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@Diego Rossi,
Sorry, not to argue, just to point out that I said "innate to Yeth Hounds", now in essence I agree with you that animals can be trained to do more than just open doors, but that said, how many DM's will grant that innately or even at all to your Druids companion, a familiar or an Eidolon. Some DM's will and some will not. Unfortuantely it is not specifically covered in the rules to my knowledge, please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
But, and this is just 'my' opinion, a savage Yeth Hound would fail at opening doors, intelligent as it is, and without any indication of such training in the RotRL AP, makes no mention of it.
Would Nualia train them to do that? Perhaps! Again, up to the DM.However,
The argument about the panic wearing off because the yeth hound isn't howling don't hold water. The panic rules don't work that way.Once they are out of sight (or hearing) of any source of danger, they can act as they want.
OK, that seems pretty clear to me, but I understand how and maybe why you feel the 'panicked' rules do not work that way, but the RAW is fairly clear about "once they are out of (hearing)".
So if the Yeth is not howling and the PC's cannot hear it, it would seem to imply the effect wears off, or more specifically, "they can act as they want".Now, I agree in that if you are facing a Yeth Hound and are struck by this panicked effect, it would continue to affect you as long as the "Source" of that threat is present, however, a threat on the other side of a door does not to me in and of itself cause you to keep running IMO.
I understand if you wish to adjudicate it this way but I think it could be a little bit harsh, and I suspect most players would agree.
I conceed that many would not play it this way, but according to the RAW, it could and probably should be implemented like that.This could use some clarification from the friendly staff at Paizo.
Sorry, Diego, again, I am not arguing with you, I would still...
Your words (bold mine):
My point is, that had you been able to close that door, the panicked effect would have effectively ended after a round, (assuming the Yeth was not still howling) you could then act as you like. I assume from this RAW that if it was a sight based fear effect, it would recommence as soon as you saw the source of that fear. However, being a sound (sonic) effect, unless it was continual, there is scope to say that the effect had worn off or dissipated.
The rules:
Panicked: Characters who are panicked are shaken, and they run away from the source of their fear as quickly as they can, dropping whatever they are holding. Other than running away from the source, their paths are random. They flee from all other dangers that confront them rather than facing those dangers. [Once they are out of sight (or hearing) of any source of danger, they can act as they want. Panicked characters cower if they are prevented from fleeing.
"They can act as they want" is very, very different from "the panicked effect would have effectively ended." plus "being a sound (sonic) effect, unless it was continual, there is scope to say that the effect had worn off or dissipated."
The source of the fear is the Yeth hound not, the howling. And panicked don't require you to be out of sight and hearing of the source but of any danger. and the panic effect resume as soon as you see or hear any source of danger, not only if you see the Yeth hound.And another citation for you, from page 563 of the CRB, exactlya bove the one you cited:
Frightened: Characters who are frightened are shaken, and in addition they flee from the source of their fear as quickly as they can. They can choose the paths of their flight. Other than that stipulation, once they are out of sight (or hearing) of the source of their fear, they can act as they want. If the duration of their fear continues, however, characters can be forced to flee if the source of their fear presents itself again. Characters unable to flee can fight (though they are still shaken).
plus
Panicked is a more extreme state of fear than shaken or frightened.
The Yeth hound bay has a duration, its effect don't end because the hound has stopped baying.
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So implying that it's an inferior playstyle is also not cool.
Not at all inferior, but it is different -- enough so that it needs to be clarified between the DM and all the players in advance. That was the whole point of my 1st post.
OK, but I know some DM's would be generous enough to interperate a door as a physical barrier to a source of danger and that in itself would qualify as a return to a normal (non-panicked) state. I also know another that would say, "nope no barrier there, keep on running". It is up to each individual DM's interpretation and implemantation of that situation.
@Diego, IMO it is the Bay/Howl not the Yeth Hound, it is an (Su) ability of the hound named as BAY page #286 Beastiary #1. You are free to interpret that as you see fit, as am I. However, it is slated as a "sonic (as in sound) mind affecting fear effect", not my words but a mouthfull, so one could or maybe should interpret that as the Howl/Bark/Bay of the creature, not it's looks or size or bad-breath. "SONIC", again I could be wrong, I am not preaching the Gospel here, nor would I want to!
I am sure we all remember movies like Jurrasic Park where the good guys/girls spend half the movie blocking doors against a dino that has them at least panicked if not absolutely s#!^!*g themselves, but that is just the movies and not Pathy. I'm sure you get the imagery though!?
Brave Wizard holding the door whilst all the warriors flee for 7 rounds and then have to leg it back to the group. And yes I have seen this sort of thing happen, it was damn funny though!
It would go something like this!?
"Oh, where've you been buddy?", "oh I don't know, I heard that dog bark, dropped my bundle and went for a seven round stroll down the hall, but it took me another seven to run back to you, are you OK!?", "yep thanks just fine, seen my familiar anywhere?"
Some DM's even scoff at the idea of Fighters running from fear at all, stand and die is their mantra...so be it, who am I to argue, it is after all their campaign! But I do question making a Paladin run from anything!? Even if a Paladin knows that the entire group has fled and abandoned him to his doom, I would argue that a true Paladin should be able to say, "well this is my last stand" and mean it, so many players have indicated that is what they want their Paladins to be able to do, not run like any other coward. To some this would epitomise the true grit of the Paladin, belief that their God will pull them through or die bathed in true glory and honor! Suicidal, yep absolutely, but is it epic, glorious and honorable, 100%!
Seriously, thank you for the reference Diego but I knew that one. I still would and could see how a door could be seen to be cancelling a fear, frightened or panicked condition. Anyway, after 2d4 rds., the effect suddenly and inexplicably stops, so a generous or lenient DM would not be too out of line ruling in favour of the party.
Thanks all, until we get some clarification we are left to interpret those rules as individuals...RAW vs. RAI.
Be good peeps! :)
And yes I know Paladins are immune to fear at 3rd level, that can be ten sessions into a campaign. Too late in the instance that the OP's character is long dead!.
@questions R.I.P. to your character. :(
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You are seriously trying to argue that a effect with a duration end as soon as the source stop, regardless of the duration?
I would hate to be a bard with lingering performance in your games.
Or someone with dazzling display intimating a target for more than 1 round.
Wait, dazzling display is a full round action, so its effect stop as soon as I end it. So the target is intimidated only during my round? After all at the end of the round he isn't seeing the display anymore.
And barred door don't stop sound, especially the sound of a ability that can be heard at 300'.
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The source of a effect is the creature using it. Or you are trying to argue that a vampire dominate ability don't work because the source of the domination is the dominate ability, not the vampire?
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And last but not least: "once they are out of sight (or hearing) of the source of their fear" is inclusive, not exclusive. You check both things. You should be out of sight and out of hearing of the source of your fear to be able to act normally.
@Diego
Please, I am not seriously arguing anything. I am seeking clarification on how to interperate the two states of panicked, as per the differences on pg 563 and 568.
However, your examples are not the best as there appears to be holes/ommisions in your reading of the text, in bold below:
Your Bard comment = Lingering Performance
Prerequisite: Bardic performance class feature.
Benefit: The bonuses and penalties from your bardic performance continue for 2 rounds after you cease performing. Any other requirement, such as range or specific conditions, must still be met for the effect to continue. If you begin a new bardic performance during this time, the effects of the previous performance immediately cease.
So, if somebody is deaf or blind a bardic performance will not work under certain conditions, likewise I'm thinking most DM's will not let you perform and effect others through a door, as your opponent is both unseen and not clearly audible. It does clearly state that if you begin another performance, the current one ends, so this could be interpreted as meaning that the effect of 'your' performance is continued, just like the Bay ability has a duration.
Your Dazzling Display comment = Well considering Dazzling Display can be used to intimidate an opponent, or more specifically to 'demoralize' (pg 99 CRB) so we look here: It manifests as Shaken.
Demoralize: You can use this skill to cause an opponent to
become shaken for a number of rounds. The DC of this check
is equal to 10 + the target’s Hit Dice + the target’s Wisdom
modifier. If you are successful, the target is shaken for
1 round. This duration increases by 1 round for every 5 by
which you beat the DC. You can only threaten an opponent
in this way if it is within 30 feet and can clearly see and hear
you. Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the
duration; it does not create a stronger fear condition.
So, Daz Display has the shaken effect, not panicked, frightened or fear!
Next, you say barred doors don't stop sound....wow, I never disagreed with that, but it does stop a visual connection to the source of fear, panic or fright. Would you allow a Bard to perform against an opponent through a door?
So, I believe this may apply:
Other than that stipulation, once they are out of sight (or hearing) of the source of their fear, they can act as they want.
Yes, I agree that it is inclusive, both conditions, the sound and the sight of the source of that fear must be considered.
The the vampire thing: I am certainly NOT arguing that duration effects are to be ignored, but under certain conditions they may be!?!?
You are stretching my words and intent, that's fine, but I feel I must clarify. The specific example we were discussing was a Yeth Hounds Bay, not it's looks, size, smell or bad-breath. So, I reason that being a sonic attack it is the sound. So then we are back, (after a bit of a departure) to wandering how the rules of pg 563 CRB are to be interpreted with regard to a sound that is causing the panicked effect. That is fairly clear in the rules on pg 563 CRB, but is not identical to the references on pg 568.
The only point of real contention is whether the BAY (in this instance) lasted for 7 rounds or was it a single bark that caused the PC's to flee!?
Again, I am not arguing, I am respectfully seeking clarification. Surely you can see the conflict in the rules!? How each DM plays that, in my experience, can be totally different.
I hope we all agree though that some DM's play NPC's as pets and some as aids to advancing the storyline. There is no right or wrong way, but I think we know which one the majority of players would rather be under.
Peace!
Well done, congratulations!
I am glad to know that you managed to make him see the light (Whoops, pardon the pun!)
Good luck and enjoy your gaming. :)
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Again you reiterate your opinion that things with a duration don't have a duration.
Wonderful.
Beside that:
So, Daz Display has the shaken effect, not panicked, frightened or fear!
Fear
Spells, magic items, and certain monsters can affect characters with fear. In most cases, the character makes a Will saving throw to resist this effect, and a failed roll means that the character is shaken, frightened, or panicked.
Shaken: Characters who are shaken take a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.
Frightened: Characters who are frightened are shaken, and in addition they flee from the source of their fear as quickly as they can. They can choose the paths of their flight. Other than that stipulation, once they are out of sight (or hearing) of the source of their fear, they can act as they want. If the duration of their fear continues, however, characters can be forced to flee if the source of their fear presents itself again. Characters unable to flee can fight (though they are still shaken).
Panicked: Characters who are panicked are shaken, and they run away from the source of their fear as quickly as they can, dropping whatever they are holding. Other than running away from the source, their paths are random. They flee from all other dangers that confront them rather than facing those dangers. Once they are out of sight (or hearing) of any source of danger, they can act as they want. Panicked characters cower if they are prevented from fleeing.
Becoming Even More Fearful: Fear effects are cumulative. A shaken character who is made shaken again becomes frightened, and a shaken character who is made frightened becomes panicked instead. A frightened character who is made shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead.
I.e.. shaken si a fear effect.
*FACE-PALM*
The difference between shaken and panicked is quoted in your own post!
OK dude you win! I must admit that I struggle in a discussion with someone who disproves his point with his own posts.
Again, PEACE!
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Diego is right, just because you can act normal does not end the condition.
If you are panicked for 7 rounds you are panicked for 7 rounds, being able to act normally in the 3 middle rounds does not lift the condition (unless you do something to lift it).
@DaHofi
I totally agree! To be fair I think this quote was badly worded by me:
I have pointed out clarifications in Bold.
My point is, that had you been able to close that door, the panicked effect would have effectively ended after a round, (the effect, not the condition)(assuming the Yeth was not still howling) you could then act as you like. I assume from this RAW that if it was a sight based fear effect, it would recommence as soon as you saw the source of that fear. However, being a sound (sonic) effect, unless it was continual, there is scope to say that the effect (not the condition) had worn off or dissipated.
I apologise for my wording, I can see how that implies that the condition ends, but that was not my intent.
I further agree that the duration of the Yeth Hounds Bay does not end, however, the RAW does imply that in a situation where you have been Panicked can be mitigated or "they can act as they want", provided the paramaters on page 563 are met.
Truly, sorry for the confusion and thanks for pointing out the need for clarification.
Anyways peace!
Going off of the entry that says you may act as you want once out of sight or hearing I read that to mean that you have to be out of range of both of those before you can act as you want. As long as you can either see or hear the source of your panicked condition you must flee from it. So a Yeth Hound behind closed doors snarling and growling and scratching at the door would still cause you to flee. Its up to the GM to decide how far away you can hear said Yeth Hound through a closed door.
Its up to the GM to decide how far away you can hear said Yeth Hound through a closed door.
Only in 1e/2e. By RAW, in 3e we had the Listen skill instead, and in PF we have a skill called Perception, which includes DCs for hearing stuff, with modifiers for distance, intervening doors, etc.
Just as, when a character climbs a rope, it's not up to the GM to decide if he/she falls. It's decided by rolling a d20, adding the Climb skill modifier, and comparing to the listed DC.
Its up to the GM to decide how far away you can hear said Yeth Hound through a closed door.Only in 1e/2e. By RAW, in 3e we had the Listen skill instead, and in PF we have a skill called Perception, which includes DCs for hearing stuff, with modifiers for distance, intervening doors, etc.
Just as, when a character climbs a rope, it's not up to the GM to decide if he/she falls. It's decided by rolling a d20, adding the Climb skill modifier, and comparing to the listed DC.
Technically true but I don't know of a GM who is going to have a player roll a Perception check every 10' with increasing +1 DC until they succeed. Instead the DM is going to decide how far the PC may reasonably not be able hear the source and call for the check at that point.
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Technically true but I don't know of a GM who is going to have a player roll a Perception check every 10' with increasing +1 DC until they succeed. Instead the DM is going to decide how far the PC may reasonably not be able hear the source and call for the check at that point.Its up to the GM to decide how far away you can hear said Yeth Hound through a closed door.Only in 1e/2e. By RAW, in 3e we had the Listen skill instead, and in PF we have a skill called Perception, which includes DCs for hearing stuff, with modifiers for distance, intervening doors, etc.
Just as, when a character climbs a rope, it's not up to the GM to decide if he/she falls. It's decided by rolling a d20, adding the Climb skill modifier, and comparing to the listed DC.
Agreed, it would be madness to penalize the characters with the better perception.
To me making a successful perception check is more than simply hearing something. It implies having an idea of what you are hearing or seeing.That noise in distance can be the Hound of Baskerville, a Hound of Tindalos or a normal hound. With a successful perception check you are capable to dismiss the normal sounds that aren't relevant.
Same thing for seeing something. That dot in distance is a elk, a centaur or a lamia? You need to concentrate on it or it is meaningless?
I agree with OldSkool, if you see or hear the creature you fear the panic resume. It don't matter if the panic was originated by a visula, sonic or spell effect.
After all if we are made fearful by a spell we don't see the spell being cast again the next round. The origin of the fear is the creature, not the effect that originated the fear.
@ AJAG
I am happy to see that we have cleared the misunderstanding.
I don't know the Emoticon for smily face on this website but if I did I would insert it here.
We use :-) or :)
AFAIK there are no emoticon in this forum.On the other hand I don't think that being a jerk to a jerk will "cure" him. Probably it will make him even more of a jerk.
:(