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questions wrote:

It was a party of 4 and i think we had leveled but he said we wouldn't level until we rested, but the goblins upstairs were practically push overs we plowed through them pretty easily so most of the group wanted to stay and have the stealthy members scout ahead and see if we needed to rest up for the encounters ahead. (Bad idea apparently)

I've played with the DM before on a few campaigns and he has always had a since of him vs the party, we fought a beholder once and he said before the fight that when we fight the beholder he was going to kill at least 2 party members (granted its a beholder, but who says that to the group they're DMing). when I've made characters in the past, i made them as tough as possible because if i don't he just flat out murders them. I made the character for this campaign as resilient as humanly possible and he seemed to take it personally when the enemies couldn't hit my guy, he said he was going to knock up the difficulty of the encounters which would hurt other members of the group so i should dumb down my character.

I also can't name the number of times he has had the bad wizard of the month use hit and run tactics with the dominate spell and members of our group.

Ouch, I had a GM like that before. Everyone was annoyed by his attitude. Eventually I got fed up and started making wizards/sorcerers with Con as a dump stat and a tendency to get close to the action.

It took the GM a while to realize that I was using his murderous style to give everyone else enough money to buy anything they needed to survive. When he threatened to ban me from the game if I didn't stop the entire table mutinied. We ended up letting the GM back into the group as long as he would stop being such a jerk and things have been great since.

So if you continue to play games with him and don't want to see another cherished character bite it, try my strategy.

Idea noted.

And yes I know Paladins are immune to fear at 3rd level, that can be ten sessions into a campaign. Too late in the instance that the OP's character is long dead!.

@questions R.I.P. to your character. :(

actually funny story, I read the Yeth hounds bio in hindsight and convinced the DM that the Yeth Hound wouldn't have followed us up the stairs because they are afraid of sunlight and the structure we were in was in the basement of a dungeon crudely created by goblins (That or it was an old abandoned keep with holes everywhere in the ceiling, the state of the ceiling wasn't really covered in depth by the DM because he didn't think it would matter, shows him I guess.) so there is all sorts of holes in the ceiling where sunlight peeks through on the first floor. So no one died apparently because the dogs would have been too afraid to follow their victims into sunlight; but we did all collapse the rope bridge that was at the start of the dungeon when we all ran across it in the panicked condition at the same time.

So no dead characters, but we lucked out big time...

It's a game where success is not guaranteed. This is a game where it is the DMs job to put you up against things that can potentially kill your character. A bad save is a part of the game. It happens. A bunch of bad saves happens. Most DMs will be feeling bad about the TPK, he'll have put as much effort into preparing the game as you (and, let's be honest, more than most players - that is in my *cough* years of experience an unusual amount of work) to see it go down in flames is hard.

And the adventure path you appear to be running is notoriously tough in places. Before I'd be willing to convict the DM of vindictiveness I'd want to know a few things first, such as how many in the party? a party of 4 should be comfortably lvl3 if it's the encounter I think it is, If you have a lot more players it can be difficult to adjust encounters to compensate. What else has the DM done to convince you of vindictiveness?

It was a party of 4 and i think we had leveled but he said we wouldn't level until we rested, but the goblins upstairs were practically push overs we plowed through them pretty easily so most of the group wanted to stay and have the stealthy members scout ahead and see if we needed to rest up for the encounters ahead. (Bad idea apparently)

I've played with the DM before on a few campaigns and he has always had a since of him vs the party, we fought a beholder once and he said before the fight that when we fight the beholder he was going to kill at least 2 party members (granted its a beholder, but who says that to the group they're DMing). when I've made characters in the past, i made them as tough as possible because if i don't he just flat out murders them. I made the character for this campaign as resilient as humanly possible and he seemed to take it personally when the enemies couldn't hit my guy, he said he was going to knock up the difficulty of the encounters which would hurt other members of the group so i should dumb down my character.

I also can't name the number of times he has had the bad wizard of the month use hit and run tactics with the dominate spell and members of our group.

What a nasty DM! I would have allowed you to shut that door.

Let me guess...Thistletop and Nualia's little Yeth friends?
I am with you "questions", the rules allow a DM to handwave anything, and IMO it makes sense that you would indeed try to shut that door, movies do not indicate how people behave in real life, anybody knows that! In this instance I would have let you try to close that door, maybe a Reflex DC 5 to 10 skill check??? (because there is that chance you freeze or fumble) and then moved on from there.
Sounds like the inexperienced DM is going to wear that TPK guilt for a while!? or not!

Ever since 1st Ed. S4 "The lost caverns of Tsojcanth" when I had a party of 7, of which all but 1 failed their saves vs. a Gorgimera's Flesh to Stone breath weapon, I always try to allow for an escape route or some way of recovery, the dice can just be so cruel sometimes! I decided not to allow blind luck to rule my campaigns from then on. If and when I feel there is a chance of a TPK (unless the group do something dumb) I always plan an escape or recovery, or a Plan "B". TPK's can quickly ruin not only the fun, but a DM's reputation.

Mantra: Never let the rules or dice get in the way of telling the story.

Enjoy! and better luck next time! :)

ya it was that place, he's been DMing for decades now though, he knew a TKP was coming, when we all got panicked at once he determined it took the group 3 rounds to reach the suspension bridge at the start of the dungeon and then he collapsed it once we got there so if the dogs didn't kill us the fall would have. After this event, I honestly am going to quit pathfinder, i put weeks of work into this character and because I failed one save he died in 3 rounds. I thought he was a good character, but with the saves or fail system in the game its so easy for a vindictive DM to just petrify a character or to disintegrate your character in one unlucky shot.

Yeah... couldn't close the door. Sucks, but mechanically true. How many CR 3 Yeth Hounds was your group of level 2s facing?

2, the problem was that we had to make a will save for both hounds, half of us made it for the first hound then failed on the second hound.

questions wrote:

DaHofi wrote:

"Panicked: A panicked creature must drop anything it holds and flee at top speed from the source of its fear, as well as any other dangers it encounters, along a random path. It can't take any other actions."

I think that makes it pretty clear!

In addition what you quoted has an additional condition:
"A panicked creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape."

so slamming a door they are actively gripping before they are panicked and at the time they are making the save is beyond reasoning? but using spells and abilities they have while they are panicked to further escape their attacker is OK?

"A panicked creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape."

Opening or closing a door is a move action, even if it is only a little. And that is explicitly disallowed, while special abilities, including spells are explicitly allowed. If you want an RP interpretation: "In your panic you slam shut the door, but the door does not hold and hinges open again."

Why do you think emergency exits open in the direction of escape and have large handles you mostly dont even need to use?

questions wrote:

If they cannot take any other actions than fleeing then by that logic it is also safe to say the afflicted party couldn't open doors to get further away from the enemy they would just cower in the corner of the room while taking hits from the enemy.

That is my interpretation of the rule* and that is what is written in the Rule. Well unless they have a spell or special ability to get away further.

*but personally i think i would panicked creatures let open unlocked (light) doors where the players already know that no monster is behind. Would not want a panicked player to escalate the encounter further.

having to use a move action to open or close a door, especially when its only an inch open seems stupid, there is no way it takes that much in a real life scenario, its more like a swift action in RL. (I know this isn't a real life scenario please don't waste a post pointing that out to me).

And that RP explanation would have made a lot of since in the situation.

questions wrote:

Because stating that the afflicted person "can't take any other actions" then 5 lines later stating that it can use other actions if not specifically stating that they must, is counter intuitive.

It seems clear that the intention was that the only actions allowed (or mandated) are those which allow the character to get away faster.

Haste, Teleport or Flight get you away faster, so are optional unless a character is cornered and those spells would help, in which case the character *must* use those spells.

So instead of this line :

"It can't take any other actions."

substitute

"It can't take any other actions, unless those actions would improve its ability to move faster."

Since closing a door does not make you move faster, that action is not allowed.

Ya I could see that as a fair assessment, but what about spells meant to hamper your enemies abilities to pursue you, wouldn't that also be in line with that thought. if the big scary monster was caught in a web wouldn't that hurt his ability to come after you.

questions wrote:

Treefolk wrote:

Opening a door to continue fleeing is something a panicked creature does as that would fall under "special abilities" that could be used to continue fleeing. Aside from that, you are correct in the fact that a panicked creature cannot take actions such as closing doors or knocking obstructions into the path of a pursuer.

I am curious. In the situation detailed above, were there two doors? Otherwise how did the door become cracked after the rogue shut it?

ya it was a double door

I find it silly that your rogue declined the opportunity to close both doors. Any reason why?

doesn't matter apparently the DM says Yeth Hounds can open doors...

Also hes a new player

Everyone was level 2 at this point so failing was either a 50/50 chance for the group

Opening a door to continue fleeing is something a panicked creature does as that would fall under "special abilities" that could be used to continue fleeing. Aside from that, you are correct in the fact that a panicked creature cannot take actions such as closing doors or knocking obstructions into the path of a pursuer.

I am curious. In the situation detailed above, were there two doors? Otherwise how did the door become cracked after the rogue shut it?

ya it was a double door

How many times have you seen a film where someone is running away and is completely unable to open a door? Even calm you see people everyday pushing on doors that clearly state 'pull' on them (um, not that I've ever done that...honest!).

Logic and panic don't usually go together very well, almost by definition. Your GM has called it and ultimately, with something like this, it is his decision.

Also, sounds like everyone failing their will saves had more to do with the TPK than the door.

But my point is that if they are fumbling over opening something as simple as a door then how can they cast spells or do anything in such a state. This condition is poorly implemented it either needs to

A) needs to go to the extreme of specifically stating that the only thing they can do is flee in terror and not be able to cast spells or use abilities regardless of the situation.

or

B) allow the afflicted to take simple actions such as opening/closing doors that are in their reach. Its not asking for a lot and if I was flipping out and I saw something scary in a room the first thing I would do is slam the door shut, then run away screaming.

Because stating that the afflicted person "can't take any other actions" then 5 lines later stating that it can use other actions if not specifically stating that they must, is counter intuitive.

"Panicked: A panicked creature must drop anything it holds and flee at top speed from the source of its fear, as well as any other dangers it encounters, along a random path. It can't take any other actions."

I think that makes it pretty clear!

In addition what you quoted has an additional condition:
"A panicked creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape."

so slamming a door they are actively gripping before they are panicked and at the time they are making the save is beyond reasoning? but using spells and abilities they have while they are panicked to further escape their attacker is OK?

"A panicked creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape."

If they cannot take any other actions than fleeing then by that logic it is also safe to say the afflicted party couldn't open doors to get further away from the enemy they would just cower in the corner of the room while taking hits from the enemy.

"Panicked: A panicked creature must drop anything it holds and flee at top speed from the source of its fear, as well as any other dangers it encounters, along a random path. It can't take any other actions. In addition, the creature takes a –2 penalty on all saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. If cornered, a panicked creature cowers and does not attack, typically using the total defense action in combat. A panicked creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.

Panicked is a more extreme state of fear than shaken or frightened."
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Recently I was playing in a game and the question of what a player can do while he is panicked arose. The scenario played out as thus,

The rogue and I were scouting ahead to look for possible dangers that we might encounter, bad idea, but we did it anyways. Anyway the Rogue and I slowly peeked into the room to get a good head count of the enemies we would be face and to inform the rest of the group. One of the enemies , a Keth Hound, spots us, the rogue rolled a higher initiative than the enemy so he closed the door and started down the hallway back to the group. The enemy that spotted us charged at me now as the door is only slightly cracked open and uses an ability that gives me and the rogue the Panicked condition. On my turn I tell the DM that I am going to slam the door and run as fast as a I can away from the bad guy because that is what your supposed to do. He tells me that I can't do that, because the panicked condition specifically states that the only thing I can do is run away, so I can't slam the door that is probably only an inch open because I am too scared to do that.

I keep arguing that the door is only an inch open and that my character peeked into the room with the intention of closing the door if he was caught like he was and that the panicked condition only enforces the idea that I would close the door because whatever is in that room has scared my character too the point that all he wants to do is run away. It even says in the panicked conditions description that "A panicked creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape." to which I interpreted would mean that as a panicked character I would not only close the door if panicked but do anything and everything I could to get away from that keth hound going after me. To which he interpreted that the only thing I or any other afflicted member of the party could do is physically run away, no hiding behind doors, no throwing chairs in their way so slow them down, only running away and getting picked off slowly because they have a fly speed of 60 feet.

Either way he TPKed the group because everyone was panicked and he got 7 rounds of free hits on everyone because the only action we could take is running away.

Am I wrong for thinking that I could close the door and effectively lock the hounds in the room (they would be locked in the room because hounds can't physically open doors, to my knowledge) or is panicked so magically terrifying that you cannot take even the most basic actions while you are afflicted.

What can you do specifically while you are Panicked and what can you not do while you are panicked?