AJAG's page

@DaHofi
I totally agree! To be fair I think this quote was badly worded by me:
I have pointed out clarifications in Bold.

My point is, that had you been able to close that door, the panicked effect would have effectively ended after a round, (the effect, not the condition)(assuming the Yeth was not still howling) you could then act as you like. I assume from this RAW that if it was a sight based fear effect, it would recommence as soon as you saw the source of that fear. However, being a sound (sonic) effect, unless it was continual, there is scope to say that the effect (not the condition) had worn off or dissipated.

I apologise for my wording, I can see how that implies that the condition ends, but that was not my intent.

I further agree that the duration of the Yeth Hounds Bay does not end, however, the RAW does imply that in a situation where you have been Panicked can be mitigated or "they can act as they want", provided the paramaters on page 563 are met.

Truly, sorry for the confusion and thanks for pointing out the need for clarification.
Anyways peace!

*FACE-PALM*

The difference between shaken and panicked is quoted in your own post!
OK dude you win! I must admit that I struggle in a discussion with someone who disproves his point with his own posts.

Again, PEACE!

Well done, congratulations!
I am glad to know that you managed to make him see the light (Whoops, pardon the pun!)

Good luck and enjoy your gaming. :)

@Diego
Please, I am not seriously arguing anything. I am seeking clarification on how to interperate the two states of panicked, as per the differences on pg 563 and 568.
However, your examples are not the best as there appears to be holes/ommisions in your reading of the text, in bold below:

Your Bard comment = Lingering Performance
Prerequisite: Bardic performance class feature.
Benefit: The bonuses and penalties from your bardic performance continue for 2 rounds after you cease performing. Any other requirement, such as range or specific conditions, must still be met for the effect to continue. If you begin a new bardic performance during this time, the effects of the previous performance immediately cease.

So, if somebody is deaf or blind a bardic performance will not work under certain conditions, likewise I'm thinking most DM's will not let you perform and effect others through a door, as your opponent is both unseen and not clearly audible. It does clearly state that if you begin another performance, the current one ends, so this could be interpreted as meaning that the effect of 'your' performance is continued, just like the Bay ability has a duration.

Your Dazzling Display comment = Well considering Dazzling Display can be used to intimidate an opponent, or more specifically to 'demoralize' (pg 99 CRB) so we look here: It manifests as Shaken.

Demoralize: You can use this skill to cause an opponent to
become shaken for a number of rounds. The DC of this check
is equal to 10 + the target’s Hit Dice + the target’s Wisdom
modifier. If you are successful, the target is shaken for
1 round. This duration increases by 1 round for every 5 by
which you beat the DC. You can only threaten an opponent
in this way if it is within 30 feet and can clearly see and hear
you. Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the
duration; it does not create a stronger fear condition.

So, Daz Display has the shaken effect, not panicked, frightened or fear!

Next, you say barred doors don't stop sound....wow, I never disagreed with that, but it does stop a visual connection to the source of fear, panic or fright. Would you allow a Bard to perform against an opponent through a door?

So, I believe this may apply:
Other than that stipulation, once they are out of sight (or hearing) of the source of their fear, they can act as they want.

Yes, I agree that it is inclusive, both conditions, the sound and the sight of the source of that fear must be considered.

The the vampire thing: I am certainly NOT arguing that duration effects are to be ignored, but under certain conditions they may be!?!?
You are stretching my words and intent, that's fine, but I feel I must clarify. The specific example we were discussing was a Yeth Hounds Bay, not it's looks, size, smell or bad-breath. So, I reason that being a sonic attack it is the sound. So then we are back, (after a bit of a departure) to wandering how the rules of pg 563 CRB are to be interpreted with regard to a sound that is causing the panicked effect. That is fairly clear in the rules on pg 563 CRB, but is not identical to the references on pg 568.

The only point of real contention is whether the BAY (in this instance) lasted for 7 rounds or was it a single bark that caused the PC's to flee!?

Again, I am not arguing, I am respectfully seeking clarification. Surely you can see the conflict in the rules!? How each DM plays that, in my experience, can be totally different.

I hope we all agree though that some DM's play NPC's as pets and some as aids to advancing the storyline. There is no right or wrong way, but I think we know which one the majority of players would rather be under.

Peace!

And yes I know Paladins are immune to fear at 3rd level, that can be ten sessions into a campaign. Too late in the instance that the OP's character is long dead!.

@questions R.I.P. to your character. :(

OK, but I know some DM's would be generous enough to interperate a door as a physical barrier to a source of danger and that in itself would qualify as a return to a normal (non-panicked) state. I also know another that would say, "nope no barrier there, keep on running". It is up to each individual DM's interpretation and implemantation of that situation.

@Diego, IMO it is the Bay/Howl not the Yeth Hound, it is an (Su) ability of the hound named as BAY page #286 Beastiary #1. You are free to interpret that as you see fit, as am I. However, it is slated as a "sonic (as in sound) mind affecting fear effect", not my words but a mouthfull, so one could or maybe should interpret that as the Howl/Bark/Bay of the creature, not it's looks or size or bad-breath. "SONIC", again I could be wrong, I am not preaching the Gospel here, nor would I want to!

I am sure we all remember movies like Jurrasic Park where the good guys/girls spend half the movie blocking doors against a dino that has them at least panicked if not absolutely s#!^!*g themselves, but that is just the movies and not Pathy. I'm sure you get the imagery though!?

Brave Wizard holding the door whilst all the warriors flee for 7 rounds and then have to leg it back to the group. And yes I have seen this sort of thing happen, it was damn funny though!
It would go something like this!?
"Oh, where've you been buddy?", "oh I don't know, I heard that dog bark, dropped my bundle and went for a seven round stroll down the hall, but it took me another seven to run back to you, are you OK!?", "yep thanks just fine, seen my familiar anywhere?"

Some DM's even scoff at the idea of Fighters running from fear at all, stand and die is their mantra...so be it, who am I to argue, it is after all their campaign! But I do question making a Paladin run from anything!? Even if a Paladin knows that the entire group has fled and abandoned him to his doom, I would argue that a true Paladin should be able to say, "well this is my last stand" and mean it, so many players have indicated that is what they want their Paladins to be able to do, not run like any other coward. To some this would epitomise the true grit of the Paladin, belief that their God will pull them through or die bathed in true glory and honor! Suicidal, yep absolutely, but is it epic, glorious and honorable, 100%!

Seriously, thank you for the reference Diego but I knew that one. I still would and could see how a door could be seen to be cancelling a fear, frightened or panicked condition. Anyway, after 2d4 rds., the effect suddenly and inexplicably stops, so a generous or lenient DM would not be too out of line ruling in favour of the party.

Thanks all, until we get some clarification we are left to interpret those rules as individuals...RAW vs. RAI.

Be good peeps! :)

@OldSkoolRPG, that's cool buddy, no sweat, it actually helps that you question this, as I do not pretend to actually know what is intended, and your post means we are more likely to get an official response from the devs.

Cheers :)

Ummm,

Just to note this: from the CRB 563

Panicked: Characters who are panicked are shaken, and
they run away from the source of their fear as quickly as
they can, dropping whatever they are holding. Other than
running away from the source, their paths are random.
They flee from all other dangers that confront them
rather than facing those dangers. Once they are out of
sight (or hearing) of any source of danger, they can act as
they want. Panicked characters cower if they are prevented
from fleeing.

From Beastiary #1 page 286

Bay (Su) When a yeth hound howls or barks, all creatures except other evil outsiders within a 300-foot spread must succeed on a DC 12 Will save or become panicked for 2d4 rounds. This is a sonic mindaffecting fear effect. Whether or not the save is successful, an affected creature is immune to the same hound’s bay for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based.

@Diego Rossi,

Sorry, not to argue, just to point out that I said "innate to Yeth Hounds", now in essence I agree with you that animals can be trained to do more than just open doors, but that said, how many DM's will grant that innately or even at all to your Druids companion, a familiar or an Eidolon. Some DM's will and some will not. Unfortuantely it is not specifically covered in the rules to my knowledge, please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

But, and this is just 'my' opinion, a savage Yeth Hound would fail at opening doors, intelligent as it is, and without any indication of such training in the RotRL AP, makes no mention of it.
Would Nualia train them to do that? Perhaps! Again, up to the DM.

However,

The argument about the panic wearing off because the yeth hound isn't howling don't hold water. The panic rules don't work that way.

Once they are out of sight (or hearing) of any source of danger, they can act as they want.

OK, that seems pretty clear to me, but I understand how and maybe why you feel the 'panicked' rules do not work that way, but the RAW is fairly clear about "once they are out of (hearing)".
So if the Yeth is not howling and the PC's cannot hear it, it would seem to imply the effect wears off, or more specifically, "they can act as they want".

Now, I agree in that if you are facing a Yeth Hound and are struck by this panicked effect, it would continue to affect you as long as the "Source" of that threat is present, however, a threat on the other side of a door does not to me in and of itself cause you to keep running IMO.
I understand if you wish to adjudicate it this way but I think it could be a little bit harsh, and I suspect most players would agree.
I conceed that many would not play it this way, but according to the RAW, it could and probably should be implemented like that.

This could use some clarification from the friendly staff at Paizo.

Sorry, Diego, again, I am not arguing with you, I would still however, prefer an official response on this before I took a hard line stance on that, or if you could please, show me where you derive your interpration of this Panicked effect from or a rules reference.

But honestly thank you for your opinion, as it will indeed help us flesh this out, and maybe get some clarification. I would be happy to hear from other GM's on their personal opinion of this RAW and how they interperate the Panicked rule.

Cheers :)

@DaHofi

Yep, that is right, two contradictory rules for the same effect.

It seems odd to me that the tough guys in PF, the Fighters etc...are the ones with the worst saves vs. fear (being a WILL save).
However, the Clerics and others (with the good WILL saves) can usually manage their saves.
So, essentially, what we end up with, is a system where the brave warriors run and the weakling Wizards and Clerics hang around to fight!
Really?

I know that Fighters get this bonus:
Bravery (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a fighter gains a +1
bonus on Will saves against fear. This bonus increases by
+1 for every four levels beyond 2nd.

So, as base saves a Fighter at 10th level has a base WILL save of +3 and the Bravery bonus of +3, for a total of +6 against a fear effect, whereas the guys with good saves have a +7 WILL save vs. fear, OK!?!?
This is not a major thing, but it does seem anomalous. Keep in mind the Paladin has good WILL saves but the poor Ranger at 10th level is saving vs. fear at a measly +3. Not good!

But in my experience, it is still the Fighters that usually end up running. That is not brave or heroic! I know it is just a mechanic of the game, but it does lead into some pretty farsical situations where the Wizard and Cleric are holding the line as the Fighters and Rogues run for their lives.

Still a great game, I just felt the need to point that out.

Just to note this: from the CRB 563

Panicked: Characters who are panicked are shaken, and
they run away from the source of their fear as quickly as
they can, dropping whatever they are holding. Other than
running away from the source, their paths are random.
They flee from all other dangers that confront them
rather than facing those dangers. Once they are out of
sight (or hearing) of any source of danger, they can act as
they want. Panicked characters cower if they are prevented
from fleeing.

Of course, GM's can interperate this any way they want, but unless the Yeth was continually howling or you had Line-of-sight to them, I am thinking that your "vindictive DM" (your words not mine!) made sure that you couldn't close that door, otherwise you (being out of sight=yes, out of hearing range=maybe) could have tried to hold that door and then after the seven rounds of panic were over, act as you like.

My point is, that had you been able to close that door, the panicked effect would have effectively ended after a round, (assuming the Yeth was not still howling) you could then act as you like. I assume from this RAW that if it was a sight based fear effect, it would recommence as soon as you saw the source of that fear. However, being a sound (sonic) effect, unless it was continual, there is scope to say that the effect had worn off or dissipated.
Each DM to their own, but I try to make low level adventures fun but not deadly. Seems like the DM was having a bad day!

@questions, don't give up on Pathy, it is a good system with some flaws, but I believe this TPK has more to do with the way your DM wanted that encounter to go, rather harsh, I feel! Sorry, just my opinion.

Now another thing, a 6 Intelligence creature is smart compaired to your average animal, but does this necessarily mean that they know how to open doors? I don't think that knowledge is innate to Yeth Hounds!? I know this didn't happen but you mentioned it, so just say'n! This is arbitted by your respective DM, I think he was being a bit harsh on you guys, especially as you were not facing the said BBEG, you know the Bad Girl with the funky arm!?

What a nasty DM! I would have allowed you to shut that door.
Let me guess...Thistletop and Nualia's little Yeth friends?
I am with you "questions", the rules allow a DM to handwave anything, and IMO it makes sense that you would indeed try to shut that door, movies do not indicate how people behave in real life, anybody knows that! In this instance I would have let you try to close that door, maybe a Reflex DC 5 to 10 skill check??? (because there is that chance you freeze or fumble) and then moved on from there.
Sounds like the inexperienced DM is going to wear that TPK guilt for a while!? or not!

Ever since 1st Ed. S4 "The lost caverns of Tsojcanth" when I had a party of 7, of which all but 1 failed their saves vs. a Gorgimera's Flesh to Stone breath weapon, I always try to allow for an escape route or some way of recovery, the dice can just be so cruel sometimes! I decided not to allow blind luck to rule my campaigns from then on. If and when I feel there is a chance of a TPK (unless the group do something dumb) I always plan an escape or recovery, or a Plan "B". TPK's can quickly ruin not only the fun, but a DM's reputation.

Mantra: Never let the rules or dice get in the way of telling the story.

Enjoy! and better luck next time! :)

Ah, a lady with taste!
Thanks, your not lookin' too bad yerself. :)

Be good to each other now!

Face-Palm...
Did I ask you for one?
I don't really mind though, cause you don't really matter! :P
As long as Paizo gets some feedback, it's all good!

I beg your pardon?
Meh, mind over matter!

This is exactly the right place to indicate to Paizo and the public at large that this product in particular is of little value if they purchased it with the assumption that it is up to Paizo's normally high standards, and perhaps also purchased on the assumption it could be used without hours of prep work, as marketed, out-of-the-box.

I was not rude, and I have not bagged the crap out of Paizo. I have done my research, found the product to be wanting IMO and posted here to offer my opinion. I have spent the cash, and guess what?
I certainly can have my say, without the disrespectful responses, thank you.

Good gaming peeps.

Well, awesome!

I am extremely disappointed with Paizo. Without needing to verify or acknowledge, it is very obvious that little or no playtesting has been done for this AP. Having already bought the six books, pawns and map pack, I can only thank you guys from saving me from buying $300 worth of painted figs for this path. In fact, I am moth-balling the project and will not buy anymore AP's.

After reading all nine pages of this thread, it seems bazaar that some will come out and defend Paizo at the outset, only to later admit that they have done a mountain of prep and rejigging just to run this...!

You buy a product, you expect it to work, very, very simple. Voting with my wallet, walking away!

Thankyou to the community for this heads-up and good gaming to all.

Hmmm, Inquisitor, I give a thumbs up, Cold Iron Warden, judgement is just so much more versatile than smite. Smite one or judge them "All".
Running this soon with a Paladin, Two-Weapon Fighter, a Priest of Imo and a Conjurer. Wish them luck, they all gonna die slow horrible deaths. Muhahahaha! :)

OK, my sincere apologies!

But every time I've searched this site for figs. I have failed to find that option. I must be blind! Will check again.
Having not been mentioned so far, in this thread, I didn't know the option was there.

Thanks for the heads up guys!

And sorry for misleading the community....Face palm! :/

:)

The randomization model is not about marketing, and it's not chosen because it's awesome—it's chosen because it's necessary. One of our other customers wrote up a pretty solid explanation of why it's necessary here. I hope you find it enlightening.

Many thanks for your quick response Vic.

Not arguing, just saying...Whilst you say "it's necessary", I believe there is nothing prohibiting you to offer a complete set of any given line of figures, except for the cost to the customer.

E.g. I paid AUS$20/booster for S&S figs x 12 = AUS$240, I did not get all the figs. that I wanted, conversely, I would have paid $350 or more to guarantee the complete set.

I understand the costs may be prohibitive to some, however, I for one would be willing to pay a little more per fig if they are the ones I wanted.

I accept that employing both sale models does slightly increase the cost of boosters/bricks and cases per unit, however, it need not necessarily be that way! IMO the majority or "all" of that cost could and should, be transferred to the individual buying the single figures or complete set.

I am fairly certain that those with some spare cash would accept the extra cost for the choice. This then comes back to how many smalls/commons and "unwanted" figures are manufactured and the cost disbursement between the packs and the individual figs. However, all manufacturers need to get their production levels & pricing models right, including those products which are unwanted and therefore sit on shelves.
I am sure you have done your marketing research as to what is more cost effective and acceptable to most, but the idea of randomly purchasing booster packs is not my personal preference.

The main issue, I believe, is that many of those posting here are frustrated that it seems that there is "No Way" to guarantee that you have all the figures, from a given set, that one desires.
Even buying a case, does not guarantee this!
If there were a pricing model, that absolutely guaranteed "at least" one of each figure or "only one" of each figure, I am sure many would make that purchase, whatever the price may be. {eg. myself}(Whilst understanding that all extra costs should be the burden of that choice, which should in no way impact on the cost of the boosters/bricks and cases for others.)

I will continue to be an avid supporter of your literature, I just wish both sale models for figures could be employed to facilitate customer choice.

Wishing you all the best! :)

Well,

I have bought over 12 individual boosters of S&S, the quality is generally very good, however, when their bad, they are terrible, requiring many touch ups and repaints.

The double-ups are completely frustrating, what do you do with 4 x Rat Swarms, 2 x Cannon Golems and 3 x Selissa (water naga) figures?

It's all in the marketing model, I do not like the idea of paying for a random box of figures. I tried it and I have to say that I will wait for individual figs to be released.

I for one would really prefer they just offered us the individual figures at a reasonable price, whatever that may be. Then we can purchase what we like and pay for what we expect.

I also play Minis-Battles like "Arcane Legions", and out of 500 odd figures, not one is missing anything and the paint jobs are excellent.
I don't know which company made them but the QC is outstanding.

Everything else Paizo sells is top notch quality and I will continue paying for their literature. On that, very well done and thanks!

Final note: I can live with and expect some quality issues with mass-painting, after all I can touch them up, but the figures missing arms and extremities should not have made it past QC. Sorry! Just my honest opinion.

Hay Daemonslye, would love to see your work, as I need a monster converter from 1E to Pathfinder for the "A" series, but there is no 'working link' in this post....I have tried multiple browsers with no luck!
Could somebody please post the working link again....Many thanks in advance!