Psionics coming to Pathfinder!


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Tels wrote:
The Genie wrote:
I would love to see official psionic or psychic magic in Pathfinder. I do so love that gut reaction of someone when you say you are bringing a psychic to the party and they immediately start complaining how broken psionics are. And there sits the Wizard not two seats from him who has the potential to summon a celestial quasi-god level being to destroy anything he desires 4 times a day should he choose.

6 times a day if he opts to fill all of his slots, because, you know, he can just add s$#@ to his prepared spells between encounters if he needs to.

Or that Druid who is all "lol, psions..." *incense of whoopass* *dazing maximized flame strike* *wildshape* "RaWr!"

It's kind of funny, 'cause with my psion Agatha, I had actually considered making her a druid from the start but didn't want to wait until 5th level to start shapeshifting so I opted for psion (egoist/shaper) instead for shapeshifting + summoning and it was the best decision ever.

Not for power though. She'd be much scarier as a druid I think. I spend such a huge amount of effort keeping her squishy butt unkillable that it leaves little room for "roflstomping". Druids don't have that problem, since even if you don't plan to actually make use of wildshape for offensive purposes, crafting some +5 wild full plate and +5 wild tower shield and prancing about in that junk all day long is just par for the course. No check penalties, no drawbacks, just obscene AC that stacks with your massive +6 (+11 after enhancement) natural armor bonus.

While you're pooping dazing lighting bolts, and throwing maximized firestorms around, all the while enjoying an extra +1 HP / level, a strong fortitude, an animal companion (or domain powers), and having some nice bonus features like immunity to poison. ^_^


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Ashiel wrote:
Tels wrote:
The Genie wrote:
I would love to see official psionic or psychic magic in Pathfinder. I do so love that gut reaction of someone when you say you are bringing a psychic to the party and they immediately start complaining how broken psionics are. And there sits the Wizard not two seats from him who has the potential to summon a celestial quasi-god level being to destroy anything he desires 4 times a day should he choose.

6 times a day if he opts to fill all of his slots, because, you know, he can just add s$#@ to his prepared spells between encounters if he needs to.

Or that Druid who is all "lol, psions..." *incense of whoopass* *dazing maximized flame strike* *wildshape* "RaWr!"

It's kind of funny, 'cause with my psion Agatha, I had actually considered making her a druid from the start but didn't want to wait until 5th level to start shapeshifting so I opted for psion (egoist/shaper) instead for shapeshifting + summoning and it was the best decision ever.

Not for power though. She'd be much scarier as a druid I think. I spend such a huge amount of effort keeping her squishy butt unkillable that it leaves little room for "roflstomping". Druids don't have that problem, since even if you don't plan to actually make use of wildshape for offensive purposes, crafting some +5 wild full plate and +5 wild tower shield and prancing about in that junk all day long is just par for the course. No check penalties, no drawbacks, just obscene AC that stacks with your massive +6 (+11 after enhancement) natural armor bonus.

While you're pooping dazing lighting bolts, and throwing maximized firestorms around, all the while enjoying an extra +1 HP / level, a strong fortitude, an animal companion (or domain powers), and having some nice bonus features like immunity to poison. ^_^

Fun fact, I saved your posts about "why blaster druids are awesome" into a google doc that I called Ashiel's Guide to the Blaster Druid. Though, now that I look at it, you referred to it as Incense of Asswhupping, not whoopass :P

I sorry, Senpai, I failed your lessons! :'(

:D


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Tels wrote:
I sorry, Senpai, I failed your lessons! :'(

Nay I say, friend! It is not the literal phrase or the semantics that is important but the meaning behind it! There was an ass, and it is beaten most rigorously by the incense! That is all that matters! :D

We have many words and phrases that mean the same thing, like the energy known as ki/qi/chi/prana/psi/caffine (...err...wait a minute)!


I like the idea of Psionics. I do not like the points system. Pathfinder currently allows you to accomplish the same thing in a slightly different way as is, and it is much more balanced I think.

I want my psionics to go along with a Ki pool or similar ability to augment (SU) powers and such. Maybe give them some limited spellcasting as well (sixth or maybe even fourth level cap). That's all.


UsagiTaicho wrote:

I like the idea of Psionics. I do not like the points system. Pathfinder currently allows you to accomplish the same thing in a slightly different way as is, and it is much more balanced I think.

I want my psionics to go along with a Ki pool or similar ability to augment (SU) powers and such. Maybe give them some limited spellcasting as well (sixth or maybe even fourth level cap). That's all.

It would be nice if PF allowed you to accomplish half of the stuff psionics does, and were as balanced as psionics. That would be nice. However, that doesn't look like it's going to be happening ever.


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Ashiel wrote:
UsagiTaicho wrote:

I like the idea of Psionics. I do not like the points system. Pathfinder currently allows you to accomplish the same thing in a slightly different way as is, and it is much more balanced I think.

I want my psionics to go along with a Ki pool or similar ability to augment (SU) powers and such. Maybe give them some limited spellcasting as well (sixth or maybe even fourth level cap). That's all.

It would be nice if PF allowed you to accomplish half of the stuff psionics does, and were as balanced as psionics. That would be nice. However, that doesn't look like it's going to be happening ever.

I was also sad to hear that every Dreamscarred Press book simultaneously erupted into flames at the same time. It was truly a great loss for the world. At least I assume that is the case if I was not able to achieve each half of the stuff in psionics in Pathfinder.


Could you repeat that?


Ashiel wrote:
Could you repeat that?

You appear to be commenting that there are no psionic option in Pathfinder when there is a book of psionic options published by Dreamscarred Press.


Ashiel was meaning first-party option.


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Orthos wrote:
Ashiel was meaning first-party option.

Then I'm unclear on what exactly what Paizo was supposed to do.

What should Paizo have done? Copy Ultimate Psionics? Build onto what Dreamscarred Pressed did take all the new classes and create them so they all use power points?


Depends who you ask. I've seen several opinions on the subject here on the forums.

Some people wanted them to take Dreamscarred's Psionics and officially license them, allowing them to be imported wholesale. Primarily this seemed to be so they'd be allowed in PFS.

Some people wanted Paizo to build their own point-based casting system, or build off Dreamscarred's system by adding their own new classes in addition to the Psion, Wilder, Psychic Warrior, Vitalist, Soulknife, and others.

Some wanted both of the above.

And some people just wanted anything except another Vancian casting system. Which is exactly what we got.


Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

I'm still not clear on just what, exactly, makes a "casting system" Vancian. Or, for that matter, what makes it a "casting system".


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"Vancian casting" is at its broadest the entire "spell slot" system, where casting a spell consumes an allotted slot of power at a certain power level that can (under most circumstances) only be filled by a spell at that same power level. The name comes from Jack Vance, who had a similar magic system in his books, from which Gygax et. al. borrowed for the inspiration for the magic system in D&D. This is contrasted with the psionic "point casting system" where spells have a cost that is deducted from a pool.

More specifically, "Vancian" is often used to only refer to the "prepared spell slots" casting system of the Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Witch, Ranger, Paladin, and Magus, as contrasted with the "spont(aneous) casting" system of the Sorcerer, Oracle, etc.


Orthos wrote:

Depends who you ask. I've seen several opinions on the subject here on the forums.

Some people wanted them to take Dreamscarred's Psionics and officially license them, allowing them to be imported wholesale. Primarily this seemed to be so they'd be allowed in PFS.

Some people wanted Paizo to build their own point-based casting system, or build off Dreamscarred's system by adding their own new classes in addition to the Psion, Wilder, Psychic Warrior, Vitalist, Soulknife, and others.

Some wanted both of the above.

And some people just wanted anything except another Vancian casting system. Which is exactly what we got.

With many of those I just see problems that would have just hampered them from the start and made them hard to work with. I like Ultimate Psionics, but I would never want to see that with random players and random GMs.

I just want a more hooks into this magic within the world at large. I want there to be adventure paths that go to chunks of the world that seemed to have stronger ties to psychic powers.

I would have been fine with power points, but that carries a lot of baggage that I cannot see people ever letting go of on both sides. I'm mostly just not looking forward to the next year of "these classes suck, just a bunch of Vancian garbage."

Dark Archive

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I like DSP Ultimate Psionics, but I am really looking forward to the more occult versions of psychics. Plus I like Brandon Hodges work. So for me it is coming up all pluses. I am really looking forward to the kineticist especially.


I've been playing with DSP's psionics in my last several characters, all psionic, all with incredibly different flavors (even though some of them shared many mechanical similarities). Humorously, psionics has spoiled me. Spoiled me because even though I know that the core casting classes are stronger, I find myself drawn to DSP's psionics for its adaptability and narrative strengths. Despite really knowing how to play wizards, clerics, druids, and so forth to the hilt, I just find myself opting for psionics because of fun-factor and how well it lends itself to virtually any RP-concept.

Psionics as presented by DSP are innately very fluffable (they even encourage you to change the fluff of stuff). As a result, I've had psionic characters that...

1. A shapeshifting, spirit-calling, Irrisen witch who was raised by her mentor (who later turned out to be her aunt) who bound their souls together and accompanied her as a living bone-fetish (her psicrystal).

2. A tiefling with strange magical powers, whose hair seemed alive most of the time. She could assume more and more demonic appearances over time, but her most unusual feature was her long hair which she could shape into things and pull objects from its folds. She traveled with a companion, a voodoo-doll named Voodoo (her psicrystal), which was possessed by one of the many demonic entities that haunted her.

3. A CR +1 vampire (homebrew template that's not quite as cracked as the core vampire) vitalist who practiced an ancient sort of "blood magic", which revolved around spreading the power of her vampirism to nearby creatures, sharing the power of her feedings, and so forth. She hid her vampiric nature, posed as a noblewoman, and rode on her loyal steed Cauchemar.

That's not even the tip of the iceburg. Despite this, the witch was played to 11th level before we decided Reign of Winter sucked and cancelled the game. Despite my playing her to the hilt, she was nothing but fun, never really overpowering. I was looking forward to high levels, but we lost interest in the story (or lack thereof) in Reign of Winter which was making our character-development non-existent and/or grueling. It was just "go here, get this, kill these guys, repeat, why are we doing this again? No that still doesn't make any sense," and even our wonderful GM was growing very bored with the AP.

I've found very little that is as fun, as balanced, and fitting so many potential concepts, magical traditions, flavors, etc in Pathfinder's spellcasters as I have in just Psionics Unleashed. I've grown weary of the forced fluff of a lot of the PF classes (you're an oracle, you're cursed, because all oracles are cursed because!). If I can dream it, psionics can...


Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Orthos wrote:

"Vancian casting" is at its broadest the entire "spell slot" system, where casting a spell consumes an allotted slot of power at a certain power level that can (under most circumstances) only be filled by a spell at that same power level. The name comes from Jack Vance, who had a similar magic system in his books, from which Gygax et. al. borrowed for the inspiration for the magic system in D&D. This is contrasted with the psionic "point casting system" where spells have a cost that is deducted from a pool.

More specifically, "Vancian" is often used to only refer to the "prepared spell slots" casting system of the Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Witch, Ranger, Paladin, and Magus, as contrasted with the "spont(aneous) casting" system of the Sorcerer, Oracle, etc.

It's been nearly half a century since I last read The Dying Earth. I'd pretty much forgotten most of the details in the book. I did know that "Vancian" in talking about casting referred to Jack Vance.

Intellectually, I prefer one of two other options:

1. Every spell is a separate skill. You learn spells by independent research, or by the aid of a mentor or written work. Once you've learned it, you know it. Casting spells causes fatigue, the amount depending on the "power level" of the spell. Most everything else about magic is subsumed in the game assumptions.

2. Every spell is a separate skill. You learn spells by independent research, or by the aid of a mentor or written work. Once you've learned it, you know it. Casting spells costs mana - you have a certain maximum amount of mana you can use per day, and a certain (lesser) amount per spell cast. Also, a cast has a certain probability of success, based on what psychic abilities, laws of magic, and props ("somatic components" I guess) you use. A spell is not a thing - it's the process of putting yourself in a mental state that allows you to access your innate psychic abilities. Combining those abilities with the laws of magic (and the laws of physics) and with your mana per spell and whatever props you use is what produces the spell's effect.

In both cases, it doesn't matter what "kind" of magic user you are. In #1, the mages and the clerics of the game world got together and decided that "magic" and "miracle" are two different things, and that neither group would claim anything they do as part of the other group's "domain". Note that there was no "scientific" basis for this - the sole reason for it was to prevent conflict between the two groups. In #2 the difference between "arcane" magic and "divine" magic (in PF terms) is one of degree, not kind, in that a "divine" caster channels mana from his deity, since deities can deal with much more mana than mortals can. An "arcane" cast is just the magic user using his own mana manipulating ability.

In theory either of these systems could replace the Pathfinder magic system (and in case #2, "psionics" as well), but I'm lazy, so I probably won't ever bother. :-)


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Psionics does that.


There's also the fact that the Paizo folks (even before DSP released their psionics stuff) have said that they've never liked the OGL psionics system and didn't like point-based casting.

So, they're hitting that same niche using systems they like instead of using systems they don't like.

They're also simplifying a lot of things in their version, because players (and their GMs) are already used to Vancian and don't need to learn a new system.

Their new psychic magic system should be compatible with the current magic stuff and won't have any weird bypasses that people complained OGL psionics had.

Spell-Like Abilities, Knowledge (Arcana), Spell-Resistance, Use Magic Device, and Spellcraft type things will interact with psychic magic the same way they do with divine and arcane spells instead of needing specific psionic names for things that do pretty much the exact same thing. You don't need new versions of those just to do psychic magic as you did in OGL psionics.

Metamagic feats can be used instead of special augment rules for each and every power.

There aren't completely unique schools and subschools that only show up in OGL psionics which means that they can interact with existing feats, abilities, spells, and immunities much better. Diviniation -> Clairsentience, Conjuration -> Metacreativity, etc.


Ashiel wrote:


Psionics as presented by DSP are innately very fluffable (they even encourage you to change the fluff of stuff). As a result, I've had psionic characters that...

I've got a Paladin with Dip into Soulblade. His blade is actually his deity's favorite weapon, and is divinely flavored.

I agree that DSP Psionics system is very very flexible that way. I love it myself.

But I am really excited for the stuff from Paizo... not because I'd toss out Dreamscarred, but because I want to see what they come up with. The Kineticist sounds great, and I can't wait to see the flavor from they have talked about.

I run a "Psionics is different" when I run Dreamscarred, and with Occult Adventures being "Vancian" it can plug in with Vancian casters that already exist for a lot of interesting ideas. The "Psychic Theurge" as a prestige class; Added Psycic Magic to RGGs Magister. It using the same mechanics lend itself to blending in a way that DSP doesn't.


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Virgil Firecask wrote:

Spell-Like Abilities, Knowledge (Arcana), Spell-Resistance, Use Magic Device, and Spellcraft type things will interact with psychic magic the same way they do with divine and arcane spells instead of needing specific psionic names for things that do pretty much the exact same thing. You don't need new versions of those just to do psychic magic as you did in OGL psionics.

Metamagic feats can be used instead of special augment rules for each and every power.

There aren't completely unique schools and subschools that only show up in OGL psionics which means that they can interact with existing feats, abilities, spells, and immunities much better. Diviniation -> Clairsentience, Conjuration -> Metacreativity, etc.

As far as I can tell, that's a really nice, undeniable positive to changing psionics to psychic magic, but let me flip that coin over and show the negative side. Psychic magic will, inherently, interact with all the poorly made mechanisms put out before and after it's published.

New subsystems and rule sets can be difficult for new players and GMs to pick up (sometimes harder for the experienced ones), but they do offer distinct advantages. If a subsystem or new rule set has problems, it's problems are isolated, and vice versa. The problems can be addressed without worrying about how they impact the game at large. This nature allows game designers worried about balance or unforeseeable rules interactions to be a bit more risk taking in the game mechanics they implement.

In short: Even if different systems/subsystems introduce more baggage to players, they also have less baggage to deal with.


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I lost all interest when I found out they'll use vancian casting. I doubt a rehashing of the same old system will be even close to the quality of DSP's psionics.

It doesn't help that the ACG made it very difficult for me to get excited about anything from Paizo right now...


Dragon78 wrote:
Looks like they will not reveal the names of all the classes until the playtest, whenever that will be. I think I will retire to my cave with my treasure hoard and wait until I see this OA playtest with my mind's eye;)

The Mind's Eye you say? I thought you disliked Psionics.

Virgil Firecask wrote:

There's also the fact that the Paizo folks (even before DSP released their psionics stuff) have said that they've never liked the OGL psionics system and didn't like point-based casting.

So, they're hitting that same niche using systems they like instead of using systems they don't like.

That's an odd bias to me. As others have already pointed out, mana/power point systems match up with many different styles of scifi and fantasy fiction and games (both table top and electronic) better than spell slots.

Dragon78 wrote:
They're also simplifying a lot of things in their version, because players (and their GMs) are already used to Vancian and don't need to learn a new system.

Lazy. ;)

Dragon78 wrote:
Their new psychic magic system should be compatible with the current magic stuff and won't have any weird bypasses that people complained OGL psionics had.

You'll have to explain that one. Weird bypasses? If you mean transparency, it's a good default. After a thread or two, though, that discussed what would be affected if you remove the magic/psionic transparency, I am willing to do away with it if the story/setting called for it with no worries.

Dragon78 wrote:
Spell-Like Abilities, Knowledge (Arcana), Spell-Resistance, Use Magic Device, and Spellcraft type things will interact with psychic magic the same way they do with divine and arcane spells instead of needing specific psionic names for things that do pretty much the exact same thing. You don't need new versions of those just to do psychic magic as you did in OGL psionics.

Psi-like abilities just get the free scaling that Spell like abilities get. Spell resistance is power resistance if you use transparency. UMD and Spellcraft are the defaults for Pathfinder based Psionics, with only Knowledge (Psionics) being an added skill considering those you listed.

I'm still not seeing what you feel is necessarily different enough to be awkward in use.

Dragon78 wrote:
Metamagic feats can be used instead of special augment rules for each and every power.

Thus requiring extra investment to "push a little harder" a standard trope in many genres.

Dragon78 wrote:
There aren't completely unique schools and subschools that only show up in OGL psionics which means that they can interact with existing feats, abilities, spells, and immunities much better. Diviniation -> Clairsentience, Conjuration -> Metacreativity, etc.

I don't know... I think the Paizo published feat Psiotheurgist does a bit of the work in translating disciplines to schools. It might take... oh, another minute of thought to suss out any remaining holes.

Edit: Then again, from you comment "...instead of needing specific psionic names for things that do pretty much the exact same thing..." I take it that you don't allow players to call Burning Hands something else, like Alamar's Dragon Mouth or The Devil's Lash if a player wanted to reflavor something.


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Lemmy wrote:
I lost all interest when I found out they'll use vancian casting. I doubt a rehashing of the same old system will be even close to the quality of DSP's psionics.

I won't say I lost all interest, and some of the hints and teasers dropped by some of the staff have got me at least a little interested, but I also can't say I wasn't a little disappointed.


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I wasn't disappointed with the announcement, because I already knew Paizo wasn't going to do power points and that psychic magic was going to be vancian. That's been abundantly clear from following the Ask James Jacobs thread. Normally, he's doesn't talk about potential future projects, but he's been pretty adamant that psychic magic, when it was done, would be vancian and wouldn't involve power points.

Regardless, I'm super excited about the kineticist. It sounds kind of like I'd be able to play an Avatar style bender with it, or even mimic several Force abilities. If only Paizo had released some sort of energy blade in the Technology Guide... Jedi Bender!


Tels wrote:

I wasn't disappointed with the announcement, because I already knew Paizo wasn't going to do power points and that psychic magic was going to be vancian. That's been abundantly clear from following the Ask James Jacobs thread. Normally, he's doesn't talk about potential future projects, but he's been pretty adamant that psychic magic, when it was done, would be vancian and wouldn't involve power points.

Not really true Vancian. Spontaneous casters are not true Vancian.

Prepared Casters in PF are pretty darn close to true Vancian, just some of the flavor text about "forgetting" is gone, and of course unlimited cantrips, etc.

Having played with Spell points, I can't see how it's any advantage at all. It's easier to Nova, and easier to cheat (even if inadvertently). Other than that it's just Fantasy Accounting.

Vancian is the most popular and easiest to master FRP system. It's also very common in Fantasy literature, whereas I dont remember any books where the wizard or psion has 'points".

Yes, the meme where you use "energy" is common, but then that usually drains you or make you tired. Psionic Points or Spell points dont do that- or at least dont in any system I have played. In most systems, after using 99% of your "power" you are just as "strong" as a Fighter who is down 99% of his HP.

You can just as easily say the Spontaneous spell-slots are using "energy" as Spell points. It's just flavor.

Shadow Lodge

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"true Vancian"

You mean where you know maybe 3 spells at best?


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DrDeth wrote:


It's also very common in Fantasy literature

So common, in fact, that I've never seen it outside of D&D related literature.

Wait.

Seriously, name 5 books besides D&D related stuff and Jack Vance's novels that use "spell slots". You have 120 seconds, I'll hold you to the honor system.

This:

Quote:
Yes, the meme where you use "energy" is common, but then that usually drains you or make you tired. Psionic Points or Spell points dont do that- or at least dont in any system I have played. In most systems, after using 99% of your "power" you are just as "strong" as a Fighter who is down 99% of his HP.

Is just being willfully obtuse. The trope (not meme) is energy, you get tired from using it, etc. but you notice the people always have juuuuust enough energy to fight on, cast that one last spell, no matter how small, before you're spent.

Just like the Fighter takes grievous injury, bleeding from multiple wounds, but can still fight on until the combat is over.

It's flavor. I would hope that you, who claims to really stress the importance of roleplaying, would realize that. Do your Fighters, in your mind, never get hurt until they're dead? Never make mention of injury when they lose HP?

Likewise, why would your Psion not play up becoming tired or running low on energy as he runs low on power points?


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Ashiel wrote:
Psionics does that.

It does not. It gets close, but no closer than a wizard does. The casting system he talks about is closer to Call of Cthulhu RPG or Shadowrun. It isn't Dreamscarred Press's psionics.

Te'Shen wrote:
Dragon78 wrote:
There aren't completely unique schools and subschools that only show up in OGL psionics which means that they can interact with existing feats, abilities, spells, and immunities much better. Diviniation -> Clairsentience, Conjuration -> Metacreativity, etc.

I don't know... I think the Paizo published feat Psiotheurgist does a bit of the work in translating disciplines to schools. It might take... oh, another minute of thought to suss out any remaining holes.

Edit: Then again, from you comment "...instead of needing specific psionic names for things that do pretty much the exact same thing..." I take it that you don't allow players to call Burning Hands something else, like Alamar's Dragon Mouth or The Devil's Lash if a player wanted to reflavor something.

That works for home games, but has issues with stuff like PFS where you would be asking the GM to be a lot more aware of the psionic transparency rules.

Player: I manifest mind link on that person augmenting it.

GM: He is resistant to enchantments, is it an enchantment?

Player: No, it is Telepathy.

There really isn't any great route leading from this point since the telepathy is effectively enchantment, but unless the GM or player know that off-hand it is hard to quickly see since that transparency is off in a section of the psionic rules. We could hope the players have full mastery of the psionic rules, but I think it is fair to say that will never happen for the majority. The GM could start reading the psionic rules then and there, but that would suck the life out of the game ridiculously fast. The GM could make a gut reaction call for sake of expediency, but this is only one very simple case that will be repeated across many games and many rules.

Renaming stuff is great from a flavor perspective, but when a part of the rules it acts as a layer of obfuscation. You can get past it relatively easily, but it is unnecessary hindrance on learning the system and understanding what is happening.


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Rynjin wrote:
DrDeth wrote:


It's also very common in Fantasy literature

So common, in fact, that I've never seen it outside of D&D related literature.

Wait.

Seriously, name 5 books besides D&D related stuff and Jack Vance's novels that use "spell slots". You have 120 seconds, I'll hold you to the honor system.

I can name one - sorta. The second Amber series, when Merlin talks about hanging spells. Takes time early to do most of the work, then finishes the spell with a word and a gesture later, and it's gone.

That is the only one I can think off. And those books (the second series) were written after D&D was invented, though I doubt it had an influence.


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DrDeth wrote:
Vancian is the most popular and easiest to master FRP system. It's also very common in Fantasy literature (...)

I honestly doubt any part of this sentence is true. Vancian casting is only used in D&D-related literature.

DrDeth wrote:
Yes, the meme where you use "energy" is common, but then that usually drains you or make you tired.

That's a trope, not a meme.


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I guess in a technical sense all tropes are memes (bits of cultural data) but it's kinda like calling a square a rectangle. Technically true, but people will look at you funny.


Lemmy wrote:
I honestly doubt any part of this sentence is true. Vancian casting is only used in D&D-related literature.

Not true. The spellcasting in Roger Zelazny's second Amber series is very Vancian in nature, among other places.

EDIT: I see Lord Mhoram beat me to it.

Scarab Sages

DrDeth wrote:


Yes, the meme where you use "energy" is common, but then that usually drains you or make you tired. Psionic Points or Spell points dont do that- or at least dont in any system I have played. In most systems, after using 99% of your "power" you are just as "strong" as a Fighter who is down 99% of his HP.

If you are actually interested in a system where spells are actually powered by personal energy and if you over use your point you are fatigues, the casting in GURPS is based on this. You have fatigue points which are based on your health, and when you use them all you become slowed or pass out.


Imbicatus wrote:
DrDeth wrote:


Yes, the meme where you use "energy" is common, but then that usually drains you or make you tired. Psionic Points or Spell points dont do that- or at least dont in any system I have played. In most systems, after using 99% of your "power" you are just as "strong" as a Fighter who is down 99% of his HP.
If you are actually interested in a system where spells are actually powered by personal energy and if you over use your point you are fatigues, the casting in GURPS is based on this. You have fatigue points which are based on your health, and when you use them all you become slowed or pass out.

That's also very similar to the Shadowrun system where every time you cast a spell you have to resist an amount of stun damage dependent on the power level of the magic you used.


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Cthulhudrew wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
I honestly doubt any part of this sentence is true. Vancian casting is only used in D&D-related literature.

Not true. The spellcasting in Roger Zelazny's second Amber series is very Vancian in nature, among other places.

EDIT: I see Lord Mhoram beat me to it.

Well, 7 and a half hours and 2 people have come up with one example between them.

It's a start.


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Blazej wrote:
It does not.

It does so. He said...

Quote:
2. Every spell is a separate skill.

Each power does its own thing.

Quote:
You learn spells by independent research,

You learn a new power (or powers) on your own periodically.

Quote:
or by the aid of a mentor or written work.

These can be done, but maybe he means more like spending skill points?

Quote:
Once you've learned it, you know it.

Powers again.

Quote:
Casting spells costs mana - you have a certain maximum amount of mana you can use per day, and a certain (lesser) amount per spell cast.

Psionics in a nutshell.

Quote:
Also, a cast has a certain probability of success, based on what psychic abilities, laws of magic, and props ("somatic components" I guess) you use.

Also psionics, but this might just be vague (most magic systems in RPGs sound like this)

Quote:
A spell is not a thing - it's the process of putting yourself in a mental state that allows you to access your innate psychic abilities. Combining those abilities with the laws of magic (and the laws of physics) and with your mana per spell and whatever props you use is what produces the spell's effect.

Also sounds like psionics, but maybe he means something more complex?

Quote:
In both cases, it doesn't matter what "kind" of magic user you are. In #1, the mages and the clerics of the game world got together and decided that "magic" and "miracle" are two different things, and that neither group would claim anything they do as part of the other group's "domain". Note that there was no "scientific" basis for this - the sole reason for it was to prevent conflict between the two groups. In #2 the difference between "arcane" magic and "divine" magic (in PF terms) is one of degree, not kind, in that a "divine" caster channels mana from his deity, since deities can deal with much more mana than mortals can. An "arcane" cast is just the magic user using his own mana manipulating ability.

This also describes psionics, only with a setting-fluff explanation of different power lists. However, psionics is an all-in-one magic system in that psychic warriors, psions, vitalists, tacticians, marksmen, etc, etc, etc, etc. One system to rule them all. Each class has powers that are associated with their specific interests and/or specializations, but each class can learn powers from other classes as well and use them on their own, which makes hybridization a very do-able thing.

So yeah, psionics does that. Which is why I find it so incredibly fluffable. There's other ways you could model those things as well. For example, that also describes the Star Wars d20 system for magic, where each force power is a skill (like Perception or Stealth) that you can put ranks into, and then you spend your stamina (vitality points), and you make a skill check to determine the potency of the power.

But most of what was described was fluff. Psionics does fluff well.


So, an interesting idea. Why doesn't a group take up the task of making an alternate powerpoint system for all casters? That way, these new psychics and anyone else can be powerpoint casters, but those that like Vancian casting (counting myself and I know many others) can have our cake too.


It wouldn't be too hard, really. Just apply Psion progression to prepared casters and Wilder progression to spontaneous casters (Psychic Warrior for 6/9 casters and Gifted Adept for 4/9 casters) and it's pretty much set.

The problem is, easy as that part is, the main issue comes from the spells themselves and breaking down ALL of the thousand or more spells in the game into things you need to Augment and whatnot...not really feasible for backwards conversion.


Ashiel wrote:
Blazej wrote:
It does not.
It does so. He said...

I think you are cutting the corners pretty tight on that. In the same way I could go back to his post and say...

Ed Reppert wrote:
1. Every spell is a separate skill. You learn spells by independent research, or by the aid of a mentor or written work. Once you've learned it, you know it. Casting spells causes fatigue, the amount depending on the "power level" of the spell. Most everything else about magic is subsumed in the game assumptions.

That is wizards. Learn spells through research, mentors and written documenation. Larger level spells are more few and costly, if you consume higher level spells you will have to rest a lot quicker.

But to get there I have to fudge knowing the spell since researching the spell doesn't give you the option to prepare it from memory. In addition I have to use a much broader definition of fatigue to get mine through there.

Ed Reppert wrote:
2. Every spell is a separate skill. You learn spells by independent research, or by the aid of a mentor or written work. Once you've learned it, you know it. Casting spells costs mana - you have a certain maximum amount of mana you can use per day, and a certain (lesser) amount per spell cast. Also, a cast has a certain probability of success, based on what psychic abilities, laws of magic, and props ("somatic components" I guess) you use. A spell is not a thing - it's the process of putting yourself in a mental state that allows you to access your innate psychic abilities. Combining those abilities with the laws of magic (and the laws of physics) and with your mana per spell and whatever props you use is what produces the spell's effect.
Ashiel wrote:
Quote:
2. Every spell is a separate skill.

Each power does its own thing.

Quote:
You learn spells by independent research,

You learn a new power (or powers) on your own periodically.

Quote:
or by the aid of a mentor or written work.

These can be done, but maybe he means more like spending skill points?

Quote:
Once you've learned it, you know it.
Powers again.

Every power is a seperate skill, but the learning doesn't match up to how it runes or plays. As described it closer to wizard style learning where you can spend resources (time, money, etc.) to learn new spells. That isn't the case for pretty much all psionic classes I know about (except the Erudite, but I don't think we talk about that). The option to "Manifest an Unknown Power from Another's powers Known" sort of fits, but it doesn't really fit for the character learning the power.

I think this all describes how a sorcerer works about as well as psionic characters. You could describe the spells sorcerer learns are through research and mentorship, but the system doesn't really do anything to support that.

Ashiel wrote:
Quote:
Also, a cast has a certain probability of success, based on what psychic abilities, laws of magic, and props ("somatic components" I guess) you use.
Also psionics, but this might just be vague (most magic systems in RPGs sound like this)

I'm stuck on probability of success there. 100% is technically a certain probability of success, but except for a few rare powers, success isn't dependent on your what pieces of the ritual you laid out. Gaining a spiritual token doesn't give a better chance to manifest, it could give an increased DC or other bonuses on the power, but it wouldn't make your energy ball more or less likely to explode.

We could say that saving throws, spell resistance, concentration checks to cast defensively, and attack rolls are the parts of that probability of success. In that case though, wizards equally qualify for this section as well.

Ashiel wrote:
Quote:
Casting spells costs mana - you have a certain maximum amount of mana you can use per day, and a certain (lesser) amount per spell cast.
Psionics in a nutshell.

Agreed.

Ashiel wrote:
Quote:
A spell is not a thing - it's the process of putting yourself in a mental state that allows you to access your innate psychic abilities. Combining those abilities with the laws of magic (and the laws of physics) and with your mana per spell and whatever props you use is what produces the spell's effect.
Also sounds like psionics, but maybe he means something more complex?

Quite possibly, but "maybe he means something more complex?" shows a bit more doubt than "Psionics does that." If that doubt is there, then I done, since that is my entire point. That there is a reasonable chance that he isn't talking about psionics as written. This doubt goes away again before the end of your post though.

The augmentable power point system as laid out in the Expanded Psionics Handbook is not the one and true king of all spell casting systems. It is a very good casting system. With the exception of a few odds and ends, I really do enjoy it. But what I saw described for #2 seems to be a different casting system.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Rogue Genius games did it with a spell point system.

My favorite iteration of psionics/psychic magic has to be Green Ronin's Psychic, which treated each Psionic Power as a skill, which were unlocked with feats. Using the powers caused non-lethal damage (or called for a Will Save to avoid fatigue/exhaustion) to me psychic abilities are defined by a few broadly useful powers.

Telekinesis is the best example, since it can do so much depending on its application.


i think too for psychic from green ronin. I like this system but a little underpowered for pathfinder in this 3.0 version.


Blazej wrote:
The augmentable power point system as laid out in the Expanded Psionics Handbook is not the one and true king of all spell casting systems. It is a very good casting system. With the exception of a few odds and ends, I really do enjoy it. But what I saw described for #2 seems to be a different casting system.

Well that's why I said most of what he said seemed like either fluff or campaign specific stuff. It's as acceptable to research new/different powers in psionics as it is in core magic (the chapter on powers explains that if your GM will allow you to research powers, existing or creating new ones, follow these rules). How you research those is more or less up to you, and it might include mentorship or something, as appropriate to the group.

Now if making some checks and learning a thing from someone else is a mechanical thing that he is wanting, then that could be an issue, but most all of the fluff was definitely there. Right down to all encompassing magic system with different traditions.

I must politely disagree that core casting makes it so using more powerful spells requires you to rest sooner. In fact, the amount of magical energy you have is pretty irrelevant as Vancian-style casting functions more like a revolver rather than a battery. You either have bullets in the chamber or you don't. You can shoot all your low-charge bulets and still have A-Bombs in the silo, or throw off all your A-Bombs and still have your .22 in reserve. This is why vancian casting is so awkward. It works nothing like the vast majority of people expect magic to work like (even a lot of D&D novels gloss over vancian-style casting).

I also pointed out that due to the nature of what was described, it could also be met by other magic systems, such as Star Wars d20's magic system -- which looks nothing like 3.5/PF psionics by the way -- which can represent pretty much everything mentioned, except, maybe the mentoring thing.

But the mentoring thing sounds either like RPing fluff, or something that would be semi-awkward to fairly script out in an RPG. I think the most fair way would be to require you to spend more time and/or money to learn something individually than having a mentor, but one has to be generally careful when just allowing characters to pass on knowledge to another character willy-nilly.

For example, if sorcerers could just teach their spells known to another sorcerer, sorcerers would very quickly become the most powerful classes around, because they would be Wizard Mark III, the superior evolution to the wizard and arcanist combined. A class that has the ability to cast a legitimately decent amount of spells, chosen at will from an ever expanding list that is limited only by their contact with other sorcerers willing to swap pokemon cards.


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Ashiel wrote:
Blazej wrote:
The augmentable power point system as laid out in the Expanded Psionics Handbook is not the one and true king of all spell casting systems. It is a very good casting system. With the exception of a few odds and ends, I really do enjoy it. But what I saw described for #2 seems to be a different casting system.

Well that's why I said most of what he said seemed like either fluff or campaign specific stuff. It's as acceptable to research new/different powers in psionics as it is in core magic (the chapter on powers explains that if your GM will allow you to research powers, existing or creating new ones, follow these rules). How you research those is more or less up to you, and it might include mentorship or something, as appropriate to the group.

Now if making some checks and learning a thing from someone else is a mechanical thing that he is wanting, then that could be an issue, but most all of the fluff was definitely there. Right down to all encompassing magic system with different traditions.

I must politely disagree that core casting makes it so using more powerful spells requires you to rest sooner. In fact, the amount of magical energy you have is pretty irrelevant as Vancian-style casting functions more like a revolver rather than a battery. You either have bullets in the chamber or you don't. You can shoot all your low-charge bulets and still have A-Bombs in the silo, or throw off all your A-Bombs and still have your .22 in reserve. This is why vancian casting is so awkward. It works nothing like the vast majority of people expect magic to work like (even a lot of D&D novels gloss over vancian-style casting).

I also pointed out that due to the nature of what was described, it could also be met by other magic systems, such as Star Wars d20's magic system -- which looks nothing like 3.5/PF psionics by the way -- which can represent pretty much everything mentioned, except, maybe the mentoring thing.

But the mentoring thing sounds either like RPing fluff, or something...

Forcing people to only learn magic from mentors also makes for awkward immersion. Like in Skyrim, you can only learn spells from reading spell books which destroys the book... so who gave the first casters spell books?

It also basically forces you into the trope of "ancient civilizations were more magically powerful and their magic has been lost"... which kind of sums up the majority of campaign settings out there, be it in games, books, or even anime. In this way, the ancient civilizations discovered magic and can just *learn* it (previous Elder Scrolls games), while the current generation has lost this ability and needs to be taught it and if all the casters were to die, so too would the magic (Skyrim).


Tels wrote:
Forcing people to only learn magic from mentors also makes for awkward immersion. Like in Skyrim, you can only learn spells from reading spell books which destroys the book... so who gave the first casters spell books?

Agreed 100% actually. On a funny note, the spell books in skyrim aren't really uncommon (apparently), and it seems that mages can simply teach other mages spells (as evidenced by what's-his-face teaching you the basic ward spell, I don't think he gives you a book, just teaches it to you).

Truth be told, I wouldn't even hate the idea of just being able to share spells in a D&D-type game. I once played in a wizard-heavy party and we shared spellbooks whenever we gained levels (each of us would research two spells different from the other wizards, then teach them to each other). The only thing that would concern me is with the idea that you could do this in a system where you "just know the spell, cast via mana".

That'd be kind of like psionics, or sorcerers (for a vancian version) except you just know all of the spells. It's not really super relevant in skyrim because magic in vanilla skyrim is pretty "meh", since you have to download some mods to even get stuff that's fairly cool (there's a really nice spellpack that adds a contingency-type spell, travel spells like the ability to cast a spell aimed at a location and teleport there, spells that make you jump high, etc), but it would be super-borked in D&D. :P

Not that I don't like the idea. It would just need to be implemented from the drawing-board level, as opposed to based in any way off the current core system (or even psionics). Psionics has always treated the acquisition of extra powers very conservatively. Psychic chirurgury is the classic method and has some hard limits (in addition to requiring you to find someone to manifest it for before 17th level), while mind stones from one of their supplements are their version of pages of spell knowledge but are waaaaaay more costly (rightly so!).

We've always just roleplayed the training and/or teaching between our characters. :P

Quote:
It also basically forces you into the trope of "ancient civilizations were more magically powerful and their magic has been lost"... which kind of sums up the majority of campaign settings out there, be it in games, books, or even anime. In this way, the ancient civilizations discovered magic and can just *learn* it (previous Elder Scrolls games), while the current generation has lost this ability and needs to be taught it and if all the casters were to die, so too would the magic (Skyrim).

It's a nice trope indeed. I'm usually not too thrilled with forced fluff though. I prefer an RPG system to be inclusive and let campaigns be exclusive, if you know what I mean. If the campaign says not many people know magic, let that be a thing that is true in the campaign, not the basic rules (the reverse is true too). :P


Ashiel wrote:
Tels wrote:
Forcing people to only learn magic from mentors also makes for awkward immersion. Like in Skyrim, you can only learn spells from reading spell books which destroys the book... so who gave the first casters spell books?

Agreed 100% actually. On a funny note, the spell books in skyrim aren't really uncommon (apparently), and it seems that mages can simply teach other mages spells (as evidenced by what's-his-face teaching you the basic ward spell, I don't think he gives you a book, just teaches it to you).

Truth be told, I wouldn't even hate the idea of just being able to share spells in a D&D-type game. I once played in a wizard-heavy party and we shared spellbooks whenever we gained levels (each of us would research two spells different from the other wizards, then teach them to each other). The only thing that would concern me is with the idea that you could do this in a system where you "just know the spell, cast via mana".

That'd be kind of like psionics, or sorcerers (for a vancian version) except you just know all of the spells. It's not really super relevant in skyrim because magic in vanilla skyrim is pretty "meh", since you have to download some mods to even get stuff that's fairly cool (there's a really nice spellpack that adds a contingency-type spell, travel spells like the ability to cast a spell aimed at a location and teleport there, spells that make you jump high, etc), but it would be super-borked in D&D. :P

Not that I don't like the idea. It would just need to be implemented from the drawing-board level, as opposed to based in any way off the current core system (or even psionics). Psionics has always treated the acquisition of extra powers very conservatively. Psychic chirurgury is the classic method and has some hard limits (in addition to requiring you to find someone to manifest it for before 17th level), while mind stones from one of their supplements are their version of pages of spell knowledge but are waaaaaay more costly (rightly so!)....

Very true. In a system where you can cast any spell you know, and can know any amount of spells, as long as you have mana, the spells would have to be very toned down in power compared to what we have in D&D.

Although, I'm aware you could potentially tweak the PFRPG system to get something that would work. I've been tossing around an idea that does just that to simulate a Harry Potter-esque magic system. The amount of house rules required for it though is both staggering and minimal at the same time.


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One of the benefits of the d20 system is it's very modular. You can chop off large portions of it and duct-tape entirely new systems onto it fairly easily (though this will always change the way the game fundamentally plays unless the new system is designed to retain certain truths of the core).

I once wanted to run a game where spells were basically raw magic being shaped from the infinite energies of the planes, where magic was essentially infinite, but powerful magic incredibly difficult to control because of the amount of energy you had to channel, contain, and sculpt.

As a result, that campaign used a system where a d20 roll was used to determine if you could cast a spell. The check was basically a Concentration check against a DC. You could cast spells at-will, you just had to A) have the ability to cast a high level spell (based on your class), and B) succeed at casting it.

The thing was, the DCs were set at something like X + Spell Level * 2, where X was the base DC of the tier (10, 15, or 20, etc), so the DC breakdown looked something like this:

Tier I
0 = DC 10
1st = DC 12
2nd = DC 14
3rd = DC 16

Tier II
4th = DC 23
5th = DC 25
6th = DC 27

Tier III
7th = DC 34
8th = DC 36
9th = DC 38

Failure to hit the DC resulted in losing control over the magical energies and frying yourself, so you would take damage based on the level of the spell if you whiffed it (IIRC, I think it was like Xd6 where X was the level of the spell, or it might have increased a bit with each tier, I forget). Generally speaking, whiffing was something you didn't want to do.

You could take 10 when you weren't being threatened. When threatened you had to roll your check (in addition to trying to avoid any AoOs and such), which meant that you risked losing control of your spell in the turmoil. You could also take 20 when casting but doing so required you to increase the casting time of the spell to x20 its usual casting time (so 1 standard action = 20 rounds of casting) which provoked and was subject to getting interrupted as normal for casting spells (you did not do this in combat). You could also aid another on the check if you had additional magicians helping you shape the spell (each was required to ready an action to help you upon casting it, and each additional magician added a +2 to your check).

The direct result of this was that casters tended to stick with 0-3rd level spells, especially in combat, which were much easier to control and cast defensively, but they could cast these spells pretty much as often as they wanted. This achieved the goal I was going for in the campaign, and even at high levels (the campaign had to go on hiatus around 14th level or so) the party's staple tactics and spells revolved around 1st-3rd level spells and some 2nd tier spells with a bit of caution.

You could cast any spell that you had prepared/known. In general, high level slots were often invested into a larger variety of low-level spells. Sorcerers basically didn't exist (there was little point for them to as everything was spontaneous now). Metamagic did what you would expect and increased the effective level of the spell and thus the DC to cast it.

It was a very fun campaign. It also helped that I just strait up limited sources that could be used to improve your casting checks, but an alternative method would also be to tweak the dial of the base DCs until you're happy with whatever modifiers you expect your group to get access to over the course of the game.


Ashiel wrote:
*Stuff with spell tiers and DCs for casting spells*

Huh... This is... terrifyingly similar to a homebrew I'm making with a friend. Even the "concentration" DCs are the same. oO


My thought was fairly similar to yours, but it involved the idea of turning magic into skill points. Basically, take the Wizards 9 schools of magic and make them each a separate skill. Each spell of the associated school requires a DC to cast, and the result of your skill check determines the effectiveness of the spell; exceeding the DC of the spell means your spell is more potent, so just being able to make the bare minimum is note enough.

For example, take the spell sleep; it has a DC of 11, but for every 2 points by which you exceed the DC of 11, you increase the HD of what you can effect with the spell. In Harry Potter terms, this would be the Stunning Spell stupefy.

Another thought I'd had was to limit player HD to 4th level, but levels beyond 4th grant bonus HP. The reason for this is so you could have a spell that kills if it touches you (ala Avada Kedavra) in the form of Enervation. Basically, Enervation had the chance to kill you because it would drain HD instead of levels, making it a very scary and potent threat. In this kind of Harry Potter setting, I Divine Magic would almost not exist, and I would have to heavily restrict magic in general.

Still, I think the idea of a 'skill based magic' system would be a lot of fun and very cool, because then it isn't restricted to just a single class. Any class that puts ranks into the skills can cast magic, though some classes will simply be better at it because they have more skill ranks.

The whole idea is basically in it's infancy stage as it's been something I've been tossing around for a few months now. It would probably require substantial rewrites of the spells in the game, but the changes themselves are actually minimal.


Lemmy wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
*Stuff with spell tiers and DCs for casting spells*
Huh... This is... terrifyingly similar to a homebrew I'm making with a friend. Even the "concentration" DCs are the same. oO

*brofist* :3

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