Hi all,
This is my first Pathfinder game, or any table top RPG (unless you count Hero Quest back in the 90's). I usually get bored with games because of how repetitive they can be. However, I've been doing a lot of research just to learn the game and I can't believe how varied this game can be. Super excited.
I'll be running a campaign with only two other PC's. No need to tell me this isn't advised - it's all we can muster up. The two other players are completely new as well and the GM says he's going to go 'easy' on us. The GM is new too so this should be a learning experience for everyone.
The advice I need is what class to pick. I know. I know. Just pick a class that sounds fun to me. Great answer, but hard for me to know what will be fun since I've never played before. Here's a little background info to aid in your advice:
1. The two other PC's will be running a Paladin and a Sorcerer. Most likely the sorcerer will make all the wrong decisions at the beginning levels and will grab lackluster damaging spells instead of helpful battlefield controlling Orisons (I know this because I played a practice dungeon with him already). The Paladin will most likely just be a meat tank.
2. We are limited to the CRB and the APG
3. To fill in the holes of the team I figure that we will need either someone to control the battlefield, someone who can sneak and scout, or someone who does a lot of damage.
4. I was interested in multiclassing with a Rogue and another class, but I realized that a lot of the damage a Rogue can deal is with Sneak Attack, and that if you don't keep up your levels in Rogue, it tends to fall off.
5. The builds I've been considering are a Bones Oracle Necromancer and the Mist Assassin. However, I'm moving away from the Mist Assassin since because of point #4. The Bones Oracle seems fun, but I'm not sure if my attention span can be held with the Cleric Spell list.
6. I'm not only looking for Optimized builds, and I'm not only looking for fun builds. I want to have the best of both. Feeling like I'm contributing to the team is important to me.
With all that said, I'm really open minded. I look forward to hearing from y'all and I want to thank you guys/gals in advance.
Thanks!
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Well, my favorite is the Cavalier, but idk how well that works with your group. I would recommend something with a companion, like a Druid or a ranger. This is because
1) I have a pet, and it's great.
2) Your party is really small, and animal companions help round things out a bit. Just don't depend on him/her too much.
3) Rangers shore up your party with a ranged physical attacker, and you can also be melee if you like.
4) Druids get wildshape, which is very versatile. The spells aren't the most amazing imo, but it's a cool class.
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Try this
For that group, I'd consider an alchemist with a number of the rogue skills. You can use bombs for direct damage and decent battlefield control, with stuff like tanglefoot bomb, stink bomb, and grease bomb. Alchemists have a high Int and decent skills, so you can be the knowledge guy and fill a lot of the rogue's shoes. Pick up Infusion to hand out buffs to your allies when they need it, and if you want to fight yourself you can take Feral Mutagen (as long as you have decent physical stats already).
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3. To fill in the holes of the team I figure that we will need either someone to control the battlefield, someone who can sneak and scout, or someone who does a lot of damage.
Play a druid and you can help fulfill all three.
1) Druids are some of the best battlefield control casters in the game. Not as good as wizards, but very solid none the less. They also have a number of really good long duration buffs which will help the party.
2) Druids can become tiny and diminutive animals, often with special senses. You will easily be able to make a great scout using this. You can go ahead, sneak under doors and cracks, look inside, and then go inform the party. Also, if things go bad while scouting you have a ton of escape options that rogues only wish they had.
3) Animal Companion. Excellent damage dealers with a lot of stay. They will fall off at the highest levels, but by then you'll should understand the game more and, just to be blunt, first game for everyone isn't likely to go that high anyway. Its also an extra body which you'll will desperately need.
4) Flexibility. Druids have insane flexibility and the ability to change your spells daily cannot be undersold.
Anyway, thats my advice. My secondary advice is summoner but thats quite a bit more complicated, and they way I build my summoners is hard. If you like the druid (or summoner) I'd be happy to go into a more in depth build if thats something you want.
Wow! Great advice!
SteelDraco:
I was considering an alchemist for a quick second. The Mr. Hyde build was appealing but with the only resources for it being the CRB and the APG, I felt like there wasn't a lot to help him out. Any good resources you would recommend for the Alchemist besides Ogre's guide?
Under A Bleeding Sun:
I'd consider a Druid. A summoner as well. One of the reasons why I was drawn to the Mr. Hyde build were the multiple natural attacks. I've heard a Synthesist is pretty good at this, but alas, I don't have access to that Archetype. More advice on these is more than welcomed!
Any other suggestions? How do you guys feel about a Bones Oracle Necromancer?
Thanks as always!
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Druids are very complicated for a new party.
Have you considered a Ranger?
A 'Switch-hitter' Ranger can go front-line with the Paladin or be artillery with the Sorcerer while the animal does melee. A Ranger also has a great range of skills which neither the Sorcerer nor Paladin has.
Paladins and Sorcerers are two of the most fun classes, it is a good idea your friends chose them. However, they are both weak on skills and you don't need another Cha class.
Druid, Ranger, Alchemist or possibly Witch are your best bets. Druid and Witch are very complicated for new players. Bomb-throwing Alchemist or archer Ranger are less complex. Importantly, neither is at all dull to play. In all my years playing, nobody has regretted playing a Ranger.
Druids are very complicated for a new party.
Have you considered a Ranger?
A 'Switch-hitter' Ranger can go front-line with the Paladin or be artillery with the Sorcerer while the animal does melee. A Ranger also has a great range of skills which neither the Sorcerer nor Paladin has.
Paladins and Sorcerers are two of the most fun classes, it is a good idea your friends chose them. However, they are both weak on skills and you don't need another Cha class.
Druid, Ranger, Alchemist or possibly Witch are your best bets. Druid and Witch are very complicated for new players. Bomb-throwing Alchemist or archer Ranger are less complex. Importantly, neither is at all dull to play. In all my years playing, nobody has regretted playing a Ranger.
Hrm. Not sure if I'm sold on Ranger. An archer build appeals to me. An animal companion sounds great. But just sitting back and shooting doesn't seem that challenging to me. Can you explain this choice a little more?
Also, I'm not adverse to more complex classes. So far the druid appeals to me. Going off of a Treanmonk Guide for Druids, I'm leaning more towards a heavy casting Druid for the better battlefield control.
However, Captain K.'s advice of a ranger has me considering a Fighter/Wiz into Arcane Archer build.
So many options! Can anyone make sense of this all??? Haha
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Try this
This Tool will actually help a bit more.
According to the Tool: Sorcer/Paladin is actually a pretty rounded combination. You get tanky/squishy, ranged/melee, area/single target, and even divine/arcane. We don't need any more magic. That's good news for you: it means you have more choice in what you can do. Skills are the only real low point here, and ranged damage could use a bit more umph.
The top choices are: Urban/Ranged Barbarian, Zen Archer, Rogue, and Gunslinger.
Oh, your basically core only, so Treantmonks guide is great for you. I also recommend the caster centric one, but use the animal companion instead of the domain. I disagree with treantmonk there and you'll could use another body, really.
Oh, your basically core only, so Treantmonks guide is great for you. I also recommend the caster centric one, but use the animal companion instead of the domain. I disagree with treantmonk there and you'll could use another body, really.
Great! I think I'll probably go with that advice as my character. The Druid provides the battlefield control I was looking for that I felt the other Divine Casters didn't provide. Oracles and Clerics seem better as support/debuffers than controllers.
I do see the benefit of a ranged physical attacker like one that Broken Zenith suggests. If I were to go with a physical ranged attacker, anyone have any recommendations? I've already heard about the Ranger from Captain K. but I still need some convincing on that one. Can anyone suggest a different physical ranged character? I'm looking for ones that contribute to a team, are fun, and more complex than just lock an' load.
Thanks all!
Try thisThis Tool will actually help a bit more.
According to the Tool: Sorcer/Paladin is actually a pretty rounded combination. You get tanky/squishy, ranged/melee, area/single target, and even divine/arcane. We don't need any more magic. That's good news for you: it means you have more choice in what you can do. Skills are the only real low point here, and ranged damage could use a bit more umph.
The top choices are: Urban/Ranged Barbarian, Zen Archer, Rogue, and Gunslinger.
That's awesome. By the way, assuming you are the one who runs Zenith Games, it is one of my favorite resources. Thank you so much for your work.
I'm looking for ones that contribute to a team, are fun, and more complex than just lock an' load.
Bard that focuses on archery. Make sure that you pick put Arcane Strike for some penalty free damage.
All your feats will go toward archery but you also have your spells and team improving performances, most notably inspire courage. You can also be the Jack of all trades knowledge guy.
rangers do go a lot farther than "just lock an' load" (you're thinking of fighters, lol). rangers make great archers because they have full BAB (which is nice for hitting and grants earlier access to many feats than a 3/4 BAB class) and their bonus feats let them pick up some great archery feats way earlier than anyone else. beyond that:
- they get 6+ skill points every level which gives them some useful options for other things to do. need a scout? well, stealth is a class skill and dex is your main combat stat. wish you knew what that monster was? well, knowledge:nature and dungeoneering are both class skills and that covers a fair number of creatures. frustrated that enemies keep sneaking up on you? perception is a class skill... i could go on but i think you get my point.
- they're casters. they get a small amount of control with spells like entangle and hold animal. they have some decent buffs (especially aspect of the falcon and gravity bow right away). and, they have cure spells on their list which means they can use wands with no UMD checks.
- they get an animal companion. this is kind of a mixed blessing without access to the Boon Companion feat but an extra creature on your team is very useful (extra damage, extra hp, extra actions each round...) and if your new GM has his 'kids gloves' on it should be fine.
if you don't like rangers that's fine but i thought (since you're new) someone should point out some of their complexities. if Zen Archer is available to you that's another solid option for a physical/ranged character.
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I'd go with a nice bard. (I prefer melee bards - but archery is fine too. My PFS bard has never run into anyone with higher AC since level 2 - so he generally tanks.)
Helps the paladin with front-lining.
Buffs everyone.
Can scount.
Arguably the best skill monkey in the game.
Can use illusions for battlefield control.
Between a bard & paladin you've got decent healing going.
Basically - the bard is the classic jack of all trades master of none.
They don't really quite fill any of the 4 classic roles especially well. But bards are amazing at filling in the gaps of a small group or being a fifth wheel.
I'd approach this from the RP standpoint actually, since it's your first game.
Having a Paladin around can be great for role-play. Do you think the Sorcerer will be conflicting with him? If so, play the middle-ground peacemaker. If not, maybe play edgier (Rogue and Bones Oracle works well actually).
Bard does seem to be a good fit (adding more healing, support, skills), plus they can easily be either peacemaker or 'rogue' in the literary sense.
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That's awesome. By the way, assuming you are the one who runs Zenith Games, it is one of my favorite resources. Thank you so much for your work.Try thisThis Tool will actually help a bit more.
According to the Tool: Sorcer/Paladin is actually a pretty rounded combination. You get tanky/squishy, ranged/melee, area/single target, and even divine/arcane. We don't need any more magic. That's good news for you: it means you have more choice in what you can do. Skills are the only real low point here, and ranged damage could use a bit more umph.
The top choices are: Urban/Ranged Barbarian, Zen Archer, Rogue, and Gunslinger.
My pleasure, glad you like it!
Since neither your paladin nor your sorceror will be any good at identifying monsters, you should build a character that can do that. This will boost your party’s survival more than any other advantage.
I would recommend an archer inquisitor, myself. A bard would be a strong option, but that would mean three charisma-heavy characters...nothing wrong with that, exactly, but most players like to have their own niche. You could also build an alchemist or magus to be a strong identifier, or a wizard, or some lore-focued cleric or oracle. But your party will need perception and sense motive and monster identification, and a inquisitor brings those in spades. They also make deadly combatants with a lot of options thanks to judgement, bane and teamwork feats, and they can skim the best of a broad spell list.
Thanks all! Wow. Just so many great tips.
I know that saving throws are great and therefore a Bard could really help this team. Having ranged physical attack would be great too. So Hawktitan's suggestion of a Bard specializing in archery would be a good choice. I also forgot that Bards get magic! Totally going to make one soon. I've been more interested in the Arcane Duelist build in the past.
My questions is: aren't Bards better for physical allies than magic users? I swear I've read that somewhere.
The default bard is 'more helpful' to physical allies because of Inspire Courage, then later spells like Good Hope. Those abilities also help yourself though too, plus any ray attacks from the sorcerer.
Arcane Duelist is a fine archetype but my gut feeling in this case is to stick with the default bard to keep your skills and knowledges up.