So the Alchemical manual seems really exciting to me. And it offers an opportunity for what I'd consider an actual alchemist, instead of a pseudo spellcaster like the current alchemist is. So I've come up with a really rouge draft of an alchemist archetype to incorporate the concept of instand alchemy into the alchemist, while also making him a cut above the rest in such a practice. Not sure what to call it yet. But here are the class features I am considering. Please note this references material from the Alchemy manual, so if you arent familiar with it its not going to make alot of sense.
True Alchemy:
The alchemist gains Instant Alchemy feat as a bonus feat. In addition, any alchemical item crafted by the alchemist has a save DC equal to 10+1/2 the alchemists level + his intelligence modifier, or the items normal dc, whichever is higher. This feature replaces brew potion.
Concoctions:
An alchemist is the quitesential improviser, and a master of the art of alchemy. He is able to substitute common easily available ingrediants for more valuable reagents. So long as he has access to his alchemist's lab or kit, he can create any alchemical Item using swift alchemy that he is able to create with a standard action using only ingrediants that have an insignificant cost —comparable to the valueless material components of most spells, instead of the regeants required by the recipe. However such items are not stable. The alchemist may only have a number of such alchemical items created at a time equal to his alchemist level as he must carefully manage the concoctions in order to keep them from becoming inert. If he creates an additional concoction beyond his normal limit, he must choose one concoction to become inert.
This ability replaces the alchemist's Extracts. An alchemist with this ability does not gain have a formulae book and cannot create extracts.
New Discovery:
Lightning Mixer: The alchemist is able to create items even faster then before. The time to create alchemical items using swift alchemy is reduced an additional step, 1 standard action becomes a swift action, 10 minutes becomes a standard action, an hour becomes 10 minutes. The alchemist must be at least 3rd level to take this Discovery
Confident Alchemy: The alchemist gains the Sure-Handed Alchemy feat as a bonus feat.
Steady Hands: The limit of concoctions the alchemist can create at a time is increased by 2.
On further consideration I am wondering if 'Lighting Mixer' should simply replace swift alchemy. I am honestly not sure if swift alchemy should be left alone, or not as I dont know for sure how it interacts with spontaneous alchemy at all. Maybe replacing it would be better to avoid the confusion?
I think one concoction per level may be too many a high levels, possibly limiting it by intelligence midfier might work. Any thoughts? I am hoping to get this to the table for a playtest some time soon, but it definately could use another couple of eyes before that.
Do you have plans to upgrade alchemical items? They sort of lose luster at high levels, even ignoring the DCs.
Given the potential effects of poisons with relatively high dc's i am not entirely sure about that. But I am open to suggestions. Keep in mind I am not trying to replicate the power of high level spells here. I am trying to give the alchemist a new foundation in alchemy as opposed to pseudo spells.
What would you recommend? What about the ability to combine alchemical effects? So for instance have a fuse grenade that also releases an inhaled poison, or something along those lines?
Well I guess I should point out that I fundamentally dont want the alchemist's abilities to be limited by actual gold. Though somehow limiting the more expensive items to later levels might be good. The problem is how doyou actually work that out? Its one of the reasons I am simply putting a hard limit on the number of concoctions the alchemist can have available at once. Sure he might be able to have some costly poisons or alchemical items, but are they really superior to spells? I dont think so. Ofcourse it will require playtesting to be sure.
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Here is a slight re-write, including a progression for alchemical items.
Swift Alchemist:
The alchemist gains Instant Alchemy feat as a bonus feat. In addition, any alchemical item crafted by the alchemist has a save DC equal to 10+1/2 the alchemists level + his intelligence modifier, or the items normal dc, whichever is higher. This does not alter the DC to craft the items, only the dc of any effects the item creates. This feature replaces brew potion.
Concoctions:
An alchemist is the quintessential improviser, and a master of the art of alchemy. He is able to substitute common easily available ingredients for more valuable reagents. So long as he has access to his alchemist's lab or kit, he can create any alchemical Item using swift alchemy that he is able to create with a standard action using only ingredients that have an insignificant cost —comparable to the valueless material components of most spells, instead of the regents required by the recipe. However such items are not stable. The alchemist may only have a number of such alchemical items created at a time equal to his intelligence modifier as he must carefully manage the concoctions in order to keep them from becoming inert. If he creates an additional concoction beyond his normal limit, he must choose one concoction to become inert. Once a concoction has been used, it no longer counts against his total number of concoctions available. However any concoction that leaves his possession without being used or applied (including poisons or drugs applied to an item or added to food/drink) becomes inert after one round. At which point it ceases to function, and no longer applies toward the alchemists maximum number of concoctions.
At 8th level the alchemist gains the ability to combine the effect of two alchemical items into one in his concoctions. They must be of the same type (alchemical weapon, Alchemical Remedies, Poisons etc). The item created has the effect of both alchemical items, and each effect must be saved against individually. Such an item created takes the combined time of both items, and takes up two of the number of concoctions an alchemist may keep at once.
At 14th level, the alchemist can combine 3 alchemical items into one. In addition, poisons and drugs can be added to alchemical weapons so long as they are of the type inhaled, or injury. Any creature affected by the alchemical weapon is also subject to the poison or drug.
This ability replaces the alchemist's Extracts. An alchemist with this ability does not gain have a formulae book and cannot create extracts.
New Discoveries:
Lightning Mixer: The alchemist is able to create items even faster then before. The time to create alchemical items using swift alchemy is reduced an additional step, 1 standard action becomes a swift action, 10 minutes becomes a standard action, an hour becomes 10 minutes. The alchemist must be at least 3rd level to take this Discovery
Confident Alchemy: The alchemist gains the Sure-Handed Alchemy feat as a bonus feat.
Careful Hands: The limit of concoctions the alchemist can create at a time is increased by 2.
I'm always baffled by what people mean by the class not being a "true alchemist" when alchemy is such an insanely broad subject. Even the wikipedia article on it says the only agreed on practices of alchemy involve finding the philosopher's stone, a way to transmute common metals into precious metals, and the elixir of life. In fact, some forms of alchemy don't involve substances at all, and instead almost solely focus on self perfection and spiritual transformation.
I'm always baffled by what people mean by the class not being a "true alchemist" when alchemy is such an insanely broad subject. Even the wikipedia article on it says the only agreed on practices of alchemy involve finding the philosopher's stone, a way to transmute common metals into precious metals, and the elixir of life. In fact, some forms of alchemy don't involve substances at all, and instead almost solely focus on self perfection and spiritual transformation.
Well obviously there are lots of definitions of alchemists. But from a mechanical perspective, very little of what the alchemist class does, involves what the game calls alchemy. Alchemy is a mundane practics that creates a effects with specific regents and chemicals. The alchemists' extracts and mutegens are effectively magical effects. Its just another way of casting spells.
My intent with this is to bring the alchemical items side of alchemy into prominence in the alchemist class
I'm always baffled by what people mean by the class not being a "true alchemist" when alchemy is such an insanely broad subject. Even the wikipedia article on it says the only agreed on practices of alchemy involve finding the philosopher's stone, a way to transmute common metals into precious metals, and the elixir of life. In fact, some forms of alchemy don't involve substances at all, and instead almost solely focus on self perfection and spiritual transformation.Well obviously there are lots of definitions of alchemists. But from a mechanical perspective, very little of what the alchemist class does, involves what the game calls alchemy. Alchemy is a mundane practics that creates a effects with specific regents and chemicals. The alchemists' extracts and mutegens are effectively magical effects. Its just another way of casting spells.
My intent with this is to bring the alchemical items side of alchemy into prominence in the alchemist class
Alchemy in Pathfinder is essentially a non-spellcaster's magic anyway. You could easily just refluff the alchemist so all his abilities are extraordinary instead of supernatural abilities. Any sufficiently strong alchemy options might as well be spells, consumable magic items, or use spells/magic items as a mechanical basis.
The thoughts that lie behind my criticism involve the fact that alchemy a fairly undeveloped part of the game system. Look at spellcasting and magic items as mechanics. Both of them have well defined rules and organize the power level of effects into tiers. The rulebook dedicates entire chapters to both these mechanics. In fact, the game uses spells as the central benchmark for many effects and class features. No similar system exists for alchemical items. They're just static, mundane items.
A class that latches onto a weak, poorly supported mechanic will be incredibly weak at best and unplayable at worst. As a result, an alchemist archetype that replaces bombs and/or extracts for alchemical item perks will be terrible, because you're exchanging a class feature that uses a well developed mechanics/content for one that does not. This is why the alchemist's extracts work similarly to spells, a well-supported existing mechanic integral to the game.
To make an alchemist class that uses non-magical alchemical items as a focus, you would have to redefine or expand alchemical items as a game mechanic. I personally would take either of two approaches to this.
1) Replace extracts with a class feature that works similarly to extracts, but instead of "spells," they're alchemical items drawn from a unique list of effects. The alchemist learns the recipes of these items in a similar manner to learning Discoveries.
2) Redefine alchemical items as a game mechanic, treating them as a system similar yet different to spells much like how Psionics Unleashed handles psionic powers.
3) Redefine alchemical item creation, treating them as a subset of magic items similar to potions, but are considered extraordinary effects rather than magical effects. These alchemical items can mimic spells, but many unique ones also exist.
Alchemy in Pathfinder is essentially a non-spellcaster's magic anyway. You could easily just refluff the alchemist so all his abilities are extraordinary instead of supernatural abilities. Any sufficiently strong alchemy options might as well be spells, consumable magic items, or use spells/magic items as a mechanical basis.
The thoughts that lie behind my criticism involve the fact that alchemy a fairly undeveloped part of the game system. Look at spellcasting and magic items as mechanics. Both of them have well defined rules and organize the power level of effects into tiers. The rulebook dedicates entire chapters to both these mechanics. In fact, the game uses spells as the central benchmark for many effects and class features. No similar system exists for alchemical items. They're just static, mundane items.
A class that latches onto a weak, poorly supported mechanic will be incredibly weak at best and unplayable at worst. As a result, an alchemist archetype that replaces bombs and/or extracts for alchemical item perks will be terrible, because you're exchanging a class feature that uses a well developed mechanics/content for one that does not. This is why the alchemist's extracts work similarly to spells, a well-supported existing mechanic integral to the game.
To make an alchemist class that uses non-magical alchemical items as a focus, you would have to redefine or expand alchemical items as a game mechanic. I personally would take either of two approaches to this.
1) Replace extracts with a class feature that works similarly to extracts, but instead of "spells," they're alchemical items drawn from a unique list of effects. The alchemist learns the recipes of these items in a similar manner to learning Discoveries.
2) Redefine alchemical items as a game mechanic, treating them as a system similar yet different to spells much like how Psionics Unleashed handles psionic powers.
3) Redefine alchemical item creation, treating them as a subset of magic items similar to potions, but are considered extraordinary effects rather than magical effects. These alchemical items can mimic spells, but many unique ones also exist.
First off. I whole heartedly do not wish to take the same kind of mechanics that spells use and call them something else. For me, mechanics inform flavor. If something functions mechanically identically to magic, I dont intend to call it anything else.
I have absolutely no desire to make an alternate magic system and call it alchemy. What I do intend to do is take an already robust aspect of the game, alchemical weapons, alchemical remedies, poisons, drugs and make them a viable primary class feature. The alchemy manual makes a great start of this. My goal here, is to work them in as a class feature.
Because actually, alchemical items are fairly well developed. There is a quite alot you can do with alchemical items. Lets have a look shall we?
Damage:
Alchemist fire, acid flast, liquid ice, bottled lighning - the basic elements.
But they arent alone. Shreik bombs do 2d6 sonic damage, Pelet grenades do 3d6 damage, so do fuse grenades. Keep in mind also that alchemists with this archetype will still have their bombs to use.
That said, lets look at what else they can do.
Stun a creature - Burst Jar
Blind a creature - flash powder
nausiate a creature - ghast retch flash
debuff attacks, saving throws, skill checks and ability checks - itching powder
Stagger a creature - sneezing powder
Entangle or completely trap a creature - Tanglefoot bag
entangle/trap a creature and set it on fire - tangleburn bag
deafen a creature - thunderstone
Bore through walls - tunnel creeper (alchemy manual)
make a creautre highly open to suggestion and to create false memories - confabulation powder (alchemy manual)
remove a targets memory (cytillesh extract) alchemy manual
put a target to sleep (several poisons)
do ability damage, or kill a target (most posiosns)
addict someone to a drug and do ability damage (most drugs)
That is a pretty solid list of stuff for a character to do. Ofcourse all those items are often overlooked because they have really low dcs. But if the dcs scale with the alchemists level and intelligence, they wont be low. And if they can be created on the fly as a standard or swift action (with swift alchemy and lightning mixer) then they suddenly become as available as spells, without just being reflavored spells.
There are then all the alchemical rememedies (that give bonuses to saves against various things, or help recovery) that would be really useful if you could just whip one up in a few minutes or a few seconds. Again, thats kind of the point of this archetype.
Particularly with all the vicious poisons that are out there, I dont see how this is going to be a terrible archetype. My concern is more if this is going to be too powerful, or where to put the progression of the class.
Kolokotroni, I think you are on to something. I personally have loved the whole alchemy angle, even in 2E, where I had to adapt and rework things so that those who decided to learn alchemy could create viable antidotes, bombs, etc. I think creating a solid mechanic or archetype that utilizes alchemical items as uabale and viable options in and out of combat is spot on.
Definately, the use of alchemical items should not in any ways be "magical" per se. However, the mechanics of the bombs and even extracts (adapted of course) may be useful to give daily limits, or even hard limts to how many can be created at a given time.
Kolokotroni, I think you are on to something. I personally have loved the whole alchemy angle, even in 2E, where I had to adapt and rework things so that those who decided to learn alchemy could create viable antidotes, bombs, etc. I think creating a solid mechanic or archetype that utilizes alchemical items as uabale and viable options in and out of combat is spot on.
Definately, the use of alchemical items should not in any ways be "magical" per se. However, the mechanics of the bombs and even extracts (adapted of course) may be useful to give daily limits, or even hard limts to how many can be created at a given time.
I intend to leave bombs just as they are. Mutegens also. They fit enough of the actual theme for me.
I dont intend to use the 'spell slot' mechanics of extracts. It was always pretty darn arbitrary even for magic. Alchemy isnt likely to ever be as capable as magic, so id prefer not to make it a 'per day' resource. Or try to figure out 'levels' for alchemical items. Besides, any character can access any of these items at any time if they have the money, all the alchemist gets is the ability to have a few of them without paying for them, and a scaling save dc.
Like the normal alchemy rules he can spend money to make as many as he wants, but they would be made a bit better since he's you know an alchemist, so the dcs scale.
That would work. Increasing save DC, allowing fast creation (maybe 1/2 or 1/4 time normal rate), maybe even reduced cost as he'll know short cuts, alternate reagents/ingredients. Might even want to check and see how long they actually take to make. Dependin gon cost or time requirements, you could also group them into standard action, full-round, 1 minute, 10 minute and 1 hour times. But thats only if there is a significant time difference in construction. Reduction to 1 minute/10 minute/1 hour construction times would be most appropriate I think.
That would work. Increasing save DC, allowing fast creation (maybe 1/2 or 1/4 time normal rate), maybe even reduced cost as he'll know short cuts, alternate reagents/ingredients. Might even want to check and see how long they actually take to make. Dependin gon cost or time requirements, you could also group them into standard action, full-round, 1 minute, 10 minute and 1 hour times. But thats only if there is a significant time difference in construction. Reduction to 1 minute/10 minute/1 hour construction times would be most appropriate I think.
Did you read my archetype and are you familiar with the swift alchemy feat from the alchemy manual? Cuz um, thats already in there.
Swift alchemy lets specific alchemical items be crafted in 1 standard action, 10 minutes, 1 hour, 1 day, 1 week. The archetype removes the material cost of a subset of them, and one of the new discoveries speeds them up further.
The alchemist would still be able to use the actual regeants to do swift alchemy normally, he just would need to have the specific regeants from the instant alchemy system on hand to do it.
Sweet. I actually only glanced at it. Been busy with other things, but need to do an in-depth of the Alchemy Manual