darkness can be used to counter or dispel any light spell of equal or lower spell level."

I would think that the dispelling resolves after you are affected by the spell so you're not immediately subject to automatic destruction, but I'm not sure.

EDIT: dread vampire, unlike the normal vampire, does use the term "sunlight vulnerability" so I think by RAW they would have a -4 penalty to saves vs Sunburst and are otherwise affected by the spell like vampires. Not sure if that's the 3pp's intent.


Sunlight Vulnerability (Ex)

A dread vampire hates the sun and takes 5 points of damage per round of direct exposure to sunlight. It does not benefit from its fast healing when exposed to sunlight.
Taken from Dread Vampire.


"Light spells counter and dispel darkness spells of an equal or lower level."

From the description of Continual Flame (which lots of people could easily be carrying around in a city, say). This language is passive, implying that it just sort of happens, which is quite different from what Darkness says... I wonder if this is a rule...

"Daylight counters or dispels any darkness spell of equal or lower level, such as darkness."

"Deeper darkness can be used to counter or dispel any light spell of equal or lower spell level."

Sounds to me like the rule (which Continual Flame outright states) is Light spells just do dispel darkness spells. Conversely, darkness spells can be *used* to dispel light spells, which is an important distinction. Given the nature of mundane light and darkness, and the powerful nature of the normal darkness effect (you can't see me!), I think this makes sense.

If nothing else, I would think that even continual flame would make mundane lighting conditions apply where a light and darkness spell intersect- that is to say, it would be suppressed. and if you're wandering around and your penumbra goes off even temporarily (in town, say), you'll be at minimum exposed for the (dread) vampire you are when you start smoking and taking damage, I would think.

As Kayerloth says, heighten and a possible contingency spell are your friends, but those are pretty high-level options (though maybe they are available if you are getting hit with Sunbursts). Travel in a windowless or shuttered carriage during the day? And realize that if you *are* getting hit with Sunburst, you just might have to make a save to not die... But, you are undead, and so immune to nine out of ten death effects that everyone else has to worry about, anyway.

Also, why on earth are Dread Vampires only 1 CR higher than normal vampires?

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