Does the Warpriest (Sacred Fist) AC bonus stack with the Monk AC bonus?

[Artanthos]

Question: Does the Warpriest (Sacred Fist) AC Bonus(SU) stack with the Monk AC Bonus(EX)?

AC Bonus(SU) wrote:

A deity protects her sacred fist as long as he is unarmored and unencumbered. A sacred fist adds his Wisdom modifier (minimum 0) to his AC and his CMD. In addition, a sacred fist gains a +1 deflection bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every 4 levels thereafter (to a maximum of +5 at 20th level).

These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the sacred fist is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.

AC Bonus (EX) wrote:

When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four monk levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.

These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.

Traditionally, double dipping a stat is frowned upon, but the bonuses are untyped. One ability is EX, the other is SU. At higher level, the monk gains an untyped addition above and beyond his wisdom. As the Sacred Fist levels, he gains a Deflection Bonus to AC above and beyond his wisdom. (This part should stack regardless of any wisdom stacking ruling.)

[Nefreet]

This other thread asks the more general question of "can you double dip the same ability bonus".

Not saying this question should be ignored, but the other question is more broad, and already has over 100 FAQ hits.

[SteelDraco]

I posted the same thing a week or so ago, and haven't received a definitive answer. My gut tells me that there's going to be a LOT of errata for the Advanced Class Guide, as a number of things need it.

For my home game, I would rule that the intention is that the sacred fist replaces the fighter hybrid side of the warpriest class with monk, and thus they don't stack, based on the rules about hybrid class abilities not stacking with similar abilities from the parent classes.

However, I just run PFS, and by RAW they're two untyped bonuses from different classes, and thus, as far as I can tell, they would stack. However, the ability has the same name, which usually means that they DON'T stack, per the "two bonuses from the same source don't stack" rules. So the RAW is pretty muddy on this one, as far as I'm concerned. I don't think the Ex/Su thing makes much difference, though I agree with your second point about the increases beyond your Wis stacking, as one is dodge and the other deflection.

I think this one needs to be FAQed and clarified by Paizo in the errata.

[Torbyne]

When they say "two bonuses from the same source don't stack" i've always assumed source to be the kind of bonus, such as two shields (shield bonus) wont stack or two castings of barkskin (natural AC) wont stack but ability name doesnt count as a source per se. The current writing looks like they stack which makes a MoMS/Sacred Fist really, really tempting.

[Quintain]

I'd say that they stack insofar as you can add levels of Monk to levels of Sacred Fist to determine what your AC bonus is, not adding the base amount twice.

[Undone]

I'm leaning RAW it stacks. Which means for PFS it'll stack.

I'm also leaning FAQ or errata it not to stack.

[Artanthos]

Undone wrote:

I'm leaning RAW it stacks. Which means for PFS it'll stack.

I'm also leaning FAQ or errata it not to stack.

I agree on both points, but I tried to keep my questions neutral.

As stands, nearly every Monk or Sacred Fist will dip into the opposing class for some truly frightening AC's.

[Undone]

Artanthos wrote:

Undone wrote:

I'm leaning RAW it stacks. Which means for PFS it'll stack.

I'm also leaning FAQ or errata it not to stack.

I agree on both points, but I tried to keep my questions neutral.

As stands, nearly every Monk or Sacred Fist will dip into the opposing class for some truly frightening AC's.

To be fair the Sacred fist 9 MoMS 2 build proposed for PFS in advice (Which is what I was looking at) doesn't require it but it does make you a defensive juggernaut (Huge saves, Evasion for fort and reflex, Pounce, with this AC in the 20s at level 3 with no significant investment, just a wis headband you bought anyway.).

I really don't think they should stack but for PFS at least for now they seem to stack (The Ex, Su is really the nail in the coffin because they are effected by different things. Half is shut off by an AMF for heavens sake).

Honestly as with so many other questions this book in general just felt like it needed +1 editing. Masterwork editing did not get the job done.

[Gargs454]

I agree that per RAW they should stack. I also agree that this is likely to change through errata/FAQ at some point in the future. After all, they nerfed Crane Wing, which really wasn't really overpowered imho, and this combo is far more powerful if you ask me.

[Zhayne]

They don't stack, because untyped bonuses from the same source do not stack. The source in both cases is the ability 'AC Bonus'.

[Artanthos]

Zhayne wrote:

They don't stack, because untyped bonuses from the same source do not stack. The source in both cases is the ability 'AC Bonus'.

The counter arguement:

While both abilities may share the same name, the abilities themselves are different. One is EX, the other SU. One grants an untyped AC bonus as you level, the other grants a deflection bonus as you level.

[BigNorseWolf]

Artanthos wrote:

Zhayne wrote:

They don't stack, because untyped bonuses from the same source do not stack. The source in both cases is the ability 'AC Bonus'.

The counter arguement:

While both abilities may share the same name, the abilities themselves are different. One is EX, the other SU. One grants an untyped AC bonus as you level, the other grants a deflection bonus as you level.

The as you level bonus stacks, but both of the abilities are use wisdom bonus for the large chunk of the boost, which is double dipping.

[Seranov]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Artanthos wrote:

Zhayne wrote:

They don't stack, because untyped bonuses from the same source do not stack. The source in both cases is the ability 'AC Bonus'.

The counter arguement:

While both abilities may share the same name, the abilities themselves are different. One is EX, the other SU. One grants an untyped AC bonus as you level, the other grants a deflection bonus as you level.

The as you level bonus stacks, but both of the abilities are use wisdom bonus for the large chunk of the boost, which is double dipping.

Yes, but they are still both mostly untyped. Since they are different abilities - AC Bonus (Ex) and AC Bonus (Su) - they are not the same source, RAW.

[ElementalXX]

In general devs say you cant add doubvle your Stat to anything, but this is as unclear as an old sink and its not official. Some feats even contradict that statement letting u add for example doulbe your int for an attack.

Raw it works

[Undone]

ElementalXX wrote:

In general devs say you cant add doubvle your Stat to anything, but this is as unclear as an old sink and its not official. Some feats even contradict that statement letting u add for example doulbe your int for an attack.

Raw it works

Considering there are direct contradictions I'm inclined to say it works.

[prototype00]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Artanthos wrote:

Zhayne wrote:

They don't stack, because untyped bonuses from the same source do not stack. The source in both cases is the ability 'AC Bonus'.

The counter arguement:

While both abilities may share the same name, the abilities themselves are different. One is EX, the other SU. One grants an untyped AC bonus as you level, the other grants a deflection bonus as you level.

The as you level bonus stacks, but both of the abilities are use wisdom bonus for the large chunk of the boost, which is double dipping.

Oh BNW, what are you going to do if they rule, eventually, that double dipping is totes legal? :P

Don't get me wrong, if they rule against me, I'm going to do what I've always done*.

prototype00

*Curl up into a foetal position and cry while bingeing on a tub of ice-cream and cry-whinging to Merisiel that nobody understands me.

[Undone]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Artanthos wrote:

Zhayne wrote:

They don't stack, because untyped bonuses from the same source do not stack. The source in both cases is the ability 'AC Bonus'.

The counter arguement:

While both abilities may share the same name, the abilities themselves are different. One is EX, the other SU. One grants an untyped AC bonus as you level, the other grants a deflection bonus as you level.

The as you level bonus stacks, but both of the abilities are use wisdom bonus for the large chunk of the boost, which is double dipping.

I'd just like to point out that it's functionally impossible for them to partly stack. The abilities either stack or do not. Partial stacking is impossible. They are the same source (Ac bonus, Ac Bonus) untyped, and while they both add your wisdom modifier they are separate abilities. There are situations which have been proven to be allowed. (Int twice to damage being one).

Heck some feat like dragon style add half your str mod to damage. Does that mean it doesn't stack because you have base STR?

There is nothing in the rules which states you can't add a stat more than once in the rare event it comes up.

[Torbyne]

Just realized (sorry, many of you probably already made the connection) this is the same debate as the Weapon Master/Sohei stacking one.

[Seranov]

Which debate is that?

[Torbyne]

Two class features from different classes possibly stacking or not and if so how did they? Both have a weapon training class feature but the wording on the features differed and there was debate about if and how they would stack.

[Under A Bleeding Sun]

While we're at it, why not go here so we can get an answer on what source is. 164 FAQ requests already and growing.

[Undone]

Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:

While we're at it, why not go here so we can get an answer on what source is. 164 FAQ requests already and growing.

I got me and 4 friends to FAQ it. It needs an answer sooner rather than later.

[Seranov]

Torbyne wrote:

Two class features from different classes possibly stacking or not and if so how did they? Both have a weapon training class feature but the wording on the features differed and there was debate about if and how they would stack.

Ah, then yes, I would agree with that. Both that it's relevant to this issue and that they should probably stack.

Spoiler:

The debate I thought you were talking about was with people trying to Flurry with weapons they have Weapon Training in, before they get Weapon Training in Sohei that specifically lets tem do so. Which is not really related to this issue at all, so I was like bwuh?

[Torbyne]

Sure, that was a big thing in that debate but i was looking more to the are they seperate bonuses that stack or overlap part of it. It is an even bigger issue for fighter types that gain atypical +2/+3 hit and damage bonuses and if that stacks with another class that follows the +1/+1... and how any of that stacks with Gloves of Dueling.

For a more topical question, Monk Robes grant abilities as though your effective monk level was higher, would that mean a Sacred Fist adds those for higher unarmed strike damage since the Sacred Fist has effective monk levels already?

[Seranov]

ACG wrote:

Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a sacred fist gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. He uses his warpriest levels as monk levels for determining the amount of damage dealt with an unarmed strike. This ability replaces focus weapon.

Honestly, I'm not sure. The Monk's Robes specifically increase the character's Monk level for the purpose of this bonus. But the Warpriest doesn't technically have Monk levels. I think there's an argument that could be made, either way.

[BigNorseWolf]

prototype00 wrote:

Oh BNW, what are you going to do if they rule, eventually, that double dipping is totes legal? :P

LN Druid Monk/Warpriest with a +12 bonus to ac from wisdom in T rex form.

[Undone]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

prototype00 wrote:

Oh BNW, what are you going to do if they rule, eventually, that double dipping is totes legal? :P

LN Druid Monk/Warpriest with a +12 bonus to ac from wisdom in T rex form.

Strait druid is better.

[Lormyr]

Undone wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

prototype00 wrote:

Oh BNW, what are you going to do if they rule, eventually, that double dipping is totes legal? :P

LN Druid Monk/Warpriest with a +12 bonus to ac from wisdom in T rex form.

Strait druid is better.

In general, perhaps. For armor class? No.