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It seems to me that many of the recent encounters that I have DM'ed my players steam roll with little or no threat to their character unless the players are playing out of tier.
FOr instance in a recent game that I ran I had six players five that were in the correct tier and one newb el 1. The encounter as written was three rogues who to get any kind of their bonus's rely on movement and positioning and when a party outnumbers them 2 to 1 that will never happen. IMO their need to at least 2 more rogues or 1 more Rogue and the boss that were el+2 to make the encounter more challenging for my players. The boss should have had a potion of invisibility or two to make things more challenging.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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It seems to me that many of the recent encounters that I have DM'ed my players steam roll with little or no threat to their character unless the players are playing out of tier.
FOr instance in a recent game that I ran I had six players five that were in the correct tier and one newb el 1. The encounter as written was three rogues who to get any kind of their bonus's rely on movement and positioning and when a party outnumbers them 2 to 1 that will never happen. IMO their need to at least 2 more rogues or 1 more Rogue and the boss that were el+2 to make the encounter more challenging for my players. The boss should have had a potion of invisibility or two to make things more challenging.
A first level rogue who hits with a single sneak attack has the potential to drop a first level PC from full HP to dying. That's not a challenge?
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JIggy we were playing a season 5 scenario at 4-5. Also there was no chance of the NPC's winning initiative, one of the PC's was a gunslinger with a +11 initiative and was averaging a 22 to 25 initiative so the rogues would have had to roll a 19 or 20 to win initiative and one of the other PC's was a monk who just flat out beat the crap out of one of the baddies after the baddie who got hit by a snowball.
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one of the PC's was a gunslinger with a +11 initiative and was averaging a 22 to 25 initiative
Your problem is a hyper optimized PC run by a player who doesn't understand that trivializing combat has some downsides for everybody at the table (players and GMs alike). If it becomes a problem, you should talk to this player and explain why it's a problem, and maybe ask them to tone it down a bit.
Also, snowball is dumb.
It's difficult to write scenarios for players who are prone to building over powered PCs. If you design a scenario that expects everyone to be very strong, it makes puts extra pressure on people who don't build optimized PCs.
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My observations on this: If the table has five or more players, than yes, it's probably not going to be all that hard for them. One PC may take a beating, but overall the party is going to succeed.
However, if it's three or four player, it tends to get more balanced.
I GM a lot, once or twice a week on average. When I run my PFS games, I don't try to beat the PCs in the fight, because the GM's creatures are intended to go down. What I do like to do is spread as much chaos as I can in the fights, forcing to PCs to use resources.
If the high AC fighter is the only one being attacked and never takes damage then the cleric never has to heal, no party resources expended.
However, if I spreading damage and status effects around, that can keep the PC's on their toes.
Also, remember that casters are usually smart. Force Will saves on martial characters and Reflex saves on casters. The big bad fighter isn't much of a help when he runs away from the fight for four rounds.
Finally, unless it violates the tactics of the encounter, try to get some of the critters around the party, most parties assume that the critters are going to run straight ahead, NFL style. Bring them in from the side and threaten the casters and archers.
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The thing is, Pathfinders aren't supposed to be just combat monsters - they spend three years learning how to be explorers as well. Many players ignore this campaign background when character-building, and so they overpower the combats (and sometimes complain when they play an exploration scenario and don't have the skills they need to succeed).
Ultimately, though - the players are supposed to win. The less time that combat takes, the more time the GM has to bring the setting alive and engage in roleplaying. It takes a while for many GMs to see this as the "silver lining" of overpowered characters, though. If you want to enjoy Pathfinder by winning combats, you should consider playing instead of GMing.
Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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I have noticed that the Year 5 low level adventures seemed to have toned things down from Year 4 but not the high levels. This makes sense to me. Being deadly to newbs is a good way to not have your newbs come back. Higher level characters, however, are already hooked.
I have also noticed the sneak attach problem in PFS. Sense there are a fair number of city encounters in PFS, the rogue type characters are a very common encounter. And while they usually come in at least pairs, the party tendency to out number them, focus fire or have a better build can frequently cause a flanking buddy to drop before the sneak attacker has much of a chance to do anything. And I think part of the problem with this is traditional thinking. When authors think of street toughs they normally think in terms of fighters & rogues. But there is not reason in a fantasy world why they might not include a caster. One 4th level sorcerer with Glitterdust and 3 4th level rogues is a lot more powerful than 4 4th level rogues.
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The thing is, Pathfinders aren't supposed to be just combat monsters - they spend three years learning how to be explorers as well.
There are also field commissions, which seem by far to be the more popular option for player characters. They've moved away from the three years of training/hazing approach.
Many players ignore this campaign background when character-building, and so they overpower the combats (and sometimes complain when they play an exploration scenario and don't have the skills they need to succeed).
Or don't know it. The society is a good justification for sending whatever random characters show up to the table on their whacky hijinks, and some people don't see the need to take it further than that. The society certainly runs into enough trouble that they would keep Grock the Rock on staff to accompany their archeologists, and you don't even bend suspension of disbelief until you have a party of ALL Grocks.
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Special Initiative Actions:
Here are ways to change when you act during combat by altering your place in the initiative order.Delay...
Ready...There is a rule against it. Some people just play it wrong.
That you can do it in combat is no guarantee that you can't do it out of combat. I think the old example was someone guarding a door to shoot the first person to try to come in it.
Just to be clear, i don't like this tactic and I don't use it. I assume that when the party is kicking in a door, the party has readied actions, my monsters have readied actions, its a wash, roll init and start your blasting. I just don't feel i have enough to beat the DM over the head with.
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There seem to be a few season 5 mods where the writers are trying to TPK the players in the first round. "Elven Entanglement" certainly rises to the top of the septic tank.
In all seriousness, that encounter truly was a game of bazooka tag. More than half of our party could have easily died in round 2.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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There seem to be a few season 5 mods where the writers are trying to TPK the players in the first round. "Elven Entanglement" certainly rises to the top of the septic tank.** spoiler omitted **
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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[
** spoiler omitted **
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** spoiler omitted **There seem to be a few season 5 mods where the writers are trying to TPK the players in the first round. "Elven Entanglement" certainly rises to the top of the septic tank.** spoiler omitted **
Step 2... Gunslinger tried to get out of there by tumbling.. FAIL
Step 3... Bard D-Doors Gunslinger and Cleric to safe spot. Cleric heals all three, applies oil of bless weapon to gun.
Step 4... Bard D-Doors all three back into danger - Gunslinger fires with haste and rapid shot, barely finishing off the critter before it can trample again. 4 Grit used to increase touch to 2nd range band (one per shot)
I think the issue is pfs scenario are written with a broad spectrum of players in mind. Until pfs can write a general way to make scenarios harder that works as a generic rule all scenario have to be surivavable by the weakest players.
Here's an example in my home game I have 4 players. 1 of these is not a gamer he's there to do social stuff with his friends. Me makes lots of mistakes and often has no foreward planning for anything. My second player has a full understanding of the fantasy narrative but has a learning disability. Finally I have 2 players with a lot of experience that make characters within the framework of the people they play with. (Basically as per example above they both grasp trivializing encounters can hurt the game for others).
Now based on my limited pfs experience if you threw in "player more focused on optimized mechanics" to the above 4 you'd cover most of the people I've played with in a generalized way.
Essentially the learning disabled and the inexperienced player need to be able to survive the pfs encounter in the case random table searing puts 4-6 people all falling in that description.
However my actual experience has been about 50% of the player base at my local group falls into the experienced player or "player more focused on mechanics" resulting in the scenario being on the easy side.
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** spoiler omitted **There seem to be a few season 5 mods where the writers are trying to TPK the players in the first round. "Elven Entanglement" certainly rises to the top of the septic tank.** spoiler omitted **
TOZ -
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Until pfs can write a general way to make scenarios harder that works as a generic rule all scenario have to be survivable by the weakest players.I wish more scenarios had hard mode. And some scenarios should have Baird mode.
Not every facility has either the paper shredder or the water fountain necessary to give the character sheets the proper treatment after Baird mode.
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It is true though, sometimes I'll look at an encounter, realize how hopelessly mismatched the enemy is and instead approach from the direction of how can I at least entertain my players.
One of my favorite experiences was when a scenario contained multiple encounters against a gang that was no challenge at all. The GM played it up for comedic effect (boasting while obviously losing, flashing gang signs while falling over, etc) and I had a great time.
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It is true though, sometimes I'll look at an encounter, realize how hopelessly mismatched the enemy is and instead approach from the direction of how can I at least entertain my players.
This is good advice.
In Feast of Sigils the BBEG got hit by both the blind and deafness conditions. Then she got pinged by a Fairie Fire but didn't realize it because she couldn't make the spellcraft check. Per her tactics when she was outmatched she was supposed to quaff a potion of invisibility and try to run, but she had no escape route, and couldn't tell where she was at. So I just had her drink the potion (and not go invisible) and fall prone into the fetal position.
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Until pfs can write a general way to make scenarios harder that works as a generic rule all scenario have to be surivavable by the weakest players.I wish more scenarios had hard mode. And some scenarios should have Baird mode.
I honestly don't think the issue is specifically the scenarios. But a lot of players don't seem to grasp that pfs doesn't need Iberia optimization.
So at an average table of 5-6 in my local area 1/3 will be in the abnormally optimizes range. But there's no way I can think of to pre plan scenario to account for this.
I just aimed for a mid range schtick... I also have a non special lap dog on my gnome alchemist. The goal is to get snuggles the Chihuahua through as many encounters as possible with no training or special powers. My gnome is lvl 4 so far... though I suspect snuggles days are numbered.
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There are scenarios with BBEG's who win a lot, or at least take people down with them.
People complain about them as well.
** spoiler omitted **
I've played or gm'd all four of those and are the same four scenarios I'd also describe as being tough. I've gm'd
In wrath's shadow: two player character deaths and 1 mount on final boss in low tier.
Waking rune: 2 player deaths-which required raises
Fortress of nail: dog breathed two pcs into oblivion requiring raises.
As a player haunts was terrifying and got close to death several times.
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There are scenarios with BBEG's who win a lot, or at least take people down with them.
People complain about them as well.
** spoiler omitted **
I've played or gm'd all four of those and are the same four scenarios I'd also describe as being tough. I've gm'd
** spoiler omitted **
I'm happy to say I was at the table for all of those scenarios with you, on one side of the screen or the other. :)
The other one to add:
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At Phoenix Comicon we had a TPK in Library of the Lion.Err.... How? You can easily avoid all combat?
Probably went something like This
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One idiot attacked the Guardian.At Phoenix Comicon we had a TPK in Library of the Lion.Err.... How? You can easily avoid all combat?
Attacked?
In my group one insane gnome cleric licked the Guardian. And made me help, because he was to short to lick that high.
That's the same gnome that has been quoted as saying, "I am Lawful Good, b***h!"
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There seem to be a few season 5 mods where the writers are trying to TPK the players in the first round. "Elven Entanglement" certainly rises to the top of the septic tank.
As the writer of that scenario and a GM who has seen PCs beat that encounter in one round on two occasions, I assure you the goal was not a TPK. The goal was a good time. It's kind of a bummer to hear so many players didn't get past that encounter in the scenario, especially when there are pretty regular "encounters are too easy" threads, like this one.
There seem to be a few season 5 mods where the writers are trying to TPK the players in the first round. "Elven Entanglement" certainly rises to the top of the septic tank.As the writer of that scenario and a GM who has seen PCs beat that encounter in one round on two occasions, I assure you the goal was not a TPK. The goal was a good time. It's kind of a bummer to hear so many players didn't get past that encounter in the scenario, especially when there are pretty regular "encounters are too easy" threads, like this one.
I now feel sorry for Ryan :(
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As the writer of that scenario and a GM who has seen PCs beat that encounter in one round on two occasions, I assure you the goal was not a TPK. The goal was a good time.
Lies. We both know that John's outlines include, "No matter what, make sure the turnover doesn't allow for the GM to run a fun game. Give the GM the tools to TPK in every encounter."