Hello all. I'd like to ask for your advice with a problem that I've had in one of my real life games.
I play in 2 games, one run by the teenage son of the other. The son isn't a great DM, but he's learning, and doing an okay job so far. I really like the group, and the campaign has been going well. Here's the problem, whenever players can't make it to a session, he allows his father to play them. The father is a fantastic DM, but he has a ton of influence on his kid, and so he can essentially control the game whenever he plays. He also becomes something of a jerk when he plays, something which does not appear when he DMs.
When we play, he kind of bosses around some of our newer players, pretty much telling them what to do. Despite this, we were all having a good time, and he was actually being pretty helpful towards keeping the game running quickly. Eventually we entered a mob battle, where the 6 of us were trapped in a building against 24 enemies. As a fairly strategic player who also happened to win initiative, I tried to assess the situation before acting, and tried to come up with some kind of plan to avoid what appeared to be a total TPK.
As I'm doing this, after perhaps a minute or two, he leans over to the DM to get his attention and says to me, "Your character readies an action to attack whoever comes near them. Stop trying to metagame everyone's turns, who's next?" Upon hearing this, the DM moves on down the initiative order.
I never told anyone what to do, but was talking to a few other players to try to come up with a strategy. The player is already familiar with my playstyle, as he is my DM in another campaign. He has never acted like this before, as he has never played in a campaign with me, only DMed. He will likely often end up playing replacement characters, and since he runs my other campaign, I spend quite a bit of time with him.
I've read many threads like this before, and I know what the common reply is, but I just wanted to hear other people's opinions. If I attempt to discuss what happened with the player, he'll laugh it off and mock me for taking things too seriously. If I try to discuss it with the DM, he'll talk to his father, and I'll be in the same situation.
Should I talk to either of them, I could very well be booted from both campaigns.
I really do like both the DM and the player, and I enjoy their games, but I don't want to have this happen again. If I leave their games, there are no other games in my area, which means that I would only be able to play PbP(which is great, I play it already, but I also enjoy IRL games).
What are your thoughts? I would really appreciate the help.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
welp, you can only really deal with this via talking to them or leaving and I doubt you want to leave, and if you think you wouldn't just like to "deal with it", then maybe talking to him is worth the risk?
there's always the more confrontational "no I didn't ready my action", but i think that has a higher chance of rebuttal.
|
That's tough looks like this guy likes to throw his weight around. I'm guessing his intentions are to help his son run a smooth game as a newbie GM. You may just have to bite the bullet and risk being laughed at by him and talk this through. If possible try talking to the father and son at the same time. Best thing that happens is they keep your play style in mind next time. The worst they laugh and you just have to suck it up. As you mentioned you don't have many options. If it gets bad enough you may just have to quit. I hope things work out for you.
I figured that talking to them was probably the best option I had. Who do you guys think that it would be better to talk to? The son is a very good friend of mine, but the dad has more influence. I'm trying to handle this in such a way that I don't piss them off, as I don't want to be booted from their games.
The dad always watches to help out the kid if he needs help, but this is the first time that he's personally played, so this may very well just be a one time problem. I'll probably wait until our next session and see what happens. If it continues to be a problem, I'll have to talk to one or both of them.
|
|
I think you may be over thinking it dragonflyer1243. Talk to both of them. I don't think you need to divide and conquer here. If they push back let it go. Try again and see how things turn out at the table. Merely bringing it up that you didn't appreciate how things went down last time shouldn't upset them. Be tactful and listen to their responses. I find it hard to believe they would show you the door for saying you didn't like how things went down and would like to avoid that again.
Thank you guys very much for the advice, I'll definitely try to keep it in mind and hopefully it all turns out well.
How long had you spent talking to the other players about your strategy? In certain circumstances (especially if the GM wants to maintain any degree of tension), it's not unreasonable to ask players to declare an action or go on hold until they know what they're going to do. Too often I've seen combat grind to a halt as players discuss the pros/cons of a specific action, as though the goblins (or whatever) you're fighting are going to wait patiently while you make up your mind.
If the father could see that his son wanted to keep things moving but was not comfortable/confident enough to tell you that he needed you to make a decision, he may have intervened in the belief that he was helping. As his son gains experience as a GM, I'd expect this to happen less and less.
Ok so this has happened once and it's not that severe. Wait and see. One incident this minor isn't that big a deal. If it happens again basically say something like "I respect you but please do not try to dictate my actions or call me a meta gamer."
Im going along with the feeling of the OP was holding things up in a situation that was supposed to move forward quickly.
Family members know each other, body language, tendencies, and he may have known what his son wanted to happen as well.
People who take their "turn" too long at my table usually get bumped own the initiative order, precisely for this reason.
Just because the dice roll gave you the first chance to act, doesn't mean you can monopolize game time.
Often times, if you get a reaction from people you don't like or didn't expect, the first place to look for answers is how you yourself are acting or being perceived, in order to have received the unwanted or unexpected reaction in the first place.
|
I hear what you're saying and I think the Father was definitely out of line, but I also agree from a DMing perspective that it can be very frustrating (and slows the pace and negatively impacts the tension) when players spend 5 minutes strategizing at the beginning of a combat. I certainly wouldn't have decided an action for you, but I may have said "you have 30 seconds to decide what to do, or we will assume you are delaying".
I like tactics and I tend to play characters with tactical minds. I absolutely despise the notion that using tactics is somehow "meta gaming." Effective tactics is what makes or breaks a combat. It is the difference between winning the battle and a TPK (as my last GM found out).
However, by that same token, talking tactics is not something characters can do for five minutes while they're 10 seconds away from battle. If you want good, effective tactics, then it is typically somthing you must discuss before combat is imminent, such as during camping or just after a recon mission. And while this discussion may be boring for the GM, I've always thought it was important to talk about (I even go as far as encouraging my players to come up with at least some basic tactical plans when I GM).
To change directions of my post, here's some general advice when you have to talk with someone in a situation that may harm feelings: when you have something negative to say about them, always preface it with, "I feel that..." For example, in this scenario you could say, "I feel that it is disrespectful or bully-like when someone dictates what my character does while I'm at the gaming table." Never be accusatory, and try to avoid saying "you did this" or "you are at fault." Make the focus about your feelings rather than their behavior. Conversely, when giving praise, use "you" a lot and avoid any language that references yourself. This tactic is very effective for reducing negative emotions and defensive behavior from the person you're talking with. And remember, conversations need to go both ways. :)
I was definitely taking my time, but it was never something that's never been a problem before. It's an understanding at our table that we are able to take time before an encounter and try to plan out what we're trying to do, and the DM actually encouraged it in the beginning of the encounter.
My main concern wasn't having my turn essentially ignored, it was that the player seemed to have made the decision without even consulting the DM or the other players, who were fine with the strategizing. I definitely know what you guys are talking about with the idea that he may have known that his son wanted me to move faster, but I don't think that that's what happened in this case, as the DM looked quite confused after the player made that decision, and had to be prompted by the player to continue with initiative at the next player.
I know that I'm probably overreacting to what happened, and I apologize for that. I also know that some of the stuff that happened was probably a result of my taking too long, so I'm certainly not blameless, I just wanted to get some other opinions on the situation.
Edit: Just saw Bookrat's post. That TPK situation was exactly why I wanted to strategize, as our party isn't very good at avoiding deaths, and so I figured that against 24 people, we should want a strategy. I do always try to figure out plans ahead of time, but the DM actually encourages just figuring out plans when we start each combat, as he seems to get bored waiting as we talk at camp(he's used to playing, so he gets bored watching pretty quickly).
im all for strategy, but…it's not very realistic to expect to sit there and plan out everything when you were not expecting a mob of 24 attackers in the first place.
If you had had some kind of advanced warning, a plan would have been worked out prior to initiative being rolled.
A young/inexperienced DM wouldn't know something like this, and in a situation where you have already rolled initiative, it shouldn't be expected that you have time to get a group huddle together and talk about what you are doing. Especially since, in game, that plan and discussion would have needed to take place in full view and hearing of the enemy standing right in front of you.
I think the 30 second wanting, would have sufficed, however.
This was actually somewhat initiative was rolled. The DM placed the figures on the board and drew out the map, at which point we began to discuss strategy. We weren't planning out the entire encounter, but rather where to put our characters on the map and thus where to begin the battle from. We could see the beasts approaching the building we were in, so we would actually have had time to discuss our plans. Within perhaps a minute of discussion, the player ended up randomly placing our figures on the map, without asking any of the players or consulting the GM, and then, as we realized what he had done and tried to move our figures to where we thought appropriate, this was when he decided to skip my turn. So this would have happened in the minutes before battle, not literally as the enemy burst into the room.
I do agree, this is something that the party in general should be planning out, or should be able to handle quickly if they are surprised, but I felt that it was kind of an unreasonable action to take considering that we had warning, and that the battle had yet to begin. In general, we're pretty quick to go on our turns, and a 30 second rule wouldn't be a problem, it was just that this specific situation seemed to warrant more time allotted, or at least a warning that we were running out of time to act, rather than the player simply deciding to do what he felt like.
hmmm…
well it seems you are adding more information than there was before.
where did he place his own mini?
This was actually somewhat initiative was rolled. The DM placed the figures on the board and drew out the map, at which point we began to discuss strategy. We weren't planning out the entire encounter, but rather where to put our characters on the map and thus where to begin the battle from. We could see the beasts approaching the building we were in, so we would actually have had time to discuss our plans. Within perhaps a minute of discussion, the player ended up randomly placing our figures on the map, without asking any of the players or consulting the GM, and then, as we realized what he had done and tried to move our figures to where we thought appropriate, this was when he decided to skip my turn. So this would have happened in the minutes before battle, not literally as the enemy burst into the room.
This may not help, but no, I can totally see why you're upset. That was completely uncalled for.
Personally, I'd talk to the player and the GM at the time. Then, if it happened again, I'd start packing up mid game.
I know that I, myself, play PF to actually play, not to have my character dictated to me by another player. Even so, rarely by the GM. God-moding (as it was known in free-form RP) someone else's char is so far beyond the 'h#!! no' line, to me at least, it's rather unforgivable. But then, I've got experience with GMs who wouldn't really let the players dictate what their characters would do, merely suggest, so, I don't put up with it. Exceptions abound (dominate/geass, permission given, etc).
That said... Talk to both of 'em at the same time as everyone suggests. Tell 'em you didn't like how it went last session. You're there to play, not have the character you made to play, played by someone else. Sure, it was the one time, but a thirty second warning would have sufficed.
If you must, point out what happened in the bit I quoted.
If it doesn't work... Well, either deal with it, or walk.
hmmm…
well it seems you are adding more information than there was before.
where did he place his own mini?
My bad, I wasn't really sure what information would be relevant, and I was trying to avoid a massive wall of text, so I tried to keep the wordiness to a minimum, guessing at what you guys would want to know.
His was placed as haphazardly as the rest, but he wasn't playing a character he had made. He was playing a character for someone who wasn't at the session, and he didn't overly seem to care where he put them. He was playing an elven sorcerer, and put him right in the front line with the barbarian.
As I said, he hasn't played in our campaign before, as he only plays when someone is missing and the DM needs someone to play them, which is pretty rare, so hopefully he won't play too often, but it's still good to handle it before it becomes a problem.
Maybe he was just having an off day. If you like the guy and think he's a good GM, just let it go this one time. No sense putting his back up over what is ultimately a pretty inconsequential lapse of courtesy.
|
Mate, just let him know how you feel about it. Would he have pushed that issue when he was DMing the game, or is it only when his son GMs.
It might be he thinks you guys are trying to run rough shod over his son as a new GM and is playing helicopter dad, ensuring everything works out well. I think if you just chat to him about it, at least you'll have let him know how you're feeling and it will give an opportunity to hear his side of things.
Is he older than you as well? If so, that can be difficult, since some adults find it difficult to treat younger folks as equal (especially teenagers and early 20s). I'm forty, and I still have some people talk down to me because they think older means better. Some of them don't even realise they're doing it. It might just be he needs a heads up is all.
It's a tricky balance to strike. Before initiative, you should be given a reasonable length of time to formulate a plan.
I'm of the opinion that you should be a little rushed in your decisions once initiative has been rolled. You're going to make mistakes, especially before the party has fully gelled, but I think that that is part of the game.
I'm definitely towards the 'fast game is a good game' end of our group though. The two most experienced guys lean towards taking more time in these situations.
The flipside is that GMs need to play NPCs/monsters fairly, and must remember that with multiple creatures, they won't all be following the same playbook, and often won't have any organized plans whatsoever.
We're playing Rise of the Runelords at the moment, and it's plainly killing our GM to play the goblins as stupidly and disorganized as he is, but to be frank it's adding to the experience and we're having some good laughs.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A couple of thoughts:
1.) Alpha gaming (playing for everyone else) is a common issue in rpgs and board games. I'm guilty of it myself often, and have had to work on it profusely.
It sounds like this is a conflict between 2 alpha gamers, with bad verbal exchange. If you want to strategize or you just want to play, you've gotta talk about it before hand. I often ask for party permission to launch into a heavy strategy session. If a few people say no, I simple wing it on the fly.
2.) Several people have said that it's disruptive/unrealistic to strategize after initiative. I think this is often true.
However, on the flip side, we are accountants and fast food workers playing heroes who possess years of tactical experience. Whereas within my real life job I can react to a major problem instantly, sometimes I want to take time to figure out what my avatar actually can do, and then what she would do. I imagine my avatar reacting instantly, even though I spend 5 minutes deciding her story.
I've had new players take 15 minutes to explore what their relevant abilities do in the face of a dragon, and I trend towards that being a useful expenditure of time. If it happens constantly, I can see it being a problem.
I hear what you're saying and I think the Father was definitely out of line, but I also agree from a DMing perspective that it can be very frustrating (and slows the pace and negatively impacts the tension) when players spend 5 minutes strategizing at the beginning of a combat. I certainly wouldn't have decided an action for you, but I may have said "you have 30 seconds to decide what to do, or we will assume you are delaying".
I guess I'm the bossy player in our group :-( Often coming up with GM decisions as a player, to help the game run smoothly.
Like telling a freshly started player that she can't use summon monster, when she's never opened the beastiary before? But in turn offering to help come up with 3-5 monsters for each spell level and talk about their differences, prior to next session - put their main stats together in a word document and help them print it.
Or when a player can't make a decision on how to handle a 1gp fine, when she was all alone and literally had no money at all - after spending 10 mins without saying anything final, i got kinda irritated and asked for a final answer, even though the GM didnt push the issue.
I can see that it's very poor style and i hate to do it, when I'm just a player, but our GM doesn't push the issues and i get easily annoyed, when the game comes to a complete halt at situations like those above, and everyone has to wait for a single player :-(
|
The first question I would have to ask is, how old are you and how old is the GM's father?
I ask because you say you are friends with the teenage GM, and if you are in his peer group, his father may look at you the same as he does his son and go into default dad mode. You are not -his- peer, you are his son's peer, and a parent's job is to guide their kids... some may just be a bit more bossy about it than others.
Now while he shouldn't be doing this during a game where everyone is supposed to be of equal status, sometimes he just may not realize that he is. Parents can be that way at times. If that is the case, I would certainly bring it up and try to smooth things out a bit.
On the other hand, if you are not his son's age and he is acting this way, it may be more of DDMS, or Displaced Dungeon Master Syndrome... we have all seen it, where the long time DM can't get over the fact that he is not the DM, and constantly "corrects" everyone and tries to basically back seat DM the games. If that is the case, pull him aside and ask him to chill out and tell him you don't appreciate him doing that nd that it is unfair to the current GM to have him basically usurping his authority.
No matter what it is something you need to address, and not in some passive aggressive manner, but strait forward, honest, open discussion. It is rude and disrespectful behavior no matter what the root cause and it should be addressed sooner rather than later.
I am a peer of the DM, but I'm also a friend of the play in question, and he's never treated me in that way, so I don't think it's that.
It may have been partially DDMS, as but I'm not overly sure. He was pretty impatient during the game as a whole, since he wasn't playing his own character and didn't really care what happened, he just wanted to do stuff.
Mikeawmids: That was pretty much my overall thought, and I think I'll wait to see if anything else happens before I talk to him, as I don't want to upset either him or his son.