I don't like the "supernatural" hell knights PRC.
Im working up an order for hell knights for cavalier, an archetype for fighters, an inquisition for inquisitors, an archetype for magus and a domain for clerics.
So basically Hellknight Order, Hellknight fighter arch, Signifier Inquisition, Hellknight magus and Hellknight Cleric Domain (maybe a sub domain of law)
Any thoughts, additions, comments?
For the cavalier, the hellnight challenge could work as a smite chaos (with Charisma bonus to attack and AC and bypassing DR) against chaotic opponents.
Do you want help making these? Because I'd be glad to write one or two. Your goal is to avoid supernatural elements completely unless it is on a signifier, right?
For the Fighter Archetype, the Hellknight will probably want some of those juicy save bonuses the normal Hellknight gets. Maybe have some replace Armor trainings 3 and up, along with Bravery and a random bonus feat or two? A weapon training could be replaced with Onslaught.
The Inquisitor Inquisition must include the signifier's mask abilities. Its the thing thats supposed to define them.
Also, is the Cleric domain making the assumption that they will take the Signifier prestige class? If not, it needs a mask too. Same with the Magus, unless the magus is being a normal Hellknight instead of a signifier.
I think the magus archetype is easy enough. I would do decreased spellcasting and give the class the ability to cast in heavy (like hellknight) armor from level 1. Let your arcane pool enchant both your armor and your armor and your weapon by +1 (though every +1 spent after that first one must be added to EITHER the armor or the sword).
Then you kick on other new thematically appropriate abilities in place of medium armor casting and heavy armor casting. Maybe give them lagged devil summoning options? I wish I knew more about Hellknight lore. I just know that they look rad.
I think the magus archetype is easy enough. I would do decreased spellcasting and give the class the ability to cast in heavy (like hellknight) armor from level 1. Let your arcane pool enchant both your armor and your armor and your weapon by +1 (though every +1 spent after that first one must be added to EITHER the armor or the sword).
Then you kick on other new thematically appropriate abilities in place of medium armor casting and heavy armor casting. Maybe give them lagged devil summoning options? I wish I knew more about Hellknight lore. I just know that they look rad.
I'd give medium armor at level 1. Heavy at level 5. That way, it feels more like they "graduated" to Hellknight Plate. After all, a Hellknight is not allowed to wear the armor til they graduate from the Armiger rank. To do this, they must defeat a devil of greater HD than themselves in the presence of another Hellknight. Though to be fair, most heavy armor is not going to be worn at 1st level anyway.
Thread necromancy time!
This awesome campaign journal (really, check it out!) shows the need for a Hellknight Magus archetype (as well as some of the other stuff posted above). While I don't share the Original Poster's dislike of the Hellknight prestige classes (despite some design problems), these prestige classes still have the problem that they are just bad options for 4/9 and 6/9 level casting classes. This is because they stop progression of spells and class features (Hellknight, labeled as Hell Knight Commander on d20pfsrd.com) or replace all progression of class features other than spells with their own class features that proceed at the same rate that they would for a 9/9 spellcaster, without offering any compensation for progressing their worse spellcasting at only their native rate (Hellknight Signifer, labeled as Hell Knight Enforcer on d20pfsrd.com). This is especially egregious for a Magus, who is required to blow a feat on Arcane Armor Training (which is pretty much a trap feat for a Magus) or dip in Cleric or Oracle (and this dip is itself generally bad for a Magus) to get Warrior Priest (which, as an aside, isn't available to Inquisitors or Warpriests, so they're just left out). So, let's fire this thread back up.
I like the idea above that a Hellknight Magus would get earlier access to Medium Armor (level 1) and Heavy Armor (level 7, not 5, to make it be at the level at which a normal Magus can upgrade from Light Armor to Medium Armor, and upgrade the Fighter Training class feature. Weapon and Armor Proficiency would also be altered to guarantee proficiency in the Hellknight Order's favored weapon(s); for a favored weapon that is Simple or Martial (the Magus would be proficient with it anyway), give free Weapon Focus with it at 1st level. I also like the idea posted above to allow using Arcane Points to enchant armor, although separate Arcane Points (not necessarily separate actions) should be spent for armor and weapon enchantments. The obvious thing to trade out for this is Spell Combat (but Spellstrike works as normal), and probably Diminished Spellcasting would also be required for balance (but add Summon Monster spells to the spell list, for summoning Lawful/Axiomatic creatures(*); also eventually add Smite Entropy(*), which would work like Smite Abomination, but directed against Chaotic creatures). Later, trade out Improved Spell Combat for the ability to spend Arcane Points to Quicken spells of range Personal (for better self-buffing, which the campaign journal linked above accidentally demonstrated isn't such a great option for a normal Magus), and later yet, trade out Greater Spell Combat to make this process more efficient and allow it to be performed in the same Swift Action as weapon and armor buffing. Hellknight Disciplines would be available as Magus Arcana, starting at 9th level(*); some overlap in function exists in that some of these are Summons, but the Summons among these would be more powerful (Summon Devil) or longer lasting (Tracker) but more narrowly focused than summons obtained from casting normal Summon Monster spells.
(*)Activating these abilities would require meeting the prerequisites of the Hellknight prestige class, with the exception of the Armor requirement.
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Hellmagus
1- Arcane Pool (Weapons or Armor), Cantrips, Armor Training I
2- Spellstrike
3- Magus Arcana
4- Spell Recall
5- Bonus Feat
6- Magus Arcana
7- Knowledge Pool, Armor Training II
8- Arcane Fervor (Quicken Personal Spell)
9- Magus Arcana
10- Fighter Training
11- Bonus Feat
12- Magus Arcana
13- Armor Training III
14- Improved Arcane Fervor (Dual Weapon and Armor Enchant)
15- Magus Arcana
16- Counterstrike
17- Bonus Feat
18- Magus Arcana
19- Armor Training IV
20- Armor Mastery
^Oh yeah, I forgot about Armor Training (and maybe Weapon Training? -- although Myrmidarch has that covered, if you make the archetypes stackable) and Armor Mastery. Also, some part of Armor training should include the Hellknight's ability to make increasingly improved use specifically of Hellknight Plate.
Another consideration is to make the Hellknight Magus archetype stackable with (maybe even requiring) the Skirnir archetype (most Hellknight Orders) and an as-yet unavailable two-handed weapon specialist archetype (Castigator?) (Order of the Coil, Order of the Nail, and Order of the Pike). In this case, the Hellknight Magus archetype would not apply diminished spellcasting, because either archetype that it depends upon would already diminish the spellcasting.
I did some reading up on Bloodragers, including this guide, and came up with this Hellknight Bloodrager archetype:
Hellknight Bloodrager
Archetype dependency: A Hellknight Bloodrager must also apply the Steelblood archetype.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Hellknight Bloodrager adds proficiency with the Hellknight Order's favored weapons. For a weapon with which a standard Bloodrager would already be proficient (a simple or martial weapon), the Hellknight Bloodrager instead receives Weapon Focus as a bonus feat. This further alters the Steelblood Bloodrager's weapon and armor proficiency.
Code of Conduct: A Hellknight Bloodrager must be of Lawful alignment and obey all dictates of the relevant Hellknight Order. Engaging in Chaotic acts or otherwise violating the Hellknight Order's dictates or Code of Conduct results in loss of Controlled Bloodrage (but not normal Bloodrage) and Hellknight Bloodrager Bonus Spells, and prevents further advancement in Hellknight Bloodrager levels, until the offending Hellknight Bloodrager atones for the unlawful behavior.
Controlled Bloodrage: A Hellknight Bloodrager can enter a Controlled Bloodrage, which applies the changes of Urban Barbarian's Controlled Rage to Bloodrage. This alters Bloodrage.
Hellknight Bloodrager Bonus Spells -- these replace all of the Bloodline Spells:
1st level (added at 7th level): Protection from Chaos;
2nd level (added at 10th level): Aura of Menace, which would work like Archon's Aura, except that it only gains the [Lawful] descriptor and not the [Good] descriptor; normally, this would be a 3rd level spell, but for a Hellknight Bloodrager, it is 2nd level;
3rd level (added at 13th level): Smite Entropy, which would work like Smite Abomination, but directed against Chaotic creatures; normally this would still be a 5th level spell like Smite Abomination, but for a Hellknight Bloodrager, it is 3rd level;
4th level (added at 16th level): Dispel Chaos (as a 4th level spell).
Hellknight Order abilities: A Hellknight Bloodrager that meets the prerequisites for entering the Hellknight prestige class can choose a Hellknight Discipline instead of a Bloodline Feat, using Hellknight Bloodrager level - 6 as effective Hellknight prestige class level.
^I figure that since Hellknights make use of all sorts of things (even Goblins, according to some threads on these boards) if they can be bent to their unyielding will, they could use any bloodline. Since they operate mostly in Hell-influenced areas (Cheliax, Nidal, and Korvosa) and also have a self-punishment fetish as part of their initiation rites, Infernal and Kyton (and the associated Wildblooded versions, if these ever come out) would be most common, but not the only ones; Arcane, Celestial, and Destined (and Wildblooded version thereof, if they come out) would also be somewhat common, with Hellknight orders especially eagerly seeking out Arcane (and Sage, if it comes out) candidates for their anti-spellcaster abilities, but simply having a hard time finding them. Hellknight Bloodragers of bloodlines not listed above would tend to experience distrust and discrimination within the Hellknight orders, but if they succeed in proving their loyalty and usefulness, they can earn (grudging) trust.
Also, clarification for previous post: Hellknight Order Abilities (Disciplines) can be chosen in place of Bloodline feats up to 3 times (the Hellknight prestige class has 3 levels of Disciplines).
Also, just noticed that Bloodragers apparently don't get to swap spells as they level up the way other spontaneous casters do (unless this has been FAQ/Errata'd). So upgrade Protection from Evil (1st level bonus spell, gained at 7th level) to the Communal version (early entry in terms of spell level but not in terms of when you could get it if the Communal version was on the Bloodrager spell list).
Also just realized that I left out Hellknight Armor Training:
Starting at 9th level, when a Hellknight Bloodrager that meets the qualifications for the Hellknight prestige class receives the Steelblood Bloodrager's Armor Training, the Hellknight Armor ability of the prestige class is also applied to a Hellknight Bloodrager who is wearing Hellknight plate. This alters the Steelblood Bloodrager's Armor Training as follows:
At 9th level, a qualifying Steelblood Bloodrager wearing Hellknight plate gains the Hellknight prestige class 2nd level Hellknight Armor ability;
At 13th level, a qualifying Steelblood Bloodrager wearing Hellknight plate gains the Hellknight prestige class 5th level Hellknight Armor ability;
At 17th level, a qualifying Steelblood Bloodrager wearing Hellknight plate gains the Hellknight prestige class 8th level Hellknight Armor ability.
Now that Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Path of the Hellknight has been announced for June 2016, maybe time for a revival of this thread? Wonder if this supplement will have Hellknight Armiger archetypes of common classes for entry (including spellcasting classes)? Also wonder if it will update the Hellknight prestige classes to work well with more recently released material (including said archetypes, of more classes than were around when the prestige classes were written).
No one wants to nibble at this? I'll make a start by listing which classes have (or don't have) a good thematic and mechanical fit with Hellknight:
Core Classes (pre-APG)
Barbarian (including Unchained version): At first glance seems like not a good match for the obvious reason of alignment mismatch. However, the StarCraft fan in me came up with the idea of a Hellknight Stormtrooper archetype of Barbarian, usually made from criminals or captured Barbarians by way of excruciating conditioning to channel their Rage into the path of the Hellknight. This is consistent with some other classes and archetypes being able to Rage (or something equivalent) even if of Lawful alignment. Add Heavy Armor (such as by making the archetype dependent upon the Armored Hulk archetype), and it's ready to go into the martial Hellknight prestige class.
Bard: Not a good fit. Regardless of alignment, Bards and their inspirational tactics do not fit well with the Hellknight methods of wringing the inspiration out of everyone.
Cleric: Already fits canonically with Hellknight, to proceed into the Hellknight Signifer prestige class. Probably does not need a Hellknight-specific archetype, but Crusader is a good fit.
Fighter: A good fit both mechanically and thematically with the martial Hellknight presitge class. Probably does not need a Hellknight-specific archetype, but Tactician is an especially good fit (even with needing to spend a feat or a dip to get back Heavy Armor proficiency), while some other archetypes (as well as Fighter with no archetype) would also fit well. If a Hellknight-specific archetype were to be made of Fighter, it would probably be an archetype dependent upon Tactician that replaces the 2nd level Bonus Combat Feat with Heavy Armor Proficiency, and possibly replaces Tactical Awareness (which in turn replaced Bravery) with an anti-Charm/Bluff defense (works like Bravery but works against Charm and Bluff effects instead of Fear effects).
Druid: For better or worse, the ways of Nature do not fit well with the ways of Hell.
Monk (including Unchained version): In this case, the alignments fit perfectly, but the styles do not, even aside from the obvious problem that most types of Monk cannot use armor or be effective in it even if they somehow gain proficiency (Sohei being the exception), the cultural origins of Monks and Hellknights seem incompatible.
Paladin: Canonically a route of entry, and already has the Oath Against Chaos archetype, which might as well be considered an honorary Hellknight archetype -- only problem with this is that it is incompatible with archetypes that trade out spellcasting, since the martial Hellknight prestige class is the one that is really suited for Paladins.
Ranger: As with Druid, for better or worse, the ways of Nature do not fit well with the ways of Hell. Nevertheless, somebody took a good shot at it. Also see Slayer below.
Rogue (including Unchained version): As-is, does not work well with being a Hellknight; however, see Slayer below.
Sorcerer: The Hellknight Signifer prestige class is made for 9/9 spellcasters both arcane and divine, and Sorcerer is a reasonable way to enter both mechanically and thematically, although depending upon Bloodline, aspiring Sorcerer Hellknights may want to delay entry into the prestige class until they get the Bloodline Powers they want (alternatively, enter the prestige class as soon as possible, but then insert Sorcerer levels up to the desired point before adding more Hellknight Signifer levels). If a Hellknight archetype of Sorcerer were to be made, it might do well to replace the 1st level Bloodline Power, which is often just bad in Bloodlines that fit thematically with Hellknights (with the notable exception of Infernal's Corrupting Touch); the replacement ability should give an early start on obtaining Armor Proficiency and the required Arcane Armor Training feat (perhaps also replacing Eschew Materials -- Hellknights are expected to be properly prepared to compensate for losses like this).
Wizard: As with Sorcerer, although the thematic fit is more consistent, and some Arcane Schools (such as Evocation:Admixture) have level-independent School Powers. If a Hellknight archetype of Wizard were to be made, it might do well to replace Arcane Bond with an early start on obtaining Armor Proficiency and the required Arcane Armor Training feat (perhaps also replacing Scribe Scroll).
Base Classes (pre-ACG)
Alchemist: Could fit thematically, but unfortunately neither variety of Hellknight prestige class progresses Extract use. Need another Hellknight prestige class for this.
Cavalier: Great fit thematically, although unfortunately all the non-mounted archetypes trade out Heavy Armor proficiency, leaving Tactician Fighter (which has more feats) a better choice for non-mounted Hellknights. What is needed, though, is a set of Hellknight Cavalier/Samurai Orders that correspond to the Hellknight Orders.
Gun Tank: The flavor of a Hellknight blowing away Chaos and bringing Order at the point of a gun seems very fitting. The Gun Tank archetype seems already good for entry into the martial Hellknight prestige class.
Inquisitor: In terms of flavor and role, this is about as good a fit as you are going to get with Hellknight Signifer. In terms of mechanics, this currently does not work so well, because of the same problem that is in almost all other prestige classes that progress spellcasting: When entering from a base class that has less than 9/9 spellcasting, they receive no compensation in the form of better progression of their other class features, which are often not progressed at all (although Hellknight Signifer progress Domain Powers, Inquisitions, and Mysteries) -- and compared to 9/9 spellcasters, these classes have more class features to lose from non-progression (and progression of an Inquisitor's Domain Powers or Inquisition Powers does not compensate for this). A partial exception is the Cold Iron Warden archetype of Inquisitor, which gets to stack Alignment Channeling with that of the prestige class, but even this does not fully solve the problem. One Inquisitor archetype that I'd like to see (for Hellknights and others) is a Tactical Inquisitor: Replace Solo Tactics with the Cavalier's Tactician (and eventually Master Tactician) ability, to make a true Hellknight Inquisition commander.
Magus: Also quite good fit in flavor, but same mechanical problem as for Inquisitor, plus the fact that Arcane Armor Training is a plain bad feat for Magi, but is required for entry into the Hellknight Signifer prestige class. A Hellknight Magus archetype (perhaps dependent upon Myrmidarch, Myrmicdarch + Eldritch Scion, or Skirnir, depending upon Hellknight order) should provide early progression of armor use and count as Arcane Armor Training for the purpose of feat and prestige class prerequisites.
Oracle: Already fits canonically with Hellknight, to proceed into the Hellknight Signifer prestige class. Probably does not need a Hellknight-specific archetype, but would be good to add an Infernal Mystery (which would also complement the Outer Rifts Mystery that is actually an Abyssal Mystery in all but name).
Summoner (including Unchained version): Thematically a great fit, especially for Order of the Godclaw (especially with the Unchained Summoner Lawful Outsider-themed Eidolons and/or the Unwavering Conduit archetype) and even more for Order of the Gate (for any Eidolon type). Unfortunately, the Summoner suffers from the same progression problem as the Inquisitor and Magus above, but even more so. No archetype can come close to fixing this -- a fix to the Hellknight Signifer prestige class is needed.
Witch: Hellknights are likey to distrust most Witches with their otherworldly Patrons, although a Witch that has an identifiably Lawful Patron might be accepted. Mechanically, despite being 9/9 spellcasters, their dependence upon Hexes (or the replacement White Hair ability) makes Witches suffer from the same problem as Inquisitors and Magi above, although for Witches it is possible to build around this and select Hexes that have limited or no scaling with Witch level (and similarly, White-Haired Witch mainly loses range by not staying single-class). Unfortunately, as written, Hellknight Signifer Alignment Channeling does not stack with that of a Hex Channeler Witch. If a Hellknight archetype of Witch were to be made, it might do well to replace Familiar with a Bonded Item (like that of the Gravewalker, Half-Elf Bonded Witch, or Half-Orc/Orc Scarred Witch Doctor archetypes) and an early start on obtaining Armor Proficiency and the required Arcane Armor Training feat (probably also replacing an early Hex).
Alternate Classes (pre-ACG)
Antipaladin: Chaotic Evil obviously does not fit with Hellknights -- a Lawful Evil archetype is needed. Perhaps the upcoming Insinuator archetype can work for this.
Ninja: See Rogue above; then see Slayer below.
Samurai: See Cavalier above.
Hybrid Classes (pre-Occult)
Arcanist: As with Sorcerer and Wizard, with good thematic fit, although Arcane Exploits provide more variety than Wizard. If a Hellknight archetype of Arcanist were to be made, it might do well to replace the usually non-replaced 5th level Arcane Exploit with an early start on obtaining Armor Proficiency and the required Arcane Armor Training feat, although this is not enough of a trade, so delayed Arcane Reservoir progression (which can be compensated by the feat Extra Reservoir) would be in order.
Bloodrager: As I posted above, this can fit well thematically (also see Barbarian above), although the martial Hellknight prestige class does not progress Bloodrager spellcasting. A possible fix would be a Hellknight archetype that is dependent upon Steelblood (for Heavy Armor proficiency) and Untouchable, that further modifies the Raging Resistance to interchange the 7th level advancement of this with Resistance Control (14th level) (this would also upgrade the Untouchable archetype from terrible to respectable). On the other hand, the introduction of a Hellknight semi-Signifer prestige class for 4/9 spellcasters (while also introducing one for 6/9 spellcasters) would enable use of the ideas posted earlier in this thread.
Brawler: Brawling is Chaotic, even when the Brawler isn't. Hellknights will pass on this.
Hunter: As with Druid and Ranger, for better or worse, the ways of Nature do not fit well with the ways of Hell.
Investigator: Great fit with Hellknights thematically. But as with Alchemist, unfortunately neither variety of Hellknight prestige class progresses Extract use. Need another Hellknight prestige class for this.
Shaman: Savage practices do not fit well with Hellknights (unless, of course, they are the savage practices done in the image of Hell). Hellkights will pass on this.
Skald: Not a good fit. Regardless of alignment, like Bards, Skalds and their inspirational tactics do not fit well with the Hellknight methods of wringing the inspiration out of everyone.
Slayer: Both thematically and mechanically, Slayer should work fine, and even let you get Ranger Combat Style feats in Heavy Armor -- the only bad things about Heavy Armor for a (vanilla) Slayer are that you have to spend a feat (or a martial dip) to get it, and of course Heavy Armor applies the usual Armor Check Penalties to some of your skills. Might want to go all the way to level 7 of Slayer to get Swift Action Studied Target before going into the Hellknight prestige class, or alternatively enter the prestige class as soon as possible but then take Slayer up to level 7 before taking more Hellknight levels. VMC Rogue would be a good option to get more Sneak Attack dice. A Hellknight Slayer archetype, if one were made, would probably replace the 4th level Slayer Talent with Heavy Armor Proficiency and Armor Training (as the standard Fighter class feature).
Swashbuckler: Light flashy style and Hellknights do not go together, and neither do most of the Hellknight Order favored weapons go together with Swashbuckler-stype combat skills.
Warpriest: Thematically a good fit, but suffers from the same problem as Inquisitor and Magus. A Hellknight Signifer prestige class for 6/9 spellcasters is needed to fix this.
Occult Classes (pre-Intrigue)
Kineticist: For the StarCraft fan in me, the idea of a heavily armored Firebat burninating is just too good to pass up. Unfortunately, neither of the Hellknight prestige classes progress Kineticist abilities. Fortunately, Heavy Armor does not seem to interfere with any of a Kineticist's abilities other than imposing the usual Armor Check Penalties, although Kineticst has to spend feats or a dip to get first Medium Armor Proficiency and then Heavy Armor Proficiency, and then as mentioned above does not have a suitable Hellknight prestige class to enter -- a new one of these is needed, along with an archetype that would give an early start at getting Armor Proficiency.
Medium. Letting your agents risk being controlled by outside spirits risks letting Chaos into your organization. Hellknights will pass on this.
Mesmerist. This is the Anti-Bard, which fits well thematically with Hellknights crushing the inspiration out of their foes, although an archetype is needed for fine-tuning the flavor, as well as giving an early start at getting the needed Armor Proficiency. Also, the Hellknight Signifer prestige class needs a fix, because as written it currently provides no practical means of entry for psychic spellcasters (other than non-psychic archetypes thereof). In addition, Mesmerist has the problem of being a 6/9 spellcaster that would be going into a prestige class designed for 9/9 spellcasters.
Occultist. Decent thematic fit, but (except for the Reliquarian archetype) has the same psychic spellcasting problem as Mesmerist when attempting to enter into Hellknight Signifer. In addition, Occultist has the problem of being a 6/9 spellcaster that would be going into a prestige class designed for 9/9 spellcasters.
Psychic. Decent thematic fit, but has the same psychic spellcasting problem as Mesmerist when attempting to enter into Hellknight Signifer, although at least Psychic is a 9/9 spellcaster.
Spiritualist. Decent thematic fit for certain Emotions/Phantoms, although an archetype is needed for fine-tuning the flavor, as well as giving an early start at getting the needed Armor Proficiency, but has the same psychic spellcasting problem as Mesmerist when attempting to enter into Hellknight Signifer.
Edit: Added desired Tactical Inquisitor archetype to Inquisitor.
If I were going to write up a soldier-stye order of Hellknights, I'd probably just use the Lord of Darkness Antipaladin. An order of them would be nasty. Pick up Cornugon Smash or Dazzling Display and that Command via Demoralize ability gets pretty darn cool.
These guys could legitamately draw thier weapon, say "kneel" and everyone in front of them would have to save or obey.
For rechecking potential impairment of Slayer when using Heavy Armor, just looked up Ranger Combbat Style feats (including following the links), and it looks like Slayer really does give a loophole to let you use these in Heavy Armor. Wonder if this is going to get Errata'd.
^More discussion on this in this thread (starting shortly after the Thread Necromancy point).
A bit of input from Wesley Schneider here. Looks like no new prestige classes, but maybe tweaks to the existing ones, and maybe some new Hellknight-specific archetypes of base classes.
An update, just to keep this stuff in one place:
The new Insinuator Antipaladin archetype (Agents of Evil) and better yet (at least thematically) the upcoming Tyrant Antipaladin archetype (Ultimate Intrigue) now let Antipaladins get in on the Hellknight act. And the upcoming Gray Paladin archetype (also from Ultimate Intrigue) gives a smoother path for Paladins that join the Hellknights and then fall from Good in the course of serving the Infernal ideal.