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I don't see the ACG as being more errate-y than any other Paizo book. The "possible errors" thread for APG has had about the same amount of posts 1 month after the release, and I don't recall anybody here shouting that APG was a failure.
Heck, I believe most Bestiaries have far more errors. But, being GM-side books they never fall under the same OCD scrutiny that player-side books are subjected to. People don't get so passionately ... I mean, nerdragely invested in monsters like they do with classes and other player material.
The fact that this thread is full of people whose forum activity is mostly limited to bashing whatever they see that has Paizo logo on it hardly surprises me as well.
One ACG criticism which I belive warrants some merit is the issue of disjunction between the class chapter (which was, AFAIK, written by Jason/Sean/Stephen) and the archetypes and feats chapters which are, again I'm guessing, outsourced to freelancers mostly. As a result, there's less coherency and consistency than it would be if everything would be written just by 3 guys. Of course the question is, whether such model is necessary to be able to put the book in a reasonable time at all.
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I can only speak for my experiences, but after reading the ACG I was so dissapointed I looked into more 3PP that could act as a new source of content for myself and my group and alternate systems such as DnD 5E, Rogue Trader, Numenera, Monster Hunter International, and Dark Heresy 2EI'm sorry you had such a negative experience with the book, Dragon. While I don't agree with the premise of this thread in general, it is true that last year had a couple of significant challenges that may have contributed to some of the problems you cite.
Many of those factors (losing a core member of the design team, developing a bonus hardcover superadventure to support a huge Kickstarter campaign, and developing a book as visually complex and ambitious as the Strategy Guide) are not likely to occur in 2015, so I am personally optimistic about the future.
I am working on Occult Adventures (next year's Gen Con release) as a freelancer, and have had lots of opportunity to participate in the overall conception of the book. I've also worked closely with each member of the design team, all of whom have been uniformly terrific and on-point in every discussion I've had with them.
That book is going to be fantastic.
If we fell short of your expectations with the Advanced Class Guide, I'm confident that the books coming up will regain some of that faith you have lost. I have a lot of faith in them, and in those yet to come.
Honestly if this had been a blog post, some critics would be a lot less worried about Paizo. But the only blog we got was about the misprjnted title. When a company stays quiet about a mistake, it makes us wonder what they are doing, or if they even care. I'm glad to finally see devs weigh in on the product, but it has been a month since the ACG release. In that time, ive already seen people return their hard copies and jump ship to 5th ed or other RPGs. And when someone asks me if they should get the hardcover, i can't lie to them about its issues. It's hard to defend Paizo when, at least up until now, there weren't any public, formal statements about the ACG. So I'm glad we finally got word about this, but I really wish it was sooner and more readily available to the public.
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I'd be very interested to see your list, particularly with regard to the adventures. I am always hunting for different things, and this statement has piqued my curiosity.For me and for a lot of people the "Number One Publisher for Pathfinder" isn't necessarily Paizo. There are several 3PP that I believe publish more unique and balanced classes, more amazing adventures, and have more open dev-player relations.
I'm including campaign settings and adventures from both Pathfinder and 3.x, given that they're so compatible.
The Lost Lands, by Frog God Games/Necromancer Games
Midgard, by Kobold Press
Eberron, by Wizards of the Coast
Obsidian Apocalypse, by LPJ Design
Frog God Games/Necromancer Games - too many to list. This includes both the mega-adventures that almost always get mentioned (Rappan Athuk, Slumbering Tsar, Razor Coast), but also some of their smaller adventures are amazing as well. Spire of Iron & Crystal is a particular favorite of mine. If Paizo is the gold standard for adventures, then FGG is platinum or diamond.
Adventure-a-Week - Rise of the Drow, Snow White
EN Publishing - War of the Burning Sky (3.5, but to be converted to PFRPG), Zeitgeist
Fire Mountain Games - Way of the Wicked (it's a shame that Throne of Night, despite also having high quality thus far, has been overshadowed by the delays and lack of communication)
Dreamscarred Press - The psionics are the most noteable, but this is one of a few 3PP that pretty much rate an auto-buy from me, whatever it is they put out. If you like psionics, get Ultimate Psionics. If you don't like psionics, get it, read it, and discover that you actually do like them after all.
Frog God Games/Necromancer Games - The Tomes of Horror. All 4 of them.
Flying Buffalo - Grimtooth's Traps. 'nuff said. (OK, not actually for PFRPG, but they're system neutral)
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I don't see the ACG as being more errate-y than any other Paizo book. The "possible errors" thread for APG has had about the same amount of posts 1 month after the release, and I don't recall anybody here shouting that APG was a failure.
This is actually something I've been wondering about. I noticed a lot more errors in the ACG than other books, but also read it a lot more closely.
Getting an informed decision will involve going through several more books with a fine tooth comb, which doesn't sound like something I'm doing soon.
Of the list in the first post, I haven't used Mythic Adventures or the Advanced Class Guide yet. I have used Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Magic, both of which improved my game in small but noticeable ways and haven't caused any problems.
The APG, on the other hand, has been a mixed bag. Some good, but also some things that really rub me the wrong way.
So I personally don't buy the narrative of decreasing quality. Even assuming the other books were flawless, I'd rather have the ACG on my shelf than Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Campaign, Ultimate Equipment, or the Game Master's Guide.
Editing, art, layout, balance, and design consistency can all be important. But those aren't the things that get a book down off the shelf. Cool ideas get a book off the shelf. And the ACG has cool ideas in spades.
That said, we might be using the bolt ace in October and it seems to be missing some pieces. Any answer on how that's being dealt with (or not dealt with) would be cool, but my group running into a problem doesn't make the ACG a failure any more than it makes the APG a failure.
Cheers!
Landon
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But I am hearing more and more about problems. All of the things mentioned earlier in this thread are brought up to me regularly, and people question why they are even possible. Things NOT mentioned in this thread are the consistently terrible binding jobs that AP volumes now have, or the all-over-the-map quality of the Pathfinder Battles line. When they look at WotC books and minis they don't find these problems nearly as often. When they look at Fantasy Flight books and minis they are noticeably lacking here, too. Why are problems found with such frequency in Paizo's products? And why do Paizo's products so often miss their publication dates, while these other companies don't?
I have been doing this crazy job for almost thirty years now. One thing I have learned is that the bigger a company gets, the more people complain. I think you get to a critical mass of customers where:
a) there are just more people buying your products so even if a small number are dissatisfied, it seems like a lot more since it is a small percentage of a larger number, ie. more people
b) people start expecting more from you because you are getting larger—when you are smaller, people aren't quite as critical about what you do, writing it off to "they are a small company"
The APs have been printed by the same company now for close to five years. They have done the vast majority of them. We haven't changed the spec for the books. We haven't moved to a "cheaper" supplier or cut the spec to save a few bucks. So when things change, like a binding not being as good as previous even though we are doing exactly everything exactly the same way, then we start looking into it. It is tough, since you subcontract out for the printing and it isn't something you control in-house. But we always try to improve things when there are problems.
The Pathfinder Battles line of products is another example of something out of our control. We approve miniatures that look great and are very angry when they come out not near the ones we approved. Trust me, there have been some tense meetings to talk about those problems. But to say the WotC miniatures don't have those problems is just plain wrong. I collect all sorts of prepainted fantasy miniatures, and WotC wasn't immune to the crappy paint job every so often either.
As for missing publication dates, we have always done that. From the beginning. Without fail. Do you know the main reason? Because I refuse to send a book to the printer early just to hit a release date. If my staff doesn't feel it is ready, then we won't ship. The upcoming Strategy Guide is a great example. We wanted that out over a year ago, but it wasn't living up to what we wanted, so we kept working on it until we were happy with where it ended up. I would so much rather miss release dates and have a better product than hit them like clockwork and not be happy with what we put out.
Now we don't just sit here and say, "Oh well, that's life!" I have had so many meetings to dissect why we miss release dates and what we can do to prevent that from happening in the future that I am sick of them. We constantly meet with our printers to figure out how to do things better. We have monthly phone conferences with WizKids to do the same for the Pathfinder Battles line.
To close, we work very, very hard on making the best products that we possibly can. Everyone at Paizo is invested in making the highest quality products. We strive for perfection. But we are human. We make mistakes. We miss errors. Wrong logos end up on book covers. Poorly worded spells or feats or archetypes make it into books. Or card games. It isn't from lack of effort or time spent. It is because we are human and we make mistakes.
All I can promise is that we will do our very best all the time and strive to do better when we fail ourselves. My staff works their butts off each and every day and I am proud of the work we put out. That is all I and Paizo can offer. Our best efforts.
-Lisa
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Thoughtful things.
You are my favorite company since the early days of TSR. I can't think of a lot that will change that (whether on your part or the part of other companies).
You have proven that you know how to run your business the way you want to run it, and I will always respect that. The fact that you are willing to come onto these boards and give someone like me the attention to post things like you have in this thread makes me respect you that much more.
Keep doing your best; you'll never suffer for it. And because of it you will remain a very important part of my own business. Never doubt that.
Do you know the main reason? Because I refuse to send a book to the printer early just to hit a release date. If my staff doesn't feel it is ready, then we won't ship.
Was the ACG an exception to that rule?
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Do you know the main reason? Because I refuse to send a book to the printer early just to hit a release date. If my staff doesn't feel it is ready, then we won't ship.Was the ACG an exception to that rule?
It seems you are being antagonistic now, but it could be the internet. Since Gencon releases have more errors typically the answer is more likely that, they did not notice the errors for (insert reason, to include lack of time to completely look over the book as needed)*, which is different from "I know these errors exist, but instead of fixing them we will ship it to the printer anyway".
*I will expand on this-->Being on a time crunch and not actually having time to playtest the final version of the book could make it seem ok when it is not. So you could give it the "thumbs up" when you shouldn't. Typically not playtesting the final version has been working. This time it did not.
Do I wish the book had turned out differently? sure
Hounding them about the process won't help though. The next book will be a sign of whether this is a trend or an anomaly.
I think you want an apology, but if they give it to you just to get you to stop complaining, does it really count, and how would you know if it was sincere or not?
I would really just like a real aplology and not the kind where I'm told I didn't like the book because my standards were too high. Preferably a statement more public than a PM or post in this thread.
My standards are pretty average and thats why I even own RPG books in the first place, I expect some level of balance issues and rules errors. I don't believe that the ACG was bad because my standards were too high, I think it was bad because Paizo can and has done better. When people hear a core Paizo book they hear that they are going to get a quality product worth their money and it was advertized as such. I wouldn't go far enough to say that it was false advertising, but I do feel lied to and betrayed after all those blog posts hyping up a product that doesn't deliver.
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I would really just like a real aplology and not the kind where I'm told I didn't like the book because my standards were too high. Preferably a statement more public than a PM or post in this thread.
My standards are pretty average and thats why I even own RPG books in the first place, I expect some level of balance issues and rules errors. I don't believe that the ACG was bad because my standards were too high, I think it was bad because Paizo can and has done better. When people hear a core Paizo book they hear that they are going to get a quality product worth their money and it was advertized as such. I wouldn't go far enough to say that it was false advertising, but I do feel lied to and betrayed after all those blog posts hyping up a product that doesn't deliver.
I thought so, but you can't force someone into a "legit" apology. It is like when your parents force you to say sorry to your brother or sister but you dont really mean it, if they do it just to appease the fans/customers.
I am in no way implying that is what Paizo would do.
I purchased a bestiary where an entire paragraph was just gone from the book, among other errors, so I understand how you feel after getting a hardback that could have been better.
If you have an end point to your questions I guess you should get to that point*, but I don't think they dropped the ball on purpose.
*At some point they will move on to other things beside this thread, simply because they probably do have other things to do, and then you might start to feel ignored, even if that is not the case.
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My standards are pretty average and thats why I even own RPG books in the first place, I expect some level of balance issues and rules errors. I don't believe that the ACG was bad because my standards were too high, I think it was bad because Paizo can and has done better. When people hear a core Paizo book they hear that they are going to get a quality product worth their money and it was advertized as such. I wouldn't go far enough to say that it was false advertising, but I do feel lied to and betrayed after all those blog posts hyping up a product that doesn't deliver.
I'm sorry, but if you feel "lied to and betrayed" your standards are not average.
The average Pathfinder player doesn't get the ACG. They don't read blog posts. They don't post on the message boards. And they certainly aren't so emotionally involved with the product that they'd feel betrayed by the sort of errors people are reporting.
None of which is to say that you're feelings are invalid. They're just way, way stronger than average.
Cheers!
Landon
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I would really just like a real aplology and not the kind where I'm told I didn't like the book because my standards were too high. Preferably a statement more public than a PM or post in this thread.
My standards are pretty average and thats why I even own RPG books in the first place, I expect some level of balance issues and rules errors. I don't believe that the ACG was bad because my standards were too high, I think it was bad because Paizo can and has done better. When people hear a core Paizo book they hear that they are going to get a quality product worth their money and it was advertized as such. I wouldn't go far enough to say that it was false advertising, but I do feel lied to and betrayed after all those blog posts hyping up a product that doesn't deliver.
Phew! I thought we're looking at a class action lawsuit here.
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You're right Wraith, I'll tone it down. Thanks for helping me think, sometimes it's hard to think outside the mindset of an echobox.
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Do you know the main reason? Because I refuse to send a book to the printer early just to hit a release date. If my staff doesn't feel it is ready, then we won't ship.Was the ACG an exception to that rule?
Nope. We wouldn't have sent it if we didn't think it was ready to go.
The problem is, people feel we should be perfect. We won't ever be. We work really hard to make things as perfect as possible, and then we send it to the printer. Could we have caught a few more things if we had waited three months? Six months? A year? Five years? Sure. But even after five years, we wouldn't have caught every mistake. And the company would be out of business without a new product released. :)
One thing I have learned is that you can never be perfect. You can strive for it, but you'll never hit it. No matter how good you are. So you do your best, put the hard work in, and then you let it out into the wild. Hopefully you didn't miss something bad. It happens. But not from lack of trying.
We felt the ACG was ready to go. Just like we did with every one of our other books.
-Lisa
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Since Gencon releases have more errors typically the answer is more likely that, they did not notice the errors for (insert reason, to include lack of time to completely look over the book as needed)*, which is different from "I know these errors exist, but instead of fixing them we will ship it to the printer anyway".
I want to squash one thing right here and now. GenCon releases don't ever have less editing passes than other releases. Matter of fact, they probably get a few more since they are usually our flagship product for the year and we want to make extra sure that it is awesome.
-Lisa
That is the kind of answer I was looking for from someone at Paizo, thank you.
Since Gencon releases have more errors typically the answer is more likely that, they did not notice the errors for (insert reason, to include lack of time to completely look over the book as needed)*, which is different from "I know these errors exist, but instead of fixing them we will ship it to the printer anyway".I want to squash one thing right here and now. GenCon releases don't ever have less editing passes than other releases. Matter of fact, they probably get a few more since they are usually our flagship product for the year and we want to make extra sure that it is awesome.
-Lisa
I was not saying it gets less passes or less care. I was stating a trend and possible reasons why.
As an example if I am writing a novel as opposed to a short story there are more chances for mistakes even if I put more effort into fixing the novel.
Thanks for the clarification though. :)
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WotC wasn't immune to the crappy paint job every so often either
As someone who purchased at least a thousand, this is absolutely true. There were some real stinkers...but there were some really good ones, too. Just like Pathfinder Battles.
Of course it's a lot easier to overlook a dog when the cost per figure is $1.25, rather than $3+, but that's hardly Paizo's fault. After all, Paizo doesn't have Hasbro (who I hear knows a thing or two about large scale toy manufacturing) behind 'em.
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I appreciate the dev comments. I understand that errors happen and nobody should expect absolute perfection. My biggest problem was (until now) little public dev comments about the editorial issues. No blog posts and little word for a month after the ACG. That's really what I wanted. Just a blog or thread that has what Lisa and Erik typed for the consumers to see, perhaps condensed down. It really helps put our nerves at ease and lets us know that you're reading our concerns. The comments here have put me at ease and while I wish this was more public for ease of finding, I'm very happy that the devs have come out to address these issues with us. Thanks for the responses.
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This won't be a popular response, but perhaps if the very clear priority of keeping the LGBT flag waving wasn't quite so front and center, if the social engineering and universal representation were left to the players and GM's themselves, the focus on these many other issues presented might be greater.
We can't get answers to any of dozens of questions in the FAQ, have classes coming out after months of playtests which immediately need tons of errata and the much-heralded Mythic ruleset is broken pretty much as soon as you get into the meat of it... but hey, we all know EXACTLY how much a sex-change potion will cost!
I'm not saying the two are related, but in earlier pathfinder materials, the focus wasn't so great, the constant LGBT banner wasn't so zealously waved and many of these issues weren't near so pronounced either. Can we skip the social agenda, cut the rules bloat and just get back to what Paizo has always been best at - telling great stories through gaming?
This won't be a popular response, but perhaps if the very clear priority of keeping the race flag waving wasn't quite so front and center, if the social engineering and universal representation were left to the players and GM's themselves, the focus on these many other issues presented might be greater.
We can't get answers to any of dozens of questions in the FAQ, have classes coming out after months of playtests which immediately need tons of errata and the much-heralded Mythic ruleset is broken pretty much as soon as you get into the meat of it... but hey, we all know EXACTLY where black people live in Golarion!
I'm not saying the two are related, but in earlier pathfinder materials, the focus wasn't so great, the constant race banner wasn't so zealously waved and many of these issues weren't near so pronounced either. Can we skip the social agenda, cut the rules bloat and just get back to what Paizo has always been best at - telling great stories through gaming?
This won't be a popular response, but perhaps if the very clear priority of keeping the LGBT flag waving wasn't quite so front and center, if the social engineering and universal representation were left to the players and GM's themselves, the focus on these many other issues presented might be greater.
We can't get answers to any of dozens of questions in the FAQ, have classes coming out after months of playtests which immediately need tons of errata and the much-heralded Mythic ruleset is broken pretty much as soon as you get into the meat of it... but hey, we all know EXACTLY how much a sex-change potion will cost!
I'm not saying the two are related, but in earlier pathfinder materials, the focus wasn't so great, the constant LGBT banner wasn't so zealously waved and many of these issues weren't near so pronounced either. Can we skip the social agenda, cut the rules bloat and just get back to what Paizo has always been best at - telling great stories through gaming?
This won't be a popular response, but perhaps if the very clear priority of keeping the race flag waving wasn't quite so front and center, if the social engineering and universal representation were left to the players and GM's themselves, the focus on these many other issues presented might be greater.
We can't get answers to any of dozens of questions in the FAQ, have classes coming out after months of playtests which immediately need tons of errata and the much-heralded Mythic ruleset is broken pretty much as soon as you get into the meat of it... but hey, we all know EXACTLY where black people live in Golarion!
I'm not saying the two are related, but in earlier pathfinder materials, the focus wasn't so great, the constant race banner wasn't so zealously waved and many of these issues weren't near so pronounced either. Can we skip the social agenda, cut the rules bloat and just get back to what Paizo has always been best at - telling great stories through gaming?
Could you give examples of these banners being waved?
Can you give an example of how making a country, black, asian, latino, and so on somehow affects the quality of books(the book in question and other books)?
By my logic you only need to say "this country is here", and provide some flavor, which is a lot easier than balancing feat/class/spell against _____. There is no correlation that I can see, but I will wait for your response.
I answered the "rules bloat" topic in an earlier post. Short version. It is subjective, and telling stories is not the end game.
post 1
Also, the various races and countries were represented when Paizo was promoting 3.5 rules. This is not new.
Wraith, I think you missed the <satire> </satire> in that post.
Yeah I was trying to point out how bigoted Wiggz post was. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
I don't implied emotion in text well it seems. Oh well, carry on. :)
Yeah I was trying to point out how bigoted Wiggz post was. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
Yeah Sadly I have read messages on the internets that were not satire that say similar things to what you stated...
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Yeah I was trying to point out how bigoted Wiggz post was. Sorry if that wasn't clear.Yeah Sadly I have read messages on the internets that were not satire that say similar things to what you stated...
In your defense...Poe's law
In your defense...Poe's lawYeah I was trying to point out how bigoted Wiggz post was. Sorry if that wasn't clear.Yeah Sadly I have read messages on the internets that were not satire that say similar things to what you stated...
The verbatim re-use of the quoted text was a fairly big give-away...
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I tend to complain a bit here and there (mostly about mythic to be honest) but I really like the ACG. I think the class designs is about as good as it has ever been (better than CRB, on par with UM), and I actively encourage my players to use the new classes.
Are they perfect, nope, there are quite a number of open questions and faq requests when it comes to the them, but that seems to be the nature of the beast.
If you work on a class through several versions, you are bound to accumulate certain assumptions on how the class works, even if those things aren't explicitly called out. Since I just started playing a hunter, the skirmisher trick issue and some of the primal companion issues are very relevant to me. Your mileage may vary.
It certainly isn't the worst product paizo has ever published, that honor goes certainly to Gnomes of Golaron, soooo mannnny colors .....^^
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I'm sorry you had such a negative experience with the book, Dragon. While I don't agree with the premise of this thread in general, it is true that last year had a couple of significant challenges that may have contributed to some of the problems you cite.
Many of those factors (losing a core member of the design team, developing a bonus hardcover superadventure to support a huge Kickstarter campaign, and developing a book as visually complex and ambitious as the Strategy Guide) are not likely to occur in 2015, so I am personally optimistic about the future.
I am working on Occult Adventures (next year's Gen Con release) as a freelancer, and have had lots of opportunity to participate in the overall conception of the book. I've also worked closely with each member of the design team, all of whom have been uniformly terrific and on-point in every discussion I've had with them.
That book is going to be fantastic.
If we fell short of your expectations with the Advanced Class Guide, I'm confident that the books coming up will regain some of that faith you have lost. I have a lot of faith in them, and in those yet to come.
Erik,
I have full faith that Occult Adventures is going to rock, for the same reason I suspect that the ACG missed a lot of marks.When I interviewed you at PAX last year, I saw the excitement in your eyes when you talked about a type of occult psychic magic as a possible future endeavor for Paizo, and the possibilities that you guys might explore there. You mentioned how other members of the staff were also very interested in the idea, and since you've announced Occult Adventures we've heard from other people brought on to the project and that same ecitement can be seen universally. It's that love.
I think even if the blatant editing errors were not present in the ACG there's still be a higher than normal dissatisfaction with it, and I think that can be traced back to the very idea behind the book, the concept of hybrid classes. The idea feels lazy, the premise limits design space, and I suspect much of what's in there of being there because someone else wanted it, not because the staff was actually in love with the idea. The Slayer and Brawler, while very neatly designed and laid out, feel like formulaic contributions, filling teen-tiny niches in the design space. If you hadn't announced that these were all hybrid classes, I don't think a Shaman like the one that was produced is something that would have happened at all, I suspect that we would have seen something entirely new and different. It seems like even the freelancers were generally unenthused by the premise, as so many of the archetypes are flawed, uninspired, formulaic, etc.
Again, maybe I'm way off base, but I feel like the people on the Advanced Class Guide didn't love it the way they've loved other books. The APG had serious love in it, flaws and all, and it oozed from every page. UM had much of the same, and UC seemed to be a mix of "things we love" and "things we have to add for the concept". I think that, more than anything else, is where the problems are coming from. THis is just me speculating of course, I can only interpret based on what I see on the page and the feedback and responses that are given.
I expect Occult Mysteries to be amazing though, because so many of the people at Paizo love the concept. They've been planning and ruminating on something they love and are excited about, and love is where the real magic comes from.
I really don't want Paizo to try and be "bigger" than they are, because I blame that on any drop in quality that may be occuring. Writers who love something edit themselves better before turning it over to editing. Designers who love a concept and are given free rein to explore it are going to be able to conceive far cooler abilities than someone who's filling a page, and the bigger you are, the more pages you fill and the less love and room you have to explore the stuff you want. ACG felt like a "big company" book. Lots of "we need 1 class that does X, 1 for Y, hmmm, we're light on divine casters add more Z, then make sure we've got a variant for the pet class that gets multiple pets and one that does this, ...." and not enough stuff that actually felt like someone loved it and wanted it to be.
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Since Gencon releases have more errors typically the answer is more likely that, they did not notice the errors for (insert reason, to include lack of time to completely look over the book as needed)*, which is different from "I know these errors exist, but instead of fixing them we will ship it to the printer anyway".I want to squash one thing right here and now. GenCon releases don't ever have less editing passes than other releases. Matter of fact, they probably get a few more since they are usually our flagship product for the year and we want to make extra sure that it is awesome.
-Lisa
I think it is awesome that the CEO takes her time-on a Saturday (When she should be gaming instead of working LOL ;) ) to respond to posts on the message board! Thank you Ms Lisa for having a company that makes my favorite RPG of all time, AND AND AND for caring enough to look at the message board on your day off! As you stated nothing human made is perfect. If this makes me one of the "fanboys" then so be it. I am 54 years old and have been playing since the White Box edition, and havn't been a "boy" for a very long time.
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Ssalarn WROTE: "ACG felt like a "big company" book. Lots of "we need 1 class that does X, 1 for Y, hmmm, we're light on divine casters add more Z, then make sure we've got a variant for the pet class that gets multiple pets and one that does this, ...." and not enough stuff that actually felt like someone loved it and wanted it to be."
WOW, I have the book and did not get that sense at all. I really like most of the classes presented, and I think that, for the most part, they are an interesting slant on existing classes. Maybe I am just a Bear of Little Brain, but I could not have combined classes to make something distinct which matches the War Priest etc. As stated in my earlier posting, I am old. Perhaps that grants me some perspective - I play PF for fun.........not to make points, get girls, or show how smart I are. ;) I have enough stress at my real job - when I play I want to have fun and relax. I don't take things as seriously as some posters, because they don't matter that much----to me. I am not saying that I don't notice errors or grumble over confusing text, I do; my point is......welll I think I have made it.
Kirk out
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I expect Occult Mysteries to be amazing though, because so many of the people at Paizo love the concept. They've been planning and ruminating on something they love and are excited about, and love is where the real magic comes from.
Fear not, your damning praise will be quickly silenced by all the "ha ha Failzo hates point-based psionics so they're giving us another vancian system where casters rule and martials drool' people ;-)
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Fear not, your damning praise will be quickly silenced by all the "ha ha Failzo hates point-based psionics so they're giving us another vancian system where casters rule and martials drool' people ;-)I expect Occult Mysteries to be amazing though, because so many of the people at Paizo love the concept. They've been planning and ruminating on something they love and are excited about, and love is where the real magic comes from.
LSfgpowda8ylkv;glkashdf;alsdfjalsgdahdflk!!!!! GWARGH!!!!
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Fear not, your damning praise will be quickly silenced by all the "ha ha Failzo hates point-based psionics so they're giving us another vancian system where casters rule and martials drool' people ;-)I expect Occult Mysteries to be amazing though, because so many of the people at Paizo love the concept. They've been planning and ruminating on something they love and are excited about, and love is where the real magic comes from.
Eh, for psionics I expect most home games will continue to use Dreamscarred Press's Ultimate Psionics. It's pretty well balanced, much more so than the system that Paizo is using (which has 15 years of playtesting showing it to be the most unbalanced subsystem in d20 gaming).
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I honestly don't see many people who already use Dreamscarred's system suddenly dropping it to pick up Paizo's. Those who like both will likely use them side-by-side, no different than having Psions and Wizards in the same world. Those who don't will leave them untouched. And those who don't like DSP's take will either pick up Paizo's if they like it or ignore it if not.
A few people will latch onto it due to being a first-party contribution; these will be the PFS players and the people whose GMs are restrictive to Paizo-content-only and reflexively screech at the mere mention of "third party".
There'll be the usual bouts of forum griping, of course, but in the end status quo will, for the most part, be maintained.
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Fear not, your damning praise will be quickly silenced by all the "ha ha Failzo hates point-based psionics so they're giving us another vancian system where casters rule and martials drool' people ;-)I expect Occult Mysteries to be amazing though, because so many of the people at Paizo love the concept. They've been planning and ruminating on something they love and are excited about, and love is where the real magic comes from.
I hope not. I am a psionics point guy, but I understand the reluctance to do a similar system, and I am hoping this one succeeds. In my games I will look at psionics and psychics as closely related, but still different, but I think some will use it as a replacement. People just need to realize Paizo can't always give them what they want AND still appeal to the broad fan base.