Hey, At the table today I was bombarded with rules questions, commentary, and arguments over several situations from a player. And while I dealt with it as much as I could at the table, I was curious about how other people would handle the situation, as well as making sure I did things right.
Starting with the rules questions I suppose... Today we were playing-
Spoiler:
Hall of Drunken Heroes.
To start off, when they encountered the first situation where several people try to turn them away, after standing around for a bit they commented about leaving and coming back in a day or two, and since there is some time pressure to the module as stated... I warned them out of game that would likely result in the Society sending another team to deal with the problem, and 0 0 0 chronicles. I believe abandoning the mission does result in that, even though they have hardly started?
At this point several arguments were brought up about invisibility and pushing through mobs and opening doors... where the statement was that invisibility should allow you to shove through and interact with objects and doors without notice... I said yeah, No to interacting and no one in a press of a mob and guarded doors not noticing.
Things continued for a while and due to bad luck and failed saved much of the party gained the Exhausted condition... at which point rather then continue forward to save the people that were kidnapped and in danger, despite several npcs urging and begging them to do so... One player basically insisted on a 8 hour rest to clear the condition.... and just started working off that assumption and the group couldn't move forward without them (cleric).. forcing an 8 hour break in a module that assumes immediate continuation.
I Really feel that in this case I should probably have skipped to Writing out 0 0 0 chronicles here since it says the big guy will escape soon... but as the rest of the table seemed unhappy with the situation and wanted to continue as planned but couldn't without him... I gave them a warning that I really shouldn't be allowing this, and continued the adventure primarily for the people who were trying to play it straight.... What should I have done in that situation when a Chase is delayed by 8+ hours and everything in the module tells them to hurry, but does not actually set a hard timer.
Continuing the adventure.. the group encountered one of the banes of many adventuring groups... Deeper darkness... and here is where many of the issues started to crop up again.
The first rules argument took place over whether someone using telepathy could communicate with someone in darkness, even though they had established the mental link before it went into effect. Since the creature can do so at distance with that ability, I ruled that darkness didn't stop anything, and had to squash that argument.
Next was the rules argument over a creature not being able to see in it's own deeper darkness area.. which continued even when I pointed out the creatures in question had other methods of finding targets. I am unsure about creatures and casters seeing through their own deeper darkness. but I am pretty sure the beasts were able to detect thoughts into it just fine.
Then things got a little weird, an argument over targeting invisible and unseen creatures. first with Slumber hex... because it just says target they argued that they could target it even if they could not see it and did not know where it was... I did not allow this either since you need to be able to pick out the target somehow.. (though I was nice and said if you pick the correct square i'll have them make the save.) However next round the argument came up again over spiritual weapon since it is supposed to lock on to the designated target and keep attacking... he wanted to cast it and have it magically attack the right area, because it tracked the target.. which I didn't allow at all.
Pretty sure none of these work that way, and I did not allow them too.
Next up was the rules question about being able to move through an incorporeal creatures square... argued that since it was incorporeal, it A) didn't threaten, and B) he could move through its square without provoking or acrobatics. I was pretty sure that no where in the rules was an exception for this, but I want to make sure that I did it right when I didn't allow that to happen either.
Finally after that mess was cleared up and a few more events happened, it came chronicle time I was informed he was interesting in putting a Heightened heightened heightened continual flame on his shoulderpad so he could have a level 5 light spell that could never be deeper darknessed again. I didn't record this since it sounded completely wrong to me, and I thought you couldn't apply more than one of the same metamgaic to the same spell. (otherwise hello triple enlarged or empowered fireballs.)
A few more minor issues which I dealt with... but all in all it made for a very rough session as a GM at the table being constantly challenged over the rules every few minutes, especially since I thought I had a good grasp of things, and I did not want to stop the game every round for a 5-10 minute rule discussion....
My player question, is what should I have done in the situations above, and especially with the one player who kept bringing up every single argument. Especially as the player was metagaming about the monsters, and the situation, and when he learned his aoe missed spent quite a bit of time arguing about how it wasn't really where he said originally. Then when I finally lifted the gm screen for a second to show him, no he had placed it wrong. (for areas of darkness where no one can see, I often use a GM screen to block that portion of the map, and ask them how far in front of them, and in which direction they target things etc.... Its more fun that way I think.) So immediately next he adjusts his next hit to be right in the exact area the monsters had been in without making any check, arguing of course he knew they were there....
It just made for a really rough session and I felt sorry for the other players at the table. And If anyone has any suggestions for dealing with that kind of table situation, and if I did screw up any of the rules issues, could you let me know or pass on any tips about this? (I thought about asking him to leave at one point except it would have pretty much caused a tpk without heals/spells and I didn't want to do that to the rest of the table. and was unsure if I really could have...)
I have not played, ran, or read through the scenario in question so I cant give specific answers as to the monsters abilities. All of your calls on the rules seem reasonable if not erring on the side of the players. You have two GM stars so youve been around the block but need to have the confidence to settle a problem player. In our area the assumption is that leadership will back the GM, perhaps bring this issue up to your local venture officers who might be able to offer more specific advice regarding the player and area policy.
Unless a situation is a matter of life or death, which the exhausted condition is not, at a certain point you just tell the player directly to hold all questions and comments until the end and continue with the game. It might even be the GM 101 course that says if you can settle a rule debate in a minute then settle it then, if not come back to it later.
A player can be asked to leave a table if they violate the dont be a jerk rule but that is a fairly weighty decision. I dont think questioning rulings is necessarily being a jerk as with table variation and all that could just be how that player is used to playing. As a GM sometimes I just have to eyeroll at the level of out of game knowledge obviously being referenced but you have to let some things go. I think my favorite post from the forums described gming in PFS as 4 hours of lying back and thinking of england. If you are confident in your rulings, though, do not haggle with the player over the rules. "No, you cannot see that creature to target it. I am moving you into delay in 10...9..8.."
The issue of players deciding to halt the scenario to rest despite being on a time crunch is really a bit trickier I think. Knowing the limited word count and all I take it that if a scenario mentions a time crunch it is for a reason. There is some similar precedent in choosing to bring in the effects of weather when they are mentioned in fluff but not spelled out mechanically. That should mean if the scenario mentions a time crunch you are perfectly within your purview as the judge not to allow them to rest. Dont buckle if the player wants to engage you in a game of chicken over the issue. If the other players object I would take a table vote. If the one players refuses to continue when outvoted then I would say he has crossed into jerk territory. I think this is one of those things best left to discretion. Table of new players really having a rough go? "Oh, you guys thing you can board up this room pretty easily and maybe get a little rest."
Anyway thats just one guys opinions. The important thing is not to just go straight to kicking the player off the table. Like an alignment change you need to give very overt warnings .
1. Delay. If they choose not to press ahead in a scenario where there is time pressure then warn them of the consequences and if they choose to ignore that warning then they fail the mission. I would apply the same principle to the exhausted condition situation. The rest of the group could have pushed ahead without the other character if they wanted, it would have been more difficult but such is life.
2. Invisibility doesnt make you completely unnoticeable regardless of what else you might do. I wouldnt have much of an issue with pushing through a mob as mobs tend to involve a fair amount of jostling about but trying to go through a closed door guarded by actively alert characters is going to raise suspicions.
3. Targetting. Most spells require both line of sight and line of effect. Individually targetted spells require you to be able to specifically see the person you are casting it at. Darkness, blindness etc are all dangerous for spellcasters. AoE's dont specifically require you to see the location, you must either be able to see it or define it (50' in front of me for example). Just picking the right square is also not enough, we aren't playing battleship! Spiritual Weapon does not magically lock on to its target, it attacks as you direct meaning you have to be able to see what you want it to attack.
4. Deeper Darkness is generally a right pain. Casters are not immune to their own spells. If they have some form of other sense then you need to be clear about what that sense is and how it works. Scent for example wont allow you to target creatures obscured by deeper darkness with a spell while blindsense/sight will.
5. The continual light thing is allowable and a good counter to the pain that is deeper darkness. Heighten is a single metamagic feat and you can choose how many levels to apply to a spell when casting. You can certainly heighten continual light to 5th level but you should note it on the chronicle sheet together with the caster level in the event that it is ever dispelled.
Unless the deeper darkness is being specifically targeted at the item with the continual flame on it heighten will have no effect.
If you have two items seperately in the area, one with light and another with darkness, you are not countering or dispelling the spells.
To use a counterspell, you must select an opponent as the target of the counterspell. You do this by choosing to ready an action. In doing so, you elect to wait to complete your action until your opponent tries to cast a spell. To complete the action, you must then cast an appropriate spell.
To dispell you have to target, in this case touch, the item with the effect you want to remove.
Instead their effects are combined in the area of overlap.
In the case of continual flame it is producing normal light for 20ft so when an object with deeper darkness comes into the area this still becomes darkness with anything further than 20ft in the supernatural darkness. So unless the person wearing the shoulder pad can see in normal darkness he is still going to be blind even in the 20ft around him.
An object with Daylight on it would cancel the darkness spells effect allowing "otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect" but it is not permanent.
Note that these spells are not AoE spells, they are touch, the item touched produces an effect in the area.
Thank you for volunteering to GM and I'm sorry you (and potentially the other players) had an unfun time.
I usually have a spiel I say at the top of the game, something along the lines of:
"Hi, I'm Sammy and I'll be your GM for the next 4 hours. I'm really looking forward to playing with everyone and having fun. If you've never played with me before, just a couple things you should know:
If I ask how you got a bonus or how a power works or how you did something, I don't think you're cheating. I just honestly don't know and need clarification--Pathfinder has so many rules that there's no way I can know them all. So, just be ready to explain if I ask.
During combat, know what you're going to do on your turn. I'll let you know when you're on deck. Let's keep things moving. If you can, roll your damage with your attack roll.
If there is a rules thing that takes too long to resolve, I'll just make a ruling so we can move on and not stop the game. We can look it up during the break or after the game.
Finally, this is a game, so let's just play and have fun!"
I like to upfront the rules thing with players so they know I will adjudicate fairly, but if it stops the game cold, I'm going to rule and move on...but they'll still get their day in court during a break or after the game. That tends to pre-emptively squash most prolonged rules arguments. However, it also forces me to be honest--I've sent e-mails a day or two later with links to forum posts/FAQs, regardless if I'm right or wrong, to clarify a confusing rule interaction for both parties.
Anyways, specific to your issue, after a certain point you either say at the table "Gentlemen, we only have X amount of time for this scenario--we can argue over every rule and not finish or I can make a ruling and we move on." That puts more on them (or the specific player) to pick and choose their rules battles rather than argue every single thing they disagree with.
Nothing to add, except that you're using spoiler tags wrong in your post. Why spoiler the name of the scenario, but not the contents? You should tell everyone what scenario it is, but then put the details of the scenario in the spoiler tags, so people can decide if they want to read your comments about that scenario based on whether or not they've ever played it.
Haven't read/played/GMd the scenario in question, but here's my take on the question:
Spoiler:
1) NPCs: "don't come in here." PCs: "OK" GM: "OOC: your mission's in there. if you don't go, you're going to fail." Give the players a warning. They move on? All good. They persist in waiting? 0 0 0 would have been right.
2) Invisibility. Invis is +20 to stealth if moving, +40 if not. That said, you're still there if you're invisible. Hit me with the door, open the door, or walk into me: i may not see you but i know SOMETHING'S THERE (allowing me to swing my sword at it! Go blind fight!) I might have gone with your call. Alternately, I might have given them stealth checks which they'd likely succeed on -- only to either:
A) take an elbow or two every square (difficult terrain, possibly non-lethal damage) as they pushed through the crowd that couldn't see them and wasn't interested in moving for something that wasn't even there.
B) cause a panic and be trampled by the mob that couldn't see them when the call of "invisible things in the room! run!" went out ;)
3) Without reading the scenario: kidnapped people in danger, story's pushing time even if there's not a "clock on the wall": coming back tomorrow isn't going to cut it.
No lesser resto, boys and girls? And yet you have time pressures? Agreed: push on or see #1 (warn the players' actions of the penalty for stopping....) If the cleric insists, let the party move on without him. 0 0 0 the cleric and adjust for the smaller party size if appropriate. It is possible to survive without clerics -- I've done it quite a few times!
4) telepathy in the dark? Absolutely let it keep going. I do the same with Message. See also http://paizo.com/prd/spells/telepathicBond.html
5) There are critters that essentially blind themselves if they use deeper darkness in dim light (resulting in supernatural darkness); if you want to see through your own DD, cancel it -- or have tremor sense or blind sense or.... What was the prevailing light condition before deeper darkness went off? Tracking the sliding scale that is darkness is always fun. http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/detectThoughts.html#_detect-thoug hts Nothing in there speaking for/against use in the dark; I'd let PCs/NPCs/monsters use it to find others. Note that round 1 only notes presence/absence of thought. I don't view it as a free action, so the critter has to chew up their standard to find you.
6) I'd have done what you did: "Hex is spell-like, not supernatural. It's targeted, not AoE. Pick your target. Point at it. Cast it. You can't see it? Pick where you think it is and cast away."
7) Spiritual weapon "attacks foes at a distance, as you direct it". Direct it to the creature it is to attack. Can't see it? it's just like a fighter in that respect. Direct it to attack a square. Roll attack and then 50/50 percentile dice. If your attack is high enough and the 50/50 is in your favor and the critter is there, you will hit.
8) Incorporeal absolutely threaten. They're an opponent. To quote the CRB and its discussion about movement: "Opponent: You can't move through a square occupied by an opponent unless the opponent is helpless...." Incorporeal critters aren't helpless, just ask the pally who recently lost 6 con to one! You can move through their square using acrobatics just like everything else (tumbling movement rules).
9) Um no. As you said: no stacking the same metamagic over and over. stacking different ones? sure.
GM call-wise: i would have dealt with the cleric separately, and i don't know enough about the initial light condition to know what deeper darkness would have done -- but I 100% agree with the rest of the calls.
On to the player question, a much harder issue:
Spoiler:
You had someone who wanted to argue and was going to do so. I suspect that it was "i'm angry from the 'no' I got early" bleeding all over the game.
One thing I'd have tried regarding the rules: "look through your copy of the CRB while others are acting. Show me the relevant entries after the game so we can both learn together. If the party wipes, we can also discuss what you've learned and whether or not it might have helped, but if not -- it's slowing down the game and we only have so much time. I'll happily listen to what you've learned after the game, but I'm going with my understanding of the relevant rules for now. We need to move on." Let him do the research. Discuss what he learns with him after the game if he's interested. No CRB? No basis for discussion.
Beyond that, I'd have been actively working to pull the other players into interactions with me and minimizing interactions with him unless his interactions were relevant to his turn and helpful. Essentially reward appropriate behavior and ignore inappropriate behavior. Short-term wouldn't have helped much, but might have long term.
side note: My solution for invisibility/deeper darkness is to take my monsters off the board and to take notes so I can tell players where they are if it's relevant (ABC/123 grid the map like a spreadsheet. Monster X moved to A23.) Sure, people don't bump into tables and the like, but oh well.
A merge of the two approaches could be fun. hide the room from them so they can trip over tables, don't even put monster pieces on board unless visible.
9) Um no. As you said: no stacking the same metamagic over and over. stacking different ones? sure.
This is wrong in relation to Heighten. You can absolutely heighten continua flame to 5th level or 8th or whatever level spell slot you have access to. Heighten is not a fixed 1 level metamagic, it is variable depending on the level you want to cast the spell at. The only limitation is the level of spell slots available to you.
All I can say is that deeper darkness is a total pain and very time-consuming to adjudicate properly. It's one of the things I look for when I vet a scenario for GMing.
Inability to visualize the target nerfs any ranged targeted effect, so those calls were 100% correct.
6) I'd have done what you did: "Hex is spell-like, not supernatural. It's targeted, not AoE. Pick your target. Point at it. Cast it. You can't see it? Pick where you think it is and cast away."
Umm, yes and no.
Advanced Player's Guide wrote:
Slumber (Su):
The hex class feature itself is not specified whether it's extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural; that designation is left to the individual hexes. I've seen a few Ex hexes, and a lot of Su, but no Sp. The Slumber hex itself is Supernatural, so no AoO, no spell resistance, no disruption, etc.
That said, enforcing the magic targeting rules is entirely reasonable, and almost certainly within RAW.
Also, andreww already addressed it, but as to Heighten: you can Heighten a spell by multiple spell levels. You only apply the metamagic feat once, so it's not a "Heightened heightened heightened continual flame", as the OP stated, but a "heightened (fifth level) continual flame". This particular use of Heighten Spell is actually one of the commonly recommended uses in PFS, as it makes continual flame work in the area of a deeper darkness, which means it'll have a chance to prevent the supernatural darkness effect.
Well First off I would like to thank everyone for replying, as I feel a bit better about the game now. I had thought I knew the rules fairly well, but the constant challenges and 'it doesn't work that ways' were making me doubt myself on several of the issues.
It looks however like heighten does work that way.. so how do I adjudicate the cost of it for society play... treat it like purchasing a spell of the higher level with minimum caster level for that level of spellcasting? Since it is one of the few scenario continuing spells I should probably record what item it was cast on as well, but does adding metamagic affect the spellcasting cost to a npc spell purchase other than raising the spell level?
Also, andreww already addressed it, but as to Heighten: you can Heighten a spell by multiple spell levels. You only apply the metamagic feat once, so it's not a "Heightened heightened heightened continual flame", as the OP stated, but a "heightened (fifth level) continual flame". This particular use of Heighten Spell is actually one of the commonly recommended uses in PFS, as it makes continual flame work in the area of a deeper darkness, which means it'll have a chance to prevent the supernatural darkness effect.
This is a perfectly legit way of getting rid of deeper darkness. But you are not allowed to just buy items with metamagic built in:
Paizo FAQ wrote:
Can I buy a magic item or spellcasting services with a metamagic feat applied, such as a scroll of maximized fireball, a wand of empowered shocking grasp, or employ the services of a wizard to cast extended mass bull's strength?
Generally, no. Magic items or spellcasting services must be purchased as listed in the Core Rulebook, including wands and scrolls. You may not apply metamagic feats when purchasing magic items or spellcasting services. The only exception is when the item or service is specifically listed as a reward on a Chronicle sheet.
