Rules clarifications & questions concerning Shades of Ice II: Exiles of Winter


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Hello! I recently ran Shades of Ice II: Exiles of Winter and feel that, perhaps, our GM was a little unfair with a ruling. I'm relatively new to organized play, so I'm hoping to find some guidance here.

Spoiler:

The incident in question occurred at the end of the scenario, in the white dragon's room.

With the rest of the party waiting in the slaves-chained-up room, hesitant to step into the icy room beyond, our archivist decided to take a closer look at the runed door therein. He stepped into the first square of the room and, when nothing happened, stepped closer yet to the door. When he was ten feet away, the dragon swooped down and one-shot him (ice breath), bringing the archivist down to -10hp or so (whatever the numbers were, he was two rounds away from death). So far, so good.

Our witch, per witch/familiar mechanics, cast cure moderate wounds and designated her centipede as the deliverer. The centipede then stealthed up (a ~60 check, when all was said and done), went over to the archivist, and delivered the spell.

Now here's where it gets, as far as I know, shady. Upon the centipede's delivering the spell, the GM said the dragon noticed the delivery; the dragon then swooped down and grappled the centipede, bringing it back up with her into the frost clouds above.

Some players objected, saying the delivery of the spell should not have broken stealth, and I silently agreed. Our GM argued that any spell going off would be accompanied by a light, which, in this case, broke the centipede's stealth. (He also ceded that without that mechanic, the dragon didn't have high enough of a perception check to meet the centipede's stealth.)

Was our GM right in this? I can't find any rule, official or otherwise, that argues either way -- that the delivery of the touch spell would break the centipede's stealth, or that it wouldn't. Help, please?

And, if our GM was wrong, is there anything we can do now to retroactively fix our scenario, or its consequences? (The session took place this past Saturday, July 12.) If he wasn't wrong, I humbly apologize for wasting any readers' time (but would still like to know where to look for rules clarification!).

In the end, he let our witch bargain for the centipede's return (2000gp was the dragon's price), but I can't help but feel that she was, quite frankly, cheated out of 2000gp. (And that the group as a whole was cheated out of a fight, though I may have been the only one who wanted to continue at that point.)


Thanks for any response!

PS -- Our GM also gave us a copy of the scenario after the session.

Spoiler:

Curious, I flipped to the white dragon encounter and read under the "During Combat" portion that "The moment the PCs enter, Aralantryx shrieks in anger, swoops down, and blasts the PCs with her breath weapon." In our session, the dragon waited until our archivist was pretty far into the room -- more calculating than angry. Again, I'm new to organized play, so I won't presume to know; is this okay?

Silver Crusade 3/5

Please add spoiler tags to your post. There are a lot of spoilers in there.

Delivering a touch to an ally does not break invisibility, so I see no reason that it should break stealth.*

Shades of Ice, Part 2:

You are correct that the dragon should have attacked immediately when the archivist entered the room. This is not something that GMs should be changing.

* Edit: provided the centipede still had either cover or concealment from the dragon at the end of its turn. It is easy to argue that the centipede could have cover from the prone archivist. But if the archivist gets up, the centipede might be in trouble. Note, it doesn't need cover or concealment throughout its turn, only at both the beginning and the end. It should also make a new Stealth check at that point. (All of this is covered under the description for Stealth under Skills in the Core Rulebook.)

Edit 2.

Shades of Ice, Part 2:

Dragons have blindsense 60 ft. So if the centipede is within that distance, the dragon automatically knows precisely where it is.

Grand Lodge 1/5

semoene wrote:
...Encounter Happened....

G'day Semoene,

Firstly, my understanding from what you have said, is that there is nothing to retroactively fix (death, etc). In addition unless there is a serious miscarriage of justice, retcons are a very dangerous precedent and are usually not done, be it at the table or after. So for that I'll just give the standard answer of speak to the GM and your VL/VC.

Now onto your rules question. Looking at the stealth skill I've bolded the bits I think are relevant:

PRD wrote:

You are skilled at avoiding detection, allowing you to slip past foes or strike from an unseen position. This skill covers hiding and moving silently.

Check: Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had concealment. You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.

Creatures gain a bonus or penalty on Stealth checks based on their size: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Medium +0, Large -4, Huge -8, Gargantuan -12, Colossal -16.

If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.

Breaking Stealth: When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make and attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).

Sniping: If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.

Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Stealth check while people are aware of you.

Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

Special: If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Stealth checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Stealth checks if you're moving.

If you have the Stealthy feat, you get a bonus on Stealth checks (see Feats).

I'll assume for the moment that the centipede managed to get cover behind the witch or similar and was thus allowed to actually use the stealth skill - which gives us beginning the turn in cover.

That gets us to the breaking stealth section. So we accept the centipede started in cover/concealment and then had to go across open ground to get to the archivist, who unconscious on the ground would not have provided cover/concealment to the centipede (If I'm wrong about that, please correct me someone).
If that is the case then I would say since the centipede didn't finish its turn in cover/concealment it's stealth would have been broken at the end of the turn, irrespective of if it was delivering a spell or not.

So in short, my reading of RAW, would agree with the GM (though for different reasons)

Now since the first time I read your post I thought the centipede was invisible I'd like to keep going and talk about what the GM was talking about with the spell going off.

All the cure spells function as Cure light, so for the text:

PRD - Cure light Wounds wrote:

School: conjuration (healing);

Level: bard 1, cleric 1, druid 1, paladin 1, ranger 2
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Components: V, S
Range: touch
Target: creature touched
Duration: instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will half (harmless); see text; Spell Resistance: yes (harmless); see text

When laying your hand upon a living creature, you channel positive energy that cures 1d8 points of damage + 1 point per caster level (maximum +5). Since undead are powered by negative energy, this spell deals damage to them instead of curing their wounds. An undead creature can apply spell resistance, and can attempt a Will save to take half damage.

You channel positive energy, there is no description of this being a flash of light or anything, flavour wise, sure go for your life, if you want their to be purple flashing orbs around your hand when you cast it there are purple flashing orbs.

However since we are talking PFS here, then RAW does not list any visual spell effect. So IAW RAW there is no visual effect, just positive energy.

However for the purposes of the argument lets say there is some light (Flavour wise, I think there would be some light, but PFS RAW = no mechanical impact on the game, just how I would describe it if I was casting the spell)

If the centipede was invisible and delivering the spell and some light occured what would happen:

PRD - Invisibility wrote:

The creature or object touched becomes invisible. If the recipient is a creature carrying gear, that vanishes, too. If you cast the spell on someone else, neither you nor your allies can see the subject, unless you can normally see invisible things or you employ magic to do so.

Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible; items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature. Light, however, never becomes invisible, although a source of light can become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source). Any part of an item that the subject carries but that extends more than 10 feet from it becomes visible.

Of course, the subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable (such as swimming in water or stepping in a puddle). If a check is required, a stationary invisible creature has a +40 bonus on its Stealth checks. This bonus is reduced to +20 if the creature is moving. The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character's perceptions. Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear. Spells such as bless that specifically affect allies but not foes are not attacks for this purpose, even when they include foes in their area.

Invisibility can be made permanent (on objects only) with a permanency spell.

So the only thing that breaks invisibility IAW RAW is a direct attack or spell that targets a foe or includes a foe in its AoE.

Is the centipede delivering a cure spell to an ally a direct attack or spell including a foe? No

If there was light from the spell, IAW RAW the light would still occur, so you would see the flash, but the centipede wouldn't become visible, leading to a very confused dragon (or a dragon with a high miss chance)

So in summary:
Does a cure spell generate light IAW RAW? No
Would the centipede leaving cover to deliver a spell and ending its turn in the open break stealth? Yes.
Would the dragon have been able to see the centipede and grab it? Yes

Hope that answered some questions.

Edit: Ninjaed by the Fox and to remove spoilers from quote

Webstore Gninja Minion

Added a spoiler tag to the first post!

Grand Lodge 5/5 ****

Jatan Ignis wrote:


Is the centipede delivering a cure spell to an ally a direct attack or spell including a foe? No

I once had a GM who regarded anything that allows a saving throw as a potential attack spell. Actually cure can be used as an attack against undead.

I'm not saying this is right or that I would rule this way - but I thought I add it here that cure can be an attack spell and that makes RAW murky as this moves from the question if the spell breaks invisibility (and against undead it does) to can there be circumstances by RAW that the same spell breaks or doesnt break invisibility.

Anyhow - I think the issue was rather stealth.

Just interested - how does a centipede reach 60 stealth? Just looked up the house centipede stats and it starts at +19. Assume a nat 20 on a roll and we still miss some 20 odd ? And the scenario is only level 1-5 as far as I recall.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Thod wrote:
Just interested - how does a centipede reach 60 stealth? Just looked up the house centipede stats and it starts at +19. Assume a nat 20 on a roll and we still miss some 20 odd ? And the scenario is only level 1-5 as far as I recall.

Invisibility spell probably, +20 to stealth when moving

4/5

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To further muddy the waters, I'm not sure the creature could move, grapple, and then move with the familiar back into the cloud.

Even with Flyby Attack, you only get a move and a standard. Once the creature uses its standard to grapple the familiar, it gains the grappled condition and can't move. On a subsequent turn, it could make a grapple check to continue the grapple and then move "as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple".

So unless that all happened over the course of two turns, it probably shouldn't have gone down that way.

Dark Archive 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber
redward wrote:

To further muddy the waters, I'm not sure the creature could move, grapple, and then move with the familiar back into the cloud.

Even with Flyby Attack, you only get a move and a standard. Once the creature uses its standard to grapple the familiar, it gains the grappled condition and can't move. On a subsequent turn, it could make a grapple check to continue the grapple and then move "as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple".

So unless that all happened over the course of two turns, it probably shouldn't have gone down that way.

If there's grab (haven't checked teh block), it could take the -20....

Shadow Lodge

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Mistwalker wrote:
Thod wrote:
Just interested - how does a centipede reach 60 stealth? Just looked up the house centipede stats and it starts at +19. Assume a nat 20 on a roll and we still miss some 20 odd ? And the scenario is only level 1-5 as far as I recall.
Invisibility spell probably, +20 to stealth when moving

And also provides total concealment, allowing you to stealth in combat freely (unless they can "see" you anyways, such as via true seeing or see invisibility, or using something like blindsight, none of which are involved here).

Potential breakdown of the centipede's stealth bonus: 3 ranks, +3 class skill, +8 size, +8 racial, +20 invisible; results in a +42, which means a centipede with invisibility could potentially reach a 60 on a natural 18, as of level three. Also, seeing as the base creature has neither skill points nor class skills, I'm not sure how they got that +19; size and racial only come to +16, and I can't figure out where the extra +3 comes from, but if we add it to the familiar's bonus, we're down to only needing a fifteen or above on the d20.

If the centipede did have invisibility cast on it, then it certainly maintained the concealment necessary to maintain stealth, meaning the enemy couldn't possibly have spotted it, considering it's Perception bonus.

And while there may not be a death to correct, 2,000gp is a considerable amount of money at this level; considering that, based upon what I've seen here, this is an expense that was only incurred because the GM essentially invented a rule about the delivery of a spell that's already been cast, so I'm of the opinion that this is something that should be fixed, as this one (possibly, depending on whether invisibility was cast) incorrect ruling cost the witch more than the scenario gives out.

4/5

TetsujinOni wrote:
redward wrote:

To further muddy the waters, I'm not sure the creature could move, grapple, and then move with the familiar back into the cloud.

Even with Flyby Attack, you only get a move and a standard. Once the creature uses its standard to grapple the familiar, it gains the grappled condition and can't move. On a subsequent turn, it could make a grapple check to continue the grapple and then move "as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple".

So unless that all happened over the course of two turns, it probably shouldn't have gone down that way.

If there's grab (haven't checked teh block), it could take the -20....

No Grab, just a +11 CMB (which against the Centipede's CMD of 8 is plenty).

Silver Crusade 4/5

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Centipede should take level of Tetori and turn tables on dumdum dragon.

Dark Archive 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber
redward wrote:
TetsujinOni wrote:
redward wrote:

To further muddy the waters, I'm not sure the creature could move, grapple, and then move with the familiar back into the cloud.

Even with Flyby Attack, you only get a move and a standard. Once the creature uses its standard to grapple the familiar, it gains the grappled condition and can't move. On a subsequent turn, it could make a grapple check to continue the grapple and then move "as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple".

So unless that all happened over the course of two turns, it probably shouldn't have gone down that way.

If there's grab (haven't checked teh block), it could take the -20....
No Grab, just a +11 CMB (which against the Centipede's CMD of 8 is plenty).

without grab, once you initiate a grapple successfully, both the grapple-controller and the grapple target have the Grappled condition and cannot move without making a grapple check, irrespective of things like a full attack of natural attacks, etc. The dragon could grapple & drop but couldn't continue flyby attack without doign so....

Right Rogue Eidolon?

Dark Archive 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Agent, Australia—QLD—Brisbane

So, a dragon (even a small one) cannot fly away with a centipede (normal, not giant)? Ridiculous, regardless of what RAW says. Clearly, birds grabbing their dinner in the real world don't go by those rules...

Now, if the thing being grappled was closer to the relative size of the grabber, sure, I can see this being more realistic.

Sovereign Court 5/5 Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

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Liz Courts wrote:
Added a spoiler tag to the first post!

It still needs another one, please. And others do, too. So many posts talking about the creature in the encounter. Gah! Maybe move it to the GM section and change the title?

Silver Crusade 4/5

YogoZuno wrote:

So, a dragon (even a small one) cannot fly away with a centipede (normal, not giant)? Ridiculous, regardless of what RAW says. Clearly, birds grabbing their dinner in the real world don't go by those rules...

Sure they can do it. It just takes two rounds in game terms - one to swoop down and grab the prey, then maintain the grapple fly away the following round.

Grand Lodge 5/5 ****

SCPRedMage wrote:

snip ...

I can't figure out where the extra +3 comes from, but if we add it to the familiar's bonus, we're down to only needing a fifteen or above on the d20.
.

The +3 is from Dex 17 that the centipede has. I might have misinterpreted some later post and didn't take invisibility for granted. That one is possible with a witch of deception and in this case would be really harsh if someone invest a lot to deliver touch spells safely to be denied the built.

But this is speculation - that's why I was interested how it actually got to these values.

Silver Crusade 3/5

Again, invisibility helps only a little bit. The [redacted] has blindsense 60 ft. If the centipede is within 60 ft. of the [redacted], its location is immediately known. The centipede does benefit from a 50% miss chance to avoid being grappled, however.

PRD wrote:
Blindsense (Ex) Using nonvisual senses, such as acute smell or hearing, a creature with blindsense notices things it cannot see. The creature usually does not need to make Perception checks to pinpoint the location of a creature within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent the creature cannot see still has total concealment against the creature with blindsense, and the creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.

Shadow Lodge

Thod wrote:
The +3 is from Dex 17 that the centipede has.

Derp, of course I end up forgetting the ability modifier... >.>


If thebcentipede did not have invisibility the moment it finished its turn (delivered the touch spell unless it had somebwsy to run in touch and leave) the centipede is now visible.

The room in question (unless memory has failed) has no where on the ground to hide. The prone body of a pc is not a suitable place for cover.

That said the above only applies if stealth is all that is uses. If it is invisibility it enters touches remains invisible and the dragon needs a perception check.

Edit if the dragon had blindsense though.. it basically knows exactly where the centipede is even if it can't see it.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

YogoZuno wrote:

So, a dragon (even a small one) cannot fly away with a centipede (normal, not giant)? Ridiculous, regardless of what RAW says. Clearly, birds grabbing their dinner in the real world don't go by those rules...

Now, if the thing being grappled was closer to the relative size of the grabber, sure, I can see this being more realistic.

One of the actions you can take while maintaining a grapple, is to move half your speed.

PRD; Grapple wrote:
Move: You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.

But unless you have the Snatch special ability, you cannot fly away with a critter you've grabbed on the same round you grabbed them.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Mojorat wrote:
If thebcentipede did not have invisibility the moment it finished its turn (delivered the touch spell unless it had somebwsy to run in touch and leave) the centipede is now visible.

The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character's perceptions.

The centipede was not targeting a foe. They were targeting a friend. (or a friend of a friend) So invisibility doesn't break.

The fox: invisibility doesn't help if you if you're already in a grapple. The miss chances still applies to establish the grapple.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

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I'm not so much concerned about the rules of perception vs. stealth, or grapple vs. moving, as those can easily be mistaken and ultimately don't make a huge difference with this situation.

What I'm more concerned about is the GM arbitrarily negotiating the release of the familiar(spellbook) for 2,000gp. That is clearly not in the scenario.

Silver Crusade 1/5

In the write up for the room it states that there are billowing icy clouds in the room. granting at least partial concealment. The centipede
was invisible [total concealment] and delivered a touch spell. This does not break invisibility. IMO according to RAW your GM screwed up.

Sometimes GM's don't like to see the BBG not be able to do things that they [GM's] want them to do. I think this was the case with you GM.

The player came up with an inventive use of his spells and familiar to save another PC the GM should have applauded this and had the BBG go after other members of the party.

Silver Crusade 3/5

Lou Diamond wrote:

In the write up for the room it states that there are billowing icy clouds in the room. granting at least partial concealment. The centipede

was invisible [total concealment] and delivered a touch spell. This does not break invisibility. IMO according to RAW your GM screwed up.

Dragon's have blindsense 60 ft.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Mojorat wrote:
If thebcentipede did not have invisibility the moment it finished its turn (delivered the touch spell unless it had somebwsy to run in touch and leave) the centipede is now visible.

The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character's perceptions.

The centipede was not targeting a foe. They were targeting a friend. (or a friend of a friend) So invisibility doesn't break.

The fox: invisibility doesn't help if you if you're already in a grapple. The miss chances still applies to establish the grapple.

Err the parr you quoted started with "if the centipede did not have invisibility" admittedly I mangled it a bit.

The rules are different for a simple stealth. If the centipede simply stealthed to the pc and touched it the centipede's turn is over and it is now visible as it has nonway to get cover.

If it was invisible. I agree it remains so and is simply observed via blind sense.

Webstore Gninja Minion

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Drogon wrote:
Liz Courts wrote:
Added a spoiler tag to the first post!
It still needs another one, please. And others do, too. So many posts talking about the creature in the encounter. Gah! Maybe move it to the GM section and change the title?

D'oh. Missed that (and moved thread).

4/5

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Spoiler:
He should have attacked the archivist sooner though I can understand why a GM may delay since it's suppose to attack when the PCs (plural) enter. So I can see why he would hesitate. So nothing wrong there.

The dragon has blindsense, so the stealth skill of the centipede is irrelevant as the dragon would auto succeed at the perception check. If it was invisible it would have a total concealment (50% miss chance.)

Not sure on the round by round timing of this, so can't really break down if a mistake was made on the grapple and move.

Probably should have had the dragon kill the centipede, but 2000 gold seems the nicer option (assuming the witch was 3 - 4 level.)

Andrew Christian wrote:
What I'm more concerned about is the GM arbitrarily negotiating the release of the familiar(spellbook) for 2,000gp. That is clearly not in the scenario.

I agree. Killing the familiar would have been the simpler option, though the ransom probably saved the witch some money.

Shadow Lodge 3/5

The big thing in question here is, does the delivery of a touch spell break stealth. The rest is the GM trying to accommodate the tactics in a situation where what was listed in the tactics didn't come up:

- only one PC entered the room: it's also easy for "the PCs" to be read as "a PC" if that's what happens; we don't know if that's what the author/development intended and written tactics are never that specific.
- a witch was crazy enough to send her spellbook in to deliver a touch spell: an extremely risky move
- the GM gave the player a mercy option: debatably an expensive one

Rules as written tactics should be followed to the best of the GMs ability rather than the strict letter, because GMs always make mistakes. Some retconning can be considered, though the first two points don't warrant it.

The last point; 2000gp, is huge for a 1-5 scenario. In scenarios, bribes often need to be less than you think. You might think you need to offer 100-500gp, where an NPC might be happy with 10-50gp, thinking that's a very solid amount but you rarely lend a favour for so little gold. 1-2 offers about 500gp and 4-5 offers about 1800gp. This is a dragon, granted, but a good precedent might be CR x 100 for a surrender option, at a maximum. 2000gp is enormous, and that's definitely worth a retcon.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

The delivery of a touch spell on an enemy would break stealth/invisibility. But delivering a touch spell to an ally does not.

Silver Crusade 3/5

Avatar-1 wrote:
The big thing in question here is, does the delivery of a touch spell break stealth.

That question is irrelevant. The opponent has blindsense.

5/5

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I'm the GM in question, so let me explain my reasoning as it went.

Spoiler:
1) Yes, there are billowing clouds of ice crystals. White dragons have Snow Vision, which means that they don't suffer Perception penalties in snow, which is a cloud of ice crystals. No one in that room has any concealment from the dragon because of atmospheric visibility conditions, though the dragon has concealment from the party if it's up in the clouds.

2) I was in a bit of a difficult position. The party was poorly constructed, with a Bard2, Bard4, Alchemist4, Witch4, Zen Archer4. All of the level 4 characters are played by a group that wants to play together. Before we began I recommended that someone play one of the melee based pregens so that the party was better balanced, particularly after the same party (minus the Bard2) had a horrible time getting through Shades of Ice Part I without any melee capability. The players declined my suggestion. This party makeup affected a number of decisions I made along the way.

3) With the disappearance of faction missions I really don't like the way that the end of this scenario is constructed. As far as the PCs can tell, they have everything they need to have accomplished a complete success in the mission without ever opening the door into the refrigerator the dragon is trapped in. The party came very close to deciding not to open that door and I was really hoping that they would choose that option, because they were poorly built to deal with her. But I didn't feel at all comfortable saying anything since the second prestige point is tied to killing the dragon. In my opinion, that's dumb but that's what it is.

4) In the end, the Bard2 opened the door and went in by himself with the rest of the party scattered around the previous room and not positioned to support him at all. The dragon came down and dropped him to -10 hit points in one round. The zen archer did a bit of damage to her and then she flew back up so that no one outside that room could see her or attack her.

5) At that point, the rest of the party stayed outside the room. The only thing that happened was that the witch cast Cure Moderate Wounds and sent her centipede into the refrigerator to deliver it. She made the Stealth check described but there was no invisibility involved. As an aside, I find this application of the Stealth rules to be idiotic; yes, the centipede started outside the room and thus had cover. However, the dragon was watching the door from above. That anyone can use Stealth to walk across an observed floor just because they started their turn outside the room is stupid. Stupid, stupid, stupid. That's an aside, though, because I let the Stealth work despite my loathing for that rule.

6) When the centipede discharged the spell, I ruled that it broke stealth. It has always been my understanding that spells have visible manifestations. Now that I'm looking for it in the rules I see that it doesn't actually describe the general effects of spells one way or the other. So I may have been operating under assumptions from a game system (Champions) that makes it clear that all powers have noticeable manifestations unless otherwise specified. I may have erred on this, though it would be a lot better if the rules would explain what happens when a spell is cast or discharged. At a minimum, all of the artwork in the books indicate that held touch spells have visible manifestations.

7) However, as is pointed out, #6 probably doesn't matter since the Stealth would have been broken once the centipede's turn was over. Relating back to #5, a lot of players I deal drastically overestimate how much hiding they can do with Stealth and I think this was a case of that. If you're out on a bare floor, you can't hide. And even if I had allowed the centipede to hide under the bard on the ground, that would have been a move action and the centipede didn't have any left.

8) Okay, here is where I broke the rules and the tactics as written, but understand that I was doing to help the party, not hurt them. If Paizo wants to claim that I failed by not running as written, let them. However, I really believe that the consequences of my not doing so worked out to the party's benefit relative to what might have happened. Yes, I had the dragon swoop down, grab the centipede and fly back up. The rules breakage happened because I lost track of which combat maneuvers can be done in place of a melee attack, and thus done in the middle of a Fly-By Attack and which can't.

In the end, I don't think it would have mattered. Had the dragon come down, grabbed the centipede and waited to fly up on its next turn it would have done so successfully. The alternatives for it were to fly down and attack the bard, which likely would have put him back down and led to a PC death, or to attack the centipede which had a pretty good chance of killing it outright, or to land by the door and breathe on the three party members crowded right there and possibly drop some of them.

I really didn't want to do any of the above because, as I said, the party composition was horrible for trying to beat the scenario and I can understand not wanting to play a pregen. So I tried to go easy on them.

9) 2,000gp was not the dragon's price. All the dragon did was ask how much the witch would pay to get her familiar back. It was the player whose first offer was 2,000gp. I had been prepared to start the bidding at 800gp and get bargained down to a fraction of that. So, the way I see it, the dragon cheated the witch out of about 500gp and the witch cheated herself out of the rest.

10) The party didn't get cheated out of a fight. Nothing would have prevented them from fighting the dragon either before or after they rescued the centipede. They discussed doing so and chose not to. That said, it would have been a tough fight for them and had I just run the dragon as written, it's pretty much a guarantee that the Bard2 would have needed a Raise Dead when it was over and he may not have been alone.

Silver Crusade 3/5

J Michael Neal wrote:

I'm the GM in question, so let me explain my reasoning as it went.

** spoiler omitted **...

I think you did fine.

Some points worth discussing:
1. The whole argument over stealth is irrelevant. Dragons have blindsense. She would have known precisely where the centipede was.
2. It doesn't matter if the dragon has Flyby Attack. You cannot move while grappled unless you make a grapple check (which is a standard action). This is the only mistake that I see here. (The ruling that casting a spell ends stealth, or that you need to spend a move action to gain the benefit of stealth at the end of your turn are also both incorrect; but given that dragons have blindsense, both of those points are irrelevant.)
3. I had somehow thought that it might have been the player to offer 2,000 gp for the return of the familiar. I think you did the right thing by accepting the offer. You could have been nice and told the player to offer 500 gp, but I don't think you needed to. It is sometimes hard to adjudicate the unexpected like this.

5/5

semoene wrote:

Hello! I recently ran Shades of Ice II: Exiles of Winter and feel that, perhaps, our GM was a little unfair with a ruling. I'm relatively new to organized play, so I'm hoping to find some guidance here.

Spoiler:
Curious, I flipped to the white dragon encounter and read under the "During Combat" portion that "The moment the PCs enter, Aralantryx shrieks in anger, swoops down, and blasts the PCs with her breath weapon." In our session, the dragon waited until our archivist was pretty far into the room -- more calculating than angry. Again, I'm new to organized play, so I won't presume to know; is this okay?

Spoiler:
I missed this part of the original post. The reason the dragon waited until the archivist was pretty far into the room was because he moved all the way in without stopping. The dragon is perched at the ceiling of the room. She doesn't teleport directly in front of someone walking into the room the instant he steps in; these things take time.

And put me on the list that has no idea how the centipede got a Stealth check that high. I let it slide at the time because I didn't think it mattered given what happened and there was so much going on at the time that I didn't want to stop everything and ask. But there was no invisibility so I don't know how it is possible for it to get higher than a 39.

5/5 5/55/55/5

It doesn't matter what the stealth bonus on the centipede is. Blindsense roflcopters stealth.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

2 people marked this as a favorite.

And there we have it.

My concerns are allayed.

Sure some of the rules were slightly off, but the end result was a GM trying to be merciful rather than hard core or vindictive.

Only thing I'd caution, unless these are brand new players, allowing the scenario to claim its victims can actually do far more to teach them to be better prepared rather than bending the rules to help them live.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville

Centipede would get a bonus to stealth because of size. (+8?)

5/5

thaX wrote:
Centipede would get a bonus to stealth because of size. (+8?)

That's already factored into its +19 bonus, which is: +3 from Dex; +8 for being Tiny; and +8 racial bonus.

1/5

J Michael Neal wrote:
6) When the centipede discharged the spell, I ruled that it broke stealth. It has always been my understanding that spells have visible manifestations. Now that I'm looking for it in the rules I see that it doesn't actually describe the general effects of spells one way or the other. So I may have been operating under assumptions from a game system (Champions) that makes it clear that all powers have noticeable manifestations unless otherwise specified. I may have erred on this, though it would be a lot better if the rules would explain what happens when a spell is cast or discharged. At a minimum, all of the artwork in the books indicate that held touch spells have visible manifestations.

I don't have any comment on how you ran the scenario, I'll leave that to others. However, this part of your approach raises an interesting question and I think everyone might benefit from a discussion of.

Awhile back, I posed a question about the use of magic in social settings. Part of my question involved the visibility of spell casting. This is an important question for Pathfinder and I don't know that I've seen a definitive answer. If someone has one, I'd appreciate a link.

Based on how the game is played and how the rules are written, it is my interpretation that anytime a spell is cast any and all possible combatants are aware that magic is being used. This includes SLA's. This belief is based on connecting some dots:

1. If the spell has a Verbal component, the rules state:

PRD wrote:
Verbal (V): A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice

2. None of the Feats that remove spell component requirements give any indication that if you can cast without using a spell component, the spell is undetectable or Spellcraft does not work.

3. The combat rules do not have provisions for withholding that spells are cast.

4. However, this applies to the casting of spells, not the discharge of spells. The centipede did not cast the spell. Should discharging a spell have the same effect? I don't know, but I would say no unless you're going to argue that someone who drinks a potion is at the center of the same effect as someone who had cast the spell.

Despite my belief of the above, the rules do not universally reinforce this conclusion. For example, neither the Perception or Stealth skill descriptions explicitly talk about spell casting. In addition, there are other problems the arise if using magic is automatically known by all in proximity. The chief being social situations. A not uncommon occurrence is someone casts Charm Person on one of two guards before init is rolled. Is the other guard really clueless that someone just cast a spell?

As I stated above, if there is a FAQ or ruling about casting spells and the obviousness of such, I would appreciate someone providing a link. In the absence of such, I operate with the belief that any time a spell is cast, people know magic was used and if they have line of sight, they know who used it. But that's only with regards to the casting. And this obviously ignores any specific visual aspects like Somatic gestures or visible effects from the spell itself. i.e. everyone knows who cast the Magic Missile spell. I think of it as anytime someone disturbs the Weave, it's perceivable.

Grand Lodge 5/5 ****

thaX wrote:
Centipede would get a bonus to stealth because of size. (+8?)

This is why I asked the player how he got into the range of 60

As far as I can tell what is possible and what I learned here so far:

19 base stealth for centipede (+3 dex, +8 size, +8 racial)

ranks and skill max +7 (Stealth counts as class skill and if the witch takes ranks, then all ranks apply to the centipede = level 4 = 4 ranks + 3 class)

dice roll - 20 max (it seems it was <20 as no nat 20 was mentioned but 20 is technical possible)

That leaves up to 47 max

Have modifications been applied twice as you seem to imply that it should also get a size bonus (already in the 19)?
Have any modifiers been applied because if was fog? Actually they wouldn't count due to special abilities of the enemy and should be applied by the GM
Magic items (not sure what a centipede would be allowed to wear)? There was no invisibility according to the GM - which makes sense as only one Archetype of witch has invisibility on it's list of special spells

The reason I try to get this correct is to ensure that the player doesn't has another future disappointment when it 'doesn't' work

Silver Crusade 3/5

Dex +4 (base Dexterity for a house centipede is 19)
size +8
racial +8
------------------
Subtotal +20

more Dex +1 (at 4 HD, put 1 point into Dexterity)
ranks +4
trained +3
Skill Focus +3
Stealthy +2
------------------
Total +33

If the witch had cast reduce person on the centipede, the size bonus would be +12 and the Dex bonus would be +6, for a revised total of +38.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
The Fox wrote:

Dex +4 (base Dexterity for a house centipede is 19)

size +8
racial +8
------------------
Subtotal +20

more Dex +1 (at 4 HD, put 1 point into Dexterity)
ranks +4
trained +3
Skill Focus +3
Stealthy +2
------------------
Total +33

If the witch had cast reduce person on the centipede, the size bonus would be +12 and the Dex bonus would be +6, for a revised total of +38.

That's not how familiars work. They don't gain Hit dice, just what the familiar progression table gives them. They have no way of getting skill focus or stealthy and no extra stat since they never actually gain that 4th HD.

Silver Crusade 3/5

Yes. You are right. Wasn't it clarified somewhere that familiars can swap out their feat for another? (Edit: found it in Animal Archive.)

That would reduce the total to around +27 or +30, still not too shabby. (This is assuming the witch has 4 ranks in Stealth). And with reduce person it would be +32 or +35.

Grand Lodge 5/5 ****

The Fox wrote:

Dex +4 (base Dexterity for a house centipede is 19)

size +8
racial +8
------------------
Subtotal +20

more Dex +1 (at 4 HD, put 1 point into Dexterity)
ranks +4
trained +3
Skill Focus +3
Stealthy +2
------------------
Total +33

If the witch had cast reduce person on the centipede, the size bonus would be +12 and the Dex bonus would be +6, for a revised total of +38.

Where is the data from / how does the familiar gets feats?

Ultimate Magic p.119 wrote:


Str. 1, Dex 17, Con 10, Int -- , Wis 10, Cha 2
CRB p83 wrote:


Only a normal unmodified animal may become a familiar.
..
snip
Skills: For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master's skill ranks whichever is better. In either case the familiar uses it's own ability modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar's ability to use. Familiars treat Acrobatics, climb, Fly, Perception, Stealth, and swim as class skills.

Are feats etc. from the Animal companion book with alternate rules or are rules for druid companions being applied here?

Silver Crusade 3/5

You can swap out Weapon Finesse for Skill Focus. Tiny familiars don't need Weapon Finesse because they already use Dex for their attack modifiers.

I was using the stats for a house centipede from the Bestiary. I did not know they had stats in Ultimate Magic.

Edit: ok, I found the house centipede in the PRD version of Ultimate Magic. You are right, those stats are different than what is presented in the Bestiary (which is what one must use if they don't own Ultimate Magic, and what would have been used when the witch was first released in the APG).

Grand Lodge 5/5 ****

The Fox wrote:

Yes. You are right. Wasn't it clarified somewhere that familiars can swap out their feat for another? (Edit: found it in Animal Archive.)

No feats to swap on page 18/19 of animal archive that help for stealth.

Mike Brock for PFS clarification

Silver Crusade 3/5

Thod wrote:
The Fox wrote:

Yes. You are right. Wasn't it clarified somewhere that familiars can swap out their feat for another? (Edit: found it in Animal Archive.)

No feats to swap on page 18/19 of animal archive that help for stealth.

Mike Brock for PFS clarification

Fair enough.

Even better, take Extra Item Slot (shoulders) and buy a cloak of elvenkind for a +5 competence bonus.

Now we have

Dex +3 or +4 (depending on your source)
size +8
racial +8
ranks +4
trained +3
competence +5
----------------
Total +31 or +32

Cast reduce person for +36.

4/5

The Fox wrote:
Thod wrote:
The Fox wrote:

Yes. You are right. Wasn't it clarified somewhere that familiars can swap out their feat for another? (Edit: found it in Animal Archive.)

No feats to swap on page 18/19 of animal archive that help for stealth.

Mike Brock for PFS clarification

Fair enough.

Even better, take Extra Item Slot (shoulders) and buy a cloak of elvenkind for a +5 competence bonus.

Now we have

Dex +3 or +4 (depending on your source)
size +8
racial +8
ranks +4
trained +3
competence +5
----------------
Total +31 or +32

Cast reduce person for +36.

Centipede's can't wear cloaks. Belt and eyes only.

Grand Lodge 5/5 ****

ninjaed - took me longer to find what slots are allowed for a centipede - Animal companion - Inside of the front cover, bottom

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