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If you're making a Thassilonian Specialist, be sure to click the FAQ button HERE to find out whether you can take a Focused Arcane School or not. It's a bit unclear right now.
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If you're making a Thassilonian Specialist, be sure to click the FAQ button HERE to find out whether you can take a Focused Arcane School or not. It's a bit unclear right now.I mean if you don't get the two bonus spells (I get not being able to select sub schools sin magic is effectively a sub school) then there would be no point to even having this. None of the school effects are make or break.
The extra spell slots are clearly an ability of the archetype. That's not in question. But the Designer of the Thassilonian Specialist has contradicted himself as to whether you can choose sub-schools or not. That's all.
Given the number of players I've encountered who've built their characters off of one version or the other, when one might not be legal, it becomes an important question that needs addressing.
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All of them are. It's what you bring to the character that makes it either fun or a bore.
Precisely.
There is nothing in the OP that is an issue unique to the Thassilonian Specialist archetype.
Any Wizard guide can help with those issues.
As far as Sins go, my thoughts:
Greed is actually quite strong, so if you're interested in Transmutation spells, go for it.
I think Gluttony is the most flavorful. You can play it a lot of different ways, but craving more (knowledge, food, artifacts, attention, self-perfection) can all be awesome at the table.
Sloth is probably the strongest of the Sins, as there are lots of powerful spells for your double slots.
A suggestion: the Pragmatic Activator trait is practically a 'must-have' for this archetype, to cover the most important spells from your banned schools.
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Envy could be good for you: evocation and necromancy are both (relatively) easy to live without, and abjuration spells tend to be team-helpers so you'll score brownie points with the group too. Thematically you could also help boost the other players' egos with your character always highlighting (with a hint of barely concealed jealousy) every cool thing they do.
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Envy (Abjuration): Prohibited Schools: evocation, necromancy.
Gluttony (Necromancy): Prohibited Schools: abjuration, enchantment.
Greed (Transmutation): Prohibited Schools: enchantment, illusion.
Sloth (Conjuration): Prohibited Schools: evocation, illusion.
Wrath (Evocation): Prohibited Schools: abjuration, conjuration
IMHO Greed=Gluttony>Sloth>Envy>the other 2>Wrath
In terms of what you give up in each school. Enchantment is one of the easiest schools to give up. so this instantly puts Greed and Gluttony above the others.
I would personally pick Gluttony or Sloth myself. I tend to favor necromancy and conjuration magics. I have a soft spot for Glitter Dust and Enervation. But those spells tend to lead to sharp looks from your DM.
Illusion is an alright school to give up. Biggest spell I feel you loose is Mirror Image.
Evocation can be a two edged sword in PFS....sometimes that swarm needs to be Burning Hands or Fire balled. But if you like throwing alchemist fires and can go without blast spells more power to you.
Lastly about Summoning.....Slowing the pace of the game can sometimes upset the table. It is the best form of magics in PFS but it does make your turns last forever. Some people don't have the patience for that.
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The problem is the first good necromancy spell is level 3.
I beg to differ. Ray of enfeeblement can be a nifty way to take the wind out of some nasty warrior's sails. Cause fear and scare have a limited window of relevance, but are effective within that window. Bed of iron is a unique and cute spell that can help save the party from an ambush. False life can be a life-saver. Command undead let's you walk up to enemy skeletons and zombies and say to the DM, "nope, mine." Then there's blindness/deafness...huahahahahahahaaaa....
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Ray of enfeeblement suffers from being a 'double defense' ray: i.e. you need to both hit with it, and the target also gets a save. There's a half effect minimum if you do happen to hit, but it also doesn't stack with itself, so it's of limited usefulness compared to a lot of spells.
False life is great... but how often would you need to cast two of them? Depends on the game, I guess, but I can see why the OP may not like it as an option for this particular archetype.
EDIT: Ninja'd! :)
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I'd go Sloth, focused on the offensive Conjuration stuff (rather than Summoning) with my doubled slots. There's at least one for every level (Grease + Pit Spells + Acid Fog). Very few of those are encounter-ending either (unless you only have one opponent, in which case almost any offensive spell cast can be encounter-ending). Thematically, you can just walk along (or be carried by a mount, perhaps) and be perfectly nice, just lazy as hell, using magic almost universally rather than physically doing things. You can do it without ever summoning anything.
The other 'best' option is Greed and party buffing, as others mention, and could easily be a lot of fun as a principled mercenary, very greedy but also very trustworthy, or a lot of other possible variations on being greedy.
The Gluttony version is interesting, but as you say less powerful at low levels. I'd probably say the same about Envy.
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All of them are. It's what you bring to the character that makes it either fun or a bore.Precisely.
There is nothing in the OP that is an issue unique to the Thassilonian Specialist archetype.
Any Wizard guide can help with those issues.As far as Sins go, my thoughts:
Greed is actually quite strong, so if you're interested in Transmutation spells, go for it.
I think Gluttony is the most flavorful. You can play it a lot of different ways, but craving more (knowledge, food, artifacts, attention, self-perfection) can all be awesome at the table.
Sloth is probably the strongest of the Sins, as there are lots of powerful spells for your double slots.
A suggestion: the Pragmatic Activator trait is practically a 'must-have' for this archetype, to cover the most important spells from your banned schools.
I know sloth is the strongest. Is there any way to play it without
1) Bogging down the game (I've played a druid, too many attacks can take forever)
2) Ruining others fun (I can't really help but overshadow a rogue but overshadowing the entire party isn't something I'd want to do)I actually like the idea of gluttony because I could effectively play lex luthor
Wouldn't Lex Luthor be Greed?
You can definitely play Sloth without bogging down the game.
Instead of focusing on summoning, strengthen your offensive spells.
Take feats like Varisian Tattoo, Spell Specialization, Greater Spell Specialization, Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus to boost Caster Level and saves.
You can get into all kinds of nasty combinations with the Snowball spell, let alone the rest of the Conjuration list.
Personally, I think that summoning is not all it's cracked up to be. Sure it is useful and gives you a lot of options. I think though that other Conjuration options are what make it the strongest school for this archetype.
I think Fruian is right. I agree with his entire post.
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I actually like the idea of gluttony because I could effectively play lex luthor but the problem is when you look at necromancy spells Level 1 has very little (ray of -1d6str) Level 2 has uh blindness? Level 3 has exhaust which is awesome. Level 4 has enervation which once stripped casting slots but now is pretty average, Fear however is awesome, Shadow projection isn't something you cast twice. Level 5 waves of fatigue isn't terrible but not great. Level 6 has literally no passable spell. Eyebite? Possibly but really there are just too many "Loser" levels for it to seem fun to me.
o.o *blank stare* Are you Sh*tt*ng me? You my friend need to take a course at the University of Necromancy.
You may find your way to class here:
Now for a few spells per level.
1- Chill touch, Ray of enfeeblement
2-False Life, Blindness, Defending Bone, Command Undead,
3-lesser animate dead, Vampiric touch, Ray of exhaustion
4-Animate dead, Enervate, Bestow Curse, Fear
5-Magic Jar, Waves of Fatigue, suffocation
6- Heighten Magic Jar (kind of a filler level for meta magics like Empowered Enervates or persistent Bestow Curse.)
Ray of enfeeblement is not as bad as you say. Yes it took a nerf....not everything can be regarded as trash just because of some pathfinder fix. It is still a different company. Ray of enfeeblement allows a save but also does half on a successful save. A ranged touch attack is really easy to land on any none monk. It is also able to be empowered or maximized and it continues to scale with level it is 1d6 + 1/2 levels. at max level you can easily maximize rod and empower one to do -16 str or -8 half....-8 is a serious penalty to any bruiser and basically makes all his extra attacks miss.
I just know this playground tends to have some hate for necromancers but they truly can be super powerful. Especially if you are using your familiar correctly.
Personally.... I'd run Pride. Then again, I don't know how good Illusion spells are in PFS, as I have never been. I've been fortunate that whenever I've played an illusionist, whatever GM I had at the time was pretty cool about it. Though, my favorite spells don't really come into play until later (Shadow Conjuration/Evocation)...
....
Might want to run Gluttony or Greed, I think.
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I just played level 1 with a Glutton Mage, it was fun for me but the rest of the party felt it was creepy to be surrounded by skeletons (multiple necros in the party and one had undead master). With the level 1 pfs retraining I switched to being a wrath mage mainly because it really wasn't my style.
Gluttony is the only way to go. The other specialists are mere flavor profiles on your palate.
Dhampir favored class (+1/4 CL to necromancy spells)
Varisian Tattoo (+1 CL & 0 lvl SLA - they are based on Thassilonian-style runes after all, works for any specialist)
Bloatmage Initiate (+1 CL but medium encumbrance - very flavorful for the glutton (or perhaps even the sloth)!)
Deific Obedience {Urgathoa} (Oh look! +1 CL to necromancy spells - fits the flavor too!)
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@Ostarian
Gluttony defiantly has A LOT going for it compared to some of the others.
I like the way you think tho for increasing caster level. Don't forget Death Wine. Most PFS scenarios drop Cure potions. Its like the favorite potion of all enemies. It will help boost that CL sky high.
He won't be able to be a Dhampir in PFS sadly...but all your other suggestions work.
Good show friend.
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Gluttony is the only way to go. The other specialists are mere flavor profiles on your palate.
Dhampir favored class (+1/4 CL to necromancy spells)
Varisian Tattoo (+1 CL & 0 lvl SLA - they are based on Thassilonian-style runes after all, works for any specialist)
Bloatmage Initiate (+1 CL but medium encumbrance - very flavorful for the glutton (or perhaps even the sloth)!)
Deific Obedience {Urgathoa} (Oh look! +1 CL to necromancy spells - fits the flavor too!)
Don't forget about Accelerated Drinker.
Fitting for the theme of Gluttony and it dramatically improves action economy with Deathwine.
I think Ray of Exhaustion gets overlooked a lot too. Even if they pass their save, you will get them on your next turn. Simple and effective.
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If you are considering taking the Magical lineage trait I would consider looking at the long run instead, and take it on Enervation. It it just that good! And it doesn't even require a good save on it, though having a high CL and some penetration against SR would be a good idea.
This should work quite well with the Fat Wizard themed caster and Bloatmage initiate/varisian tattoo.
^That's what I was talking about re: flavor ;)
Hadn't seen the deathwine spell. Looks tasty. Particularly for the dhampir/undead necromancer. Heal _and_ get a nice bonus to CL.
Fun trait to consider: Corpse Cannibal (you get to eat rotting flesh without any nasty side effects! Yeah you get a bonus vs. disease too, but whatever. Eat rotting flesh!).
If you're dhampir (or take Racial Heritage - dhampir), the Cruromancer archetype is nice. Bonus to DC or add a sickened effect at early levels and at 5th you can control more undead than the norm (5 HD/CL... and remember all those bonuses to CL mentioned earlier?).
Prestige class-wise:
The bloatmage is ok to continue the fat flavoring (and the Blood Points are an interesting way to be able to cast a spell more often).
Agent of the Grave fits quite nicely. Lose out on a level of spells (and, unfortunately, a CL) but gain double your AotG level for the purposes of controlling undead (nice after 5 levels of cruromancer above). 5th level and you can add non-Wizard necromancy spells to your book and a bonus to survive the change into undead. Other interesting (and some less useful) abilities in between but it does fit the flavor all the (Whispering) Way.
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I cannot animate dead as it's wasting gold and they go away shortly after.
As a necromancer you come to terms with that. But taking a tough monster and raising it sometimes makes it a more powerful creature. Using that new brute to steamroll a dungeon is priceless. I'd happily spend 1k to raise up a monster that is going to make the rest of the dungeon easy sauce. Not to mention every swing at it is one not on your team mates...it is playing the same strategy as a summoner but your undead stick around the rest of the adventure. Think of the things your not going to be buying:
A Weapon....since your not buying a weapon think of Onyx as your weapon.
Armor- No one buys bracers of armor in PFS. Your going to be using that mage armor wand you bought with your 2 PP.
Speaking of PP 2 PP gets you a purchuse up to 750g.....yes I would like 700gp worth of Onyx please.
Also you don't have to raise every single adventure....some adventures will supply you with the undead to use. So then those adventures you are saving $$ and removing an encounter.
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Animate Dead is only really expensive when raising non-humanoid creatures with lots of hit dice. Because Humanoids are so prolific in PFS, use of Animate Dead does not become financially taxing enough to be a problem.
If you do choose to animate a creature, the resultant undead loses all hd gained from class levels. Meaning that if you raise a humanoid creature, you basically pay for 1hd worth of onyx for a minion who can carry stuff for you and absorb fire. It's not so bad. Depending on your build, it can open up a number of interesting strategies, like having mobile silence/aura beacons.
Obviously, animating a non-humanoid creature yields the highest potential for a combat ready undead, but they can get expensive.
I don't know all the vaguaries of PFS.
- Is the False Focus feat available? Then you get up to 4HD free per casting (since it's valid up to 100 gp).
- There is also the transmutation spell Blood Money (take 1d6 damage and 1 STR damage +1 per 500 gp of component [so animating a 10 HD creature, normally 250 gp would be 2 STR damage and 1d6 regular damage]).
- Is Dhampir completely disallowed, or you just need a boon for it? If the latter, is the Racial Heritage feat available? If so, can you take RH (dhampir) without a dhampir boon? Again if so, then my earlier comments on the cruromancer are valid.
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I don't know all the vaguaries of PFS.
- Is the False Focus feat available? Then you get up to 4HD free per casting (since it's valid up to 100 gp).
I think that works. False Focus is PFS legal last I checked. RAW, you would not be able to use it on when animating undead that need more than 100gp of onyx.
- There is also the transmutation spell Blood Money (take 1d6 damage and 1 STR damage +1 per 500 gp of component [so animating a 10 HD creature, normally 250 gp would be 2 STR damage and 1d6 regular damage]).
Blood Money is notorious for creating game-breaking spell combos. A simple forum search will turn up several prime examples of why it should be banned. Your example is exactly how it works.
- Is Dhampir completely disallowed, or you just need a boon for it? If the latter, is the Racial Heritage feat available? If so, can you take RH (dhampir) without a dhampir boon? Again if so, then my earlier comments on the cruromancer are valid.
You need a "Grave-Blooded" race boon to play a Dhampir in PFS.
I do not believe you can make Racial Heritage do that in PFS:Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial evolutions, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race.