Iroran Paladin / Oracle


Advice

Grand Lodge

I am looking to make a 15 point buy Angel-Blooded Aasimar Oracle/Iroran Paladin.

Starting 4th level.

Basically, maximize use of Charisma, and Strength.

All Paizo Pathfinder books available, ACG playtest, and anything from the Dreamscarred Press Path of War books.

Any advice?


Besides the Iroran Paladin guide,

15 pt. Str 16 Dex 12 Con 12 Int 8 Wis 7 Cha 15
Race - Str 18 Dex 12 Con 12 Int 8 Wis 7 Cha 17
Level- Str 18 Dex 12 Con 12 Int 8 Wis 7 Cha 18

Way I see it, you can either plan on a Iroran Paladin 2 / Oracle+, Iroran paladin 4 / Oracle+, or just an oracle dip depending on what you want. Oradin would work fine here, as would the various dips to take advantage of CHA to AC and CMD/reflex saves

Paladin 4, in this case, gets your personal trial to +2, 2/day, and gets you +4 to ac, as well as getting you the ki pool. Ki pool isn't as amazing if you're not going to dip into sohei for flurry.

If you can get Bluff as a class skill, you can consider going

Scion of Humanity > Racial Heritage (Gnome) > Bewildering Koan, which is a fantastic way to use your ki points if you don't have flurry of blows.


The standby of "Lame" curse is not so amazing here, since you will be in light armor. "Tongues" is no good if you want to make use of Bewildering Koan.

Grand Lodge

Interesting.

I had hoped to have most of my levels in Paladin.

Also, I don't mind dumping intelligence, or wisdom.

What is a good array for 15 point buy?


For an Oracle dip, your best choices are between a Life Oracle (Oradin) and a Lore/Lunar/Nature mystery dip for the CHA to AC. The latter only works if your GM lets you apply CHA to AC twice (once from the Oracle, once from the Iroran Paladin).

I'm not a huge fan of the latter version myself; I think you're sacrificing too much for a build which already has very, very good defense. If you like it, though, more power to ya.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
What is a good array for 15 point buy?

My suggested array is in the first post; obviously just a suggestion.

Grand Lodge

Legalistic or Wrecker?


Legalistic is the clear winner from a power perspective, since it is effectively a non-curse if you don't make promises.

EDIT: An Iroran Paladin really shouldn't be breaking his word, anyway.


Oh, sorry. I labeled the array in the first post as 20 pt. but it's 15 pt. Fixed.


Another thought that occurred to me is, if your party needs a Knowledge guy, the dip into Lore oracle for all knowledges as class skills, plus the revelation that lets you use CHA for knowledge checks, plus the Deific Obedience (Irori) feat (+4 sacred bonus to ALL knowledge) checks, makes you very effective at knowledge checks.

A single rank in a knowledge check will get you 1+3trained+4CHA+4sacred = +12. More when your charisma goes up, and get mossy ioun stones later, and you may never need to invest more than one rank.

Grand Lodge

Is a reach weapon + unarmed a good way to go?

Maybe, just two-handed+power attack etc?

Grand Lodge

We actually have the Knowledge guy. Skald.


Hmm... it's tough. Yeah, if you're not going to get flurry, I would recommend a reach weapon, yes. Your unarmed strikes will not be that great until higher levels.

Power attack is never remiss, though if you're going to be primarily a paladin I do unsurprisingly recommend Fey Foundling as your 1st level feat.

Grand Lodge

Is Lunar, Nature, or Lore the best way to go?


Well, it comes down to: do you want to be a superior healer in addition to a combatant? If so, Life Oracle 2 / Paladin + for Oradin (And definitely get Fey Foundling in that case). Do you want to be a damage dealer? If so, I recommend Monk (Sohei) 1 / Paladin + instead of Oracle. Do you want to be a tank? If so, then pick an oracle dip with the AC boost, with the rest Paladin.


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Blackened is an interesting possibility since it sort of forces you into unarmed combat. (That -4 penalty to weapon attacks was apparently ruled not to apply to unarmed strikes, so effectively those would be your only effective attacks.)


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Is Lunar, Nature, or Lore the best way to go?

Well... there's a few things to consider.

First, your dex modifier to AC which will effectively be twice your charisma modifier (once from Paladin, once from Oracle). So, with 18 charisma, your dex bonus to ac is effectively +8. This will be capped by your armor's max dex, though, so you're going to end up wearing something really light. This is one of the reasons I'm not impressed by the CHA to AC twice.

The choice between the three mostly comes down to whether you want charisma to CMD or to reflex saves in addition to AC.


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

That double dip works best if most of your levels are as an Iroran paladin -- otherwise, you may find that your best AC option is the medium armor and shield combination available to the oracle. It also works well if you have some reason to take monk levels and not completely dump wisdom (something that I could see doing with some added D&D 3.5 material but not with pure Pathfinder rules).

Grand Lodge

I actually like the light armor idea.

As I am envisioning it, the PC would be as close to nude as possible.

Flavor reasons.

Maybe, UMD, and a Wand of Nereid's Grace?


David knott 242 wrote:
That double dip works best if most of your levels are as an Iroran paladin -- otherwise, you may find that your best AC option is the medium armor and shield combination available to the oracle. It also works well if you have some reason to take monk levels and not completely dump wisdom (something that I could see doing with some added D&D 3.5 material but not with pure Pathfinder rules).

With 15 point buy, there's no way to get a reasonable charisma, wisdom AND strength to make it worth while to go without armor.

The build that blackbloodtroll wants will probably end up using a haramaki, with no max dex bonus. Once you get to 20 charisma, your effective dex bonus is +10, and it's pointless to wear anything else.


Nereid's Grace will be an amazing combination if your GM allows you to "hide" your Haramaki. Which is not unreasonable, but it's up to the GM.

Otherwise, given the time limitations on the spell, I would just stick to the Haramaki myself.


Another point about the choice of mysteries. It's not 100% clear whether the charisma bonus from Iroran Paladin applies to CMD. I think that a strict RAW reading says "no", but I think a strong intent argument can be made that it is meant to enhance your dex bonus for the purposes of both AC and CMD.

If your GM does not allow it to apply to CMD, then CMD is a weak point which I recommend you shore up by choosing the Nature mystery.

If your GM does allow it to apply to CMD, then your CMD should be good enough, and I would take the Lore or Lunar mysteries to enhance your reflex saves. Probably Lunar, for the reason that it gives Perception as a class skill (if you're sure you don't want knowledge skills).


off the top of my head: dual-cursed (???/legalistic) lore/nature/lunar oracle 1 / iroran paladin 14?

any of the mysteries work nicely, it just depends on whether you want higher reflex or CMD. your saves should be respectable anyway, so i usually go for the CMD in that case.

lunar can also net you a full-progression animal companion if you spend the feats for extra revelation and boon companion (which isn't too painful since paladins are usually rather feat-light).

wolfscarred/lunar (with a wolf AC/later mount) might work nice thematically.

Grand Lodge

Well, you can get Permanency + Invisibility on an object.

5000gp.

Glamered Armor works too.


Perhaps later, but that's definitely not worth the expenditure for you at 4th level. Your AC will already be crazy good. And you won't be able to UMD reliably anyway. I would suggest holding off, myself.

AndIMustMask wrote:

off the top of my head: dual-cursed (???/legalistic) lore/nature/lunar oracle 1 / iroran paladin 14?

any of the mysteries work nicely, it just depends on whether you want higher reflex or CMD. your saves should be respectable anyway, so i usually go for the CMD in that case.

lunar can also net you a full-progression animal companion if you spend the feats for extra revelation and boon companion (which isn't too painful since paladins are usually rather feat-light).

wolfscarred/lunar (with a wolf AC/later mount) might work nice thematically.

How are you getting a "full-progression" animal companion? It's based on your oracle level; even with Boon Companion, it won't keep up, since that only boosts it by 4. You can't apply it more than once to the same animal, if that's what you were thinking.


whoops, you're right--i always thought it worked like nature soul+animal ally, but with a level penalty.

Grand Lodge

Let me see if I can come up with a rough sample build then.

Grand Lodge

What happens if you stop worshiping Irori?

I mean, the archetype doesn't even seem say that it is required.

Grand Lodge

Also, I can get UMD up to about +16 at 4th level.

If I so choose.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Also, I can get UMD up to about +16 at 4th level.

If I so choose.

How do you manage this? 4 ranks, 5 charisma. Are you making it a class skill with a trait? +2 competence from ioun stone.

Oh, and I said this in the other thread, but while the archetype does not explicitly say that you have to worship Irori, I believe that is only because the author thought it was obvious. RAW, you don't have to, but I wouldn't let a player play one without worshiping Irori. Your results will depend on your GM. If you can get away with worshiping Torag... good on you, I suppose.

Shadow Lodge

Nereid's Grace wands aren't as good as they seem, because they last for 1 round/charge with your standard wand.


Oh, duh! That didn't occur to me, but EvilPaladin is absolutely right. Do not want.

Grand Lodge

I missed that.

Darn.

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