Barbarian / swashbuckler for two weapon goodness


Advice

Scarab Sages

Human Barbarian(Titan Mauler)2/Swashbuckler 10

STR 7
DEX 19(+2 racial)
CON 15
INT 9
WIS 10
CHA 14

Traits:
Muscle of the Society
Irrepressible

Feats:
1 Weapon Focus(scimitar), |Human| Slashing Grace(scimitar)
2 Two Weapon Fighting
5 Toughness
6 |Combat| Martial Versatility(Slashing Grace)
7 Improved Two Weapon Fighting
9 Improved Critical(Elven Curve Blade)
11 Greater Two Weapon Fighting

I was looking at taking Swashbuckler at first level, followed by two levels of Titan mauler for Jotungrip. This would keep the character viable while waiting for 6th when he picks up MV so he can use elven curve blades in each hand with dex damage.

Note, even though he is human he will have elven weapon familiarity.

Do you think this would work?

Lantern Lodge

Don't you need an empty hand(or just a buckler in one hand) for any Swashbuckler abilities to work? Namely, finesse?


Jayson MF Kip wrote:
Don't you need an empty hand(or just a buckler in one hand) for any Swashbuckler abilities to work? Namely, finesse?

Nope the only restriction is actually on Precise Strike which says you can not attack with the weapon in your other hand or use a shield other than a buckler so it can be used as long as you're not two weapon fighting

Scarab Sages

How are you getting elven weapon familiarity? Adoptive Parentage gives up the human bonus feat.

Shadow Lodge

Jayson MF Kip wrote:
Don't you need an empty hand(or just a buckler in one hand) for any Swashbuckler abilities to work? Namely, finesse?

Only Percise Strike requires you to focus on a single weapon.

OP, why take Improved Critical? If you are confident that Martial Versatility (Slashing Grace) works then you already have Improved Critical at level 7.

I'm personally not entirely confident that Martial Versatility (Slashing Grace) works, but even if it does, lets look at a few things here. By the time you get to 26 Dex (assume level 12ish with a +4 item) your Elven Curve Blades would do 1d10+8 (plus any additional damage from enhancements, power attack, etc.) your rage never adds to damage, and you take a to hit penalty. If you started with the exact same strength as you have dexterity on the character and went pure Titan Mauler Barbarian then you would have +6 Strength while raging, giving your weapon another 3 damage, and even more-so if you had a Furious Courageous Weapon. And compared to a pure swashbuckler, you could dual wield scimitars for 1d6+8 with the exact same crit range and multiplier (1d6 vs 1d10 is 3.5 vs 5.5 average damage, on average 2 more damage, less then your proposed build is losing vs a full barbarian), or you could attack with a single weapon, gaining the bonus damage from percise strike (which doesn't multiply.)

Scarab Sages

Raisse wrote:
How are you getting elven weapon familiarity? Adoptive Parentage gives up the human bonus feat.

I have a boon which offers the weapon familiarity racial ability from any of the the core races, pick one.


Lorewalker wrote:
Do you think this would work?

No, though you could have a long argument about it.

I see four potential problems:
First:
Martial versatility doesn't say anything about pre-requisites. Can you give yourself martial versatility: slashing grace when you don't have the prerequisites for slashing grace with other weapons?
There's a good chance that that one has an FAQ answer. I'm not going to look it up, but you should. It's possible that you'd need to take martial versatility several times.

Second:
Jotungrip doesn't actually change the nature of the weapon. Slashing grace works with one-handed weapons. So trying to get it to work with jotungrip is going to involve an argument as to whether the phrase:

Jotungrip wrote:
"The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like."

means it counts as one-handed for feats. Note that the two examples both deal explicitly with damage dealt, not feats or class features that don't relate to damage.

Third:
Rule 7 applies. Rule 7 always applies. Nobody has to play with you. There are going to be some people who look at this and then either leave or tell you to leave.

Fourth:
Even if someone lets you play this and rules that it all works, you're going to miss a lot. The off-hand ECB isn't a light weapon, so that's -6/-6 (including the Jotungrip) to all attacks. And you don't have weapon focus (ECB). So you'll miss a lot.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

instead go two-handed fighter instead of swashbuckler.

Dark Archive

IF the GM agreed with the way that you are interpreting the interaction between Slashing Grace, Jotun Grip and Martial Versatility (which I find unlikely, and it wouldn't fly at my PFS table), your character would look really cool wielding two Elven Curveblades. But he would suck at combat with -6 to each attack, reducing his DPR WAY below a pure Barbarian or a straight up Swashbuckler.

And a 7 STR for a melee character is just plain silly: you will be encumbered if your armor and gear weighs more than 9 pounds (and it will).

Shadow Lodge

Just going to throw this out there, you can duel wield Falcatas without 2 levels of barbarian and the Falcata will be a superior one handed weapon.

Let's compare shall we?

Elven Curve Blade: 1d10 18-20/x2
Falcata: 1d8 19-20/x3

The dice are 1d10 vs 1d8, this will be average 1 damage difference, but where the falcata really shines is that critical multiplier. Over 20 attacks, assuming that a nat 1 misses, and anything that is a threat confirms, you will have an effective 22 attacks worth of damage with the Elven Curve Blade, but the Falcata will have 23. With Improved Critical it gets even more crazy, 25 vs 27. That's 137.5 average damage over 20 attacks for the Elven Curve Blade, and 121.5 average over 20 attacks for the Falcata, but this doesn't take into account Str (or Dex) for damage boosts that multiply on a critical hit, and the higher your base damage is, the further ahead the Falcata will end up. A +5 damage bonus will add 125 to the Elven Curve Blade over those 20 attacks, but it will add 135 to the Falcata, instantly causing the Falcata to gain ground vs the ECB with just a +5 damage bonus, its now only 6 damage behind, another +3 would make the damage identical.

Now, the Elven Curve Blade would be better if critical hits either cannot be confirmed or confirm less often, however this assumes that both the ECB and the Falcata have the same chance of hitting, which due to the ECB having an extra -2 to hit vs the Falcata it's going to hit less.

Best of all, using a Falcata with Slashing Grace isn't subject to GM fiat, it is a one handed slashing weapon.

Scarab Sages

Argus The Slayer wrote:
IF the GM agreed with the way that you are interpreting the interaction between Slashing Grace, Jotun Grip and Martial Versatility (which I find unlikely, and it wouldn't fly at my PFS table),

Martial Versatility:

Benefit: Choose one combat feat you know that applies to a specific weapon (e.g., Weapon Focus). You can use that feat with any weapon within the same weapon group.

Basically, this feat means that do to your training you can use many like weapons in the place of a similar weapon. IE To you, a longsword is the same as a two-bladed sword, in regards to a chosen feat.
So, an elven curve blade is the same as a scimitar in regards to how it is used by slashing grace. Except an elven curve blade must be wielded in two-hands... so it won't work with slashing grace. But add...

Jotungrip:
At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like.

For a player with Jotungrip, his two-handed weapon is wielded in one hand and, with a -2 penalty, counts as a one-handed weapon for feats and abilities that check if his wielded weapon is two-handed or one-handed. So, a normally two-handed weapon becomes a weapon wielded in one hand.

Slashing Grace
Prerequisite(s): Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with chosen weapon.
Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.

Combining Jotun grip(makes a two-hander a one-hander for the wielder) and the two-hander is wielded in one hand and MV lets you equate the original chosen weapon to an elven curve blade... this should satisfy both requirements for slashing grace to apply to the chosen weapon.

Quote:


your character would look really cool wielding two Elven Curveblades. But he would suck at combat with -6 to each attack, reducing his DPR WAY below a pure Barbarian or a straight up Swashbuckler.

This is true. I do need a light weapon in my other hand. That's what I get for creating a character when I was half-asleep. I'm thinking a klar for the off-hand weapon and taking imp shield bash.

Quote:


And a 7 STR for a melee character is just plain silly: you will be encumbered if your armor and gear weighs more than 9 pounds (and it will).

Yes, it is silly. It's supposed to look silly... but still be oddly effective.

Muscle of the society adds +2 to str for encumbrance. Then, I could get a masterwork backpack to boot... that is before getting extra dimensional storage.

Scarab Sages

Lucy_Valentine wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
Do you think this would work?

No, though you could have a long argument about it.

I see four potential problems:
First:
Martial versatility doesn't say anything about pre-requisites. Can you give yourself martial versatility: slashing grace when you don't have the prerequisites for slashing grace with other weapons?
There's a good chance that that one has an FAQ answer. I'm not going to look it up, but you should. It's possible that you'd need to take martial versatility several times.

I believe it is assumed, so long as any weapon in the weapon group satisfies the feat pre-reqs, the original chosen weapon is replaceable. So, even if no other weapons meet the pre-reqs, you can still take martial versatility... just no weapons would be able to replace the original.

Quote:


Second:
Jotungrip doesn't actually change the nature of the weapon. Slashing grace works with one-handed weapons. So trying to get it to work with jotungrip is going to involve an argument as to whether the phrase:
Jotungrip wrote:
"The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like."

means it counts as one-handed for feats. Note that the two examples both deal explicitly with damage dealt, not feats or class features that don't relate to damage.

The similarity between the two listed feats/abilities is that both check whether the weapon wielded is one or two-handed. They then apply appropriate damage accordingly. Thus, the feats and abilities that check to see if the weapon wielded is one-handed or two-handed see the wielded weapon as one-handed. That is why, in the case of power attack, it would not do additional damage on top of the original +2 per -1. Also, slashing grace is a damage dealing feat.

Quote:


Third:
Rule 7 applies. Rule 7 always applies. Nobody has to play with you. There are going to be some people who look at this and then either leave or tell you to leave.

True, but it is not exactly game breaking to apply the feats in this way. It's expensive feat-wise, does not make the character over powerful. And, should be quite legal considering, to the character, he is using wielding a slashing weapon one-handed. And does so before taking martial versatility.

Quote:


Fourth:
Even if someone lets you play this and rules that it all works, you're going to miss a lot. The off-hand ECB isn't a light weapon, so that's -6/-6 (including the Jotungrip) to all attacks. And you don't have weapon focus (ECB). So you'll miss a lot.

That's true. Wait for the update which has him using a klar in the off-hand.

Scarab Sages

Updated, using a klar and elven curve blade. Thank you for all the comments!

Human Barbarian(Titan Mauler)2/Swashbuckler 10

STR 7 - (9 for encumbrance)
DEX 17 - (+2 racial) +1 at 4 = 20
CON 15 - +1 at 8 = 16
INT 9 - +1 at 12 = 10
WIS 10 -
CHA 14 -

Traits:
Muscle of the Society
Irrepressible

Feats:
1 Weapon Focus(scimitar), |Human| Slashing Grace(scimitar)
3 Two Weapon Fighting
5 Double Slice
6 |Combat| Martial Versatility(Slashing Grace)
7 Improved Two Weapon Fighting
9 Imp Shield Bash
10 Shield Slam
11 Greater Two Weapon Fighting

I was looking at taking Swashbuckler at first level, followed by two levels of Titan mauler for Jotungrip. This would keep the character viable while waiting for 6th when he picks up MV so he can use an elven curve blade in one hand. He will also be usind a kalr in the off hand, which counts as a slashing shield and is also in the same weapon group as scimitar.

Note, even though he is human he will have elven weapon familiarity.

Scarab Sages

wow, okay, never mind. I missed that the klar was one-handed, not light. Back to the drawing board...


Just because you can merge puss in boots with Conan the barbarian does not mean you should.

-MD


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Okay, I'm going to put this here and then leave the thread, because what this situation lacks is RAW, and since we have both read all the relevant rules there is nothing further to say.

Lorewalker wrote:
I believe it is assumed, so long as any weapon in the weapon group satisfies the feat pre-reqs, the original chosen weapon is replaceable. So, even if no other weapons meet the pre-reqs, you can still take martial versatility... just no weapons would be able to replace the original.

Okay, see that "assumed" there? If you're going to run this live, you need not to have an "assumed" there. You need to have an FAQ confirming it within PFS, or a GM who says it's cool on the day. If you don't have an FAQ, I would expect table variation.

Lorewalker wrote:
The similarity between the two listed feats/abilities is that both check whether the weapon wielded is one or two-handed.

True, but they also both relate specifically to damage. You do not have clear RAW here supporting any interpretation relating to factors other than damage, and trying to say you do is not going to get you anywhere. You probably can't and certainly shouldn't be berating GMs into allowing something this unclear. You are in grey area territory and should expect table variation, unless you have an official FAQ supporting you doing this.

Lorewalker wrote:
True, but it is not exactly game breaking to apply the feats in this way. It's expensive feat-wise, does not make the character over powerful. And, should be quite legal considering, to the character, he is using wielding a slashing weapon one-handed. And does so before taking martial versatility.

As a GM (of other games, and potentially pathfinder if I can be bothered) I would not allow this. I don't think an archetype that exists so musclebound barbarians can fight giants better should be used combined with a dashing and agile class to create a human character that can use the only specifically elf weapon in the game better than elves can. An elf can't take slashing grace with an ECB, even if they have jotungrip. Why should a human be allowed to?

(that was a rhetorical question)

All told, my advice is "search for an FAQ on martial versatility, and expect table variation".

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