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I've been reading through but there seems to be different opinions across different threads. But anyway, here's the question:
I have a monk with a cestus. If it's equipped on both hands, how is damage applied if I use Unarmed Strike, not the weapon itself?
Case 1: Apply standard monk unarmed damage, but retain crit range (19-20) and the option to deal Pierce or Bludgeoning damage. (logically it should be both, but APG says OR)
Case 2: Apply all cestus stats; damage 1d4+STR. A good way to endorse this weapon to a monk. ;)
Now here's the catch, according to APG, here is the description of Cestus:
then, looking back a bit, here is the description of Brass Knuckles in APG:
This leads me to conclude that it could simply be a case of forgetting to add the last bit of text for the Cestus since Brass Knuckles are functionally similar to it... Thus Case 1 will hold true, but I hope this can be verified by someone with legal authority.
Wasn't there any FAQ or editing on this weapons ? Can't find it.
I remember it was case 2.
The Cestus is an odd, odd weapon. There is likely some editing mistakes here.
First of all, it is considered a simple light weapon. So you can attack with the cestus directly. However, the description of the cestus talks about your unarmed attacks, and how the cestus modifies them, so it is strongly implied that to use a cestus, you should attack with unarmed attacks instead.
You're not going to get a "legal authority" to reply, unless you get a FAQ submitted and replied to.
In the mean time, you can interpret it in a myriad of ways. But there are two version that are fairly internally consistent.
My personal take on it is that the cestus was intended to modify unarmed attacks, and so adjudicate it as such. In my opinion there is no such thing as 'attack with a cestus", instead you make an armed unarmed attack while wearing a cestus.
Consequently, I believe that you apply the better of any options you have which modify your unarmed attacks. So, apply the crit range of the cestus, the option of damage type, and use the monk's unarmed damage.
The other reading is perfectly valid as well however. That to utilize the damage and crit range, you would need to attack with the cestus directly, and could not gain these benefits on your unarmed attacks. You could still use the damage types listed however, because it specifies these apply to unarmed attacks. So you would retain that modified parameter, even with any unarmed attacks you make using the monk unarmed damage and crit range.
Both valid, depending on your POV.
Yeah, I was browsing the FAQ for both Core and APG, searching all monk and cestus related posts but there was no specific question addressing this. I suppose I'd have to submit this to my GM every time (since he's a PFS character) until further notice; just so I can decide whether to wear the cestus or not for combat.
I seem to remember the ruling for this being absolutely terrible for Monks. Basically they backtracked on the Monk being able to apply unarmed strike damage to brass knuckles (and therefore the cestus). I can't seem to find where I read it though so I may just be making it up.
Sure hope you're right though, cesti are awesome and I love using them.
Cestuz is a weapon you apply its statistics seperate from your unarmed strike.
You use your unarmed attack or you attack witht he cestus. That is, you use the entire statistics of one or the other, you woudl not use the unarmed damage witht he crit range of the cestus.
I seem to remember the ruling for this being absolutely terrible for Monks. Basically they backtracked on the Monk being able to apply unarmed strike damage to brass knuckles (and therefore the cestus). I can't seem to find where I read it though so I may just be making it up.
Sure hope you're right though, cesti are awesome and I love using them.
No, no, I remember the same thing. My search-fu is just too weak to actually find it. But the point was that a designer came into a thread like this and stated that they were just light simple weapons with the monk quality, if I remember right.
But eh, not being able to apply the unarmed strike damage is not that bad. That random damage is the least you should be worried about generally, and instead static modifiers are far more important. I mean really, if just adding more dice made a class great, then people would find rogues fantastic.
This is a weapon with 19-20/x2 crit range that can be used as a monk weapon. And since you can flurry with a single weapon, then it is far cheaper than an AoMF, which means you can much more easily grab a nice enhancement bonus to help cover any damage gap compared to your unarmed strikes (and raise your attack rolls to make it possible to even cause damage in the first place). It can be special materials, and it deals bludgeoning and piercing damage. It is light, so people using dex builds can use it (I never quite liked those, but that is just my opinion). It only interferes with a couple of skills (which monks generally don't specialize in anyway), so it can be worn all the time.
Overall, it fulfills the niche it was designed for- providing options for monks who were left behind with the way the game amped up martials as it took the 3.5 classes and tweaked them for pf. We have other options now (AoMF on a qinggong monk that grabbed barkskin, as well as the lovely sohei archetype), but it still serves its purpose.
Ah well... I was thinking of going elemental fist anyway. You're right, lemeres, about the crit chance being good for flurries. I just don't fully understand which attacks are multiplied and which are not yet.
Technically since both are enhancement bonuses you wouldn't get both.
There was more of a huge stink over this ruling because it allowed for players to completely bypass Amulet of Mighty Fists, a specific magic item that may not be accessible and more expensive than simply enchanting a cestus. It was seen as a huge nerf for Monks who are considered one of the underpowered classes.
I think that the changes may have come in Ultimate Equipment, but not positive.
Technically since both are enhancement bonuses you wouldn't get both.
There was more of a huge stink over this ruling because it allowed for players to completely bypass Amulet of Mighty Fists, a specific magic item that may not be accessible and more expensive than simply enchanting a cestus. It was seen as a huge nerf for Monks who are considered one of the underpowered classes.
For 'stacking' bonuses, I was referring to something like:
+4 adamantine gauntlet (bypass all DR) (19k for +4)
AoMF: shocking, frost, corrosive (or whatever else) (18k for +3)
to get
+4 shocking, frost, corrosive... 37k gold gives you bonus of a +7 weapon, which is normally 101k (not available on an AoMF). RAW it still works - and that was the original reason to exclude weapons like cesti and brass knuckles from working with FOB. Technically, you can also add in a Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes for another set of bonuses on some of your attacks.
Which is another nerf considering that it doesn't specify that the total enhancement bonus goes past +5. It's more of an argument to disregard Amulet of Mighty Fists and just enchant gloves, gauntlets and cesti.
One thing to note, if that were the original reason to nerf Cestus, why does Bodywraps exist? Theoretically you could do the same thing in that situation with the only difference being that it's slightly more expensive.
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Monks are one of the strongest classes. Only thing stronger are those Rogues who one shot everything with massive sneak attacks.
Don't forget the OP Commoners.
Technically since both are enhancement bonuses you wouldn't get both.
There was more of a huge stink over this ruling because it allowed for players to completely bypass Amulet of Mighty Fists, a specific magic item that may not be accessible and more expensive than simply enchanting a cestus. It was seen as a huge nerf for Monks who are considered one of the underpowered classes.
For 'stacking' bonuses, I was referring to something like:
+4 adamantine gauntlet (bypass all DR) (19k for +4)
AoMF: shocking, frost, corrosive (or whatever else) (18k for +3)
to get
+4 shocking, frost, corrosive... 37k gold gives you bonus of a +7 weapon, which is normally 101k (not available on an AoMF). RAW it still works - and that was the original reason to exclude weapons like cesti and brass knuckles from working with FOB. Technically, you can also add in a Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes for another set of bonuses on some of your attacks.
Which is another nerf considering that it doesn't specify that the total enhancement bonus goes past +5. It's more of an argument to disregard Amulet of Mighty Fists and just enchant gloves, gauntlets and cesti.
One thing to note, if that were the original reason to nerf Cestus, why does Bodywraps exist? Theoretically you could do the same thing in that situation with the only difference being that it's slightly more expensive.
As I recall, the main reason the Cestus and Brass Knuckles got nerfed was that if they could use the monks' unarmed damage then they became "too good" as weapon choices. Basically, there would be no reason to give a monk any weapon other than a cestus if it used his unarmed damage while retaining the bigger crit range and multiple damage types. Not to mention it would obsolete the Amulet of Mighty Fists (at least for monks), something the dev team was adamant about avoiding.
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Someone realized that they had thrown monks a bone. Steps were quickly taken to put them back in their place.
FWIW, I'm houseruling them back to the way they were in the APG. There's already no reason to use a Monk weapon anyway, and the Amulet of Mighty Fists is overpriced for a monk vs a dragon, so I just don't see the harm in giving the monk something good every so often.
But I also remember that they nerfed the Cestus and the Brass Knuckles a while back.
FWIW, I'm houseruling them back to the way they were in the APG. There's already no reason to use a Monk weapon anyway, and the Amulet of Mighty Fists is overpriced for a monk vs a dragon, so I just don't see the harm in giving the monk something good every so often.
But I also remember that they nerfed the Cestus and the Brass Knuckles a while back.
Eh. After they reduced the price, it was the same price as two similarly enhanced weapons. Since flurry works like TWF....it seems only fair. Troublesome, sure, since those weapons could be enhanced differently, either with respects to price (one more enhanced than the other), or for properties/materials.
I am not entirely sure about all this desperation over the monks position...but then again, I mostly only look towards sohei since they can grab brawling armor and dueling gloves to make up for any trouble with AoMF. Other than that, I would probably only look on a case by case basis for specific archetypes based on the build (tetori for grappling, maneuver master for maneuvers, etc). So I suppose I never quite understood the brunt of the learning curve towards good 'normal' monk making.
FWIW, I'm houseruling them back to the way they were in the APG. There's already no reason to use a Monk weapon anyway, and the Amulet of Mighty Fists is overpriced for a monk vs a dragon, so I just don't see the harm in giving the monk something good every so often.
But I also remember that they nerfed the Cestus and the Brass Knuckles a while back.
Eh. After they reduced the price, it was the same price as two similarly enhanced weapons. Since flurry works like TWF....it seems only fair. Troublesome, sure, since those weapons could be enhanced differently, either with respects to price (one more enhanced than the other), or for properties/materials.
Flurry works like TWF because Paizo inexplicably decided to ruin the flavor the ability and change it to that in the transition from 3.5, then it's used as justification for the obnoxious cost of the AMF and preventing Monks from getting an easy enhancement to their unarmed strike hit rate. Got to love that circle.
Yes, and that is obnoxious.
Flurry works like TWF because Paizo inexplicably decided to ruin the flavor the ability and change it to that in the transition from 3.5, then it's used as justification for the obnoxious cost of the AMF and preventing Monks from getting an easy enhancement to their unarmed strike hit rate. Got to love that circle.
Looking at it...until level 10, I am not seeing a lot of difference between 3.5 flurry and PF flurry when it comes to number of hits. After level 10, 3.5 got an extra hit at full BAB and somewhere along the line loses the -2 TWF penalties...but PF monks are treated as full BAB while flurrying, which still nets it an extra net 3 to hit. So mostly a mixed bag in terms of differences, and mostly just gets PF more power attack.
Overall, these differences don't really dispel the design idea that it is similar to TWF. You use a lot of smaller hits to get off damage. If it quacks like a duck, why not let it swim like a duck? Although, yes, as I admitted, AoMF is a bit more rigid than actual ducks. (Of course, archery also works on a similar principle, but just use one enhancement. But hey, archery has always been a bit unfair in the system, no?)
Of course, I never got into 3.5 itself, so I am unsure about what items and other support those monks may have had. Has all this commotion about cestus, brass knuckles and gauntlets been about how similar items worked in 3.5?
Who is using it? The Monk who is only getting to enhance one weapon with it? The Tengu Fighter who is enhancing 3 natural weapons with it? The Dragon who is enhancing 6 natural weapons with it? The Druid who might have a form with any number of attacks in between?
The pricing is obnoxious because it can go from paying double (for a Monk or, say, a Wolf Animal Companion) to being a super bargain.
The Monk has a class feature that is basically, "Hey you can TWF (a not very good fighting style) with a very limited selection of (generally) not very good weapons, but on the plus side you can do it with only one weapon if you want." And then the primary means of enchanting his primary weapon costs double, thus negating that advantage.
Even TWFers get to stagger their weapon upgrades, so they're at least getting a boost on their main hand attack earlier.
Well, a Monk can two hand a Temple Sword, and just Flurry with it.
If a Brawler Fighter two weapon fights with unarmed strikes, does he pay more, or less, than a Monk, for a AoMF?
More, some might say. A brawler does not have a means to cast barkskin on himself, so he suffers from the lack of amulet of natural armor.
Anyway, the complaint here seems to be about natural weapons and the staggering thing?
Well, a Monk can two hand a Temple Sword, and just Flurry with it.
If a Brawler Fighter two weapon fights with unarmed strikes, does he pay more, or less, than a Monk, for a AoMF?
Trick question, the Brawler Fighter is using Cesti because he isn't penalized for doing so.
If Flurry is supposed to be TWF'ing, then I demand an improved crit ratio for unarmed strikes like every other TWF'er has.
Well, a Monk can two hand a Temple Sword, and just Flurry with it.
If a Brawler Fighter two weapon fights with unarmed strikes, does he pay more, or less, than a Monk, for a AoMF?
Trick question, the Brawler Fighter is using Cesti because he isn't penalized for doing so.
If Flurry is supposed to be TWF'ing, then I demand an improved crit ratio for unarmed strikes like every other TWF'er has.
Eh, but there can be a lot of benefits to unarmed strikes other than how they are enhanced.
Monks, interestingly, have unique language with their unarmed strikes separate from flurry:
There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.
So, if I am not misreading this, no unarmed strike with this ability is 'offhand', and thus would get full power attack damage. A quick dip into monk to grab this, and you could be sporting some nice extra damage, as well as removing the need for double strike. That dip gives you a feat (with a rather unique benefit), removes the need for another, and it still lets you grab another bonus feat, plus a nice boost to saves in return for 1 BAB and a level of progression. Nice deal.
Also, we cannot discount how much the dragon style feats add in terms of damage. Getting 1.5x str damage on all attacks is rather nice (I usually try to grab a race with an SLA to get arcane strike to compliment power attack and make it 'almost' 1.5x as well, making each punch on par with a 2 handed sword blow.... but AS is hardly unique to unarmed strikes. Monks can also avoid the race thing since qinggong can let them grab an arcane SLA).
And a brawler is not restricted to 'no armor' either, since they could easily just grab normal TWF, so they can grab brawling armor. That is a straight untyped +2 to attack and damage right there that neither the cestus nor natural attacks can normally experience. This is one of the other reasons why I tend to love sohei, since they can also enjoy this benefit. And in many ways, they can do so better than the brawler (other than the 'cast barkskin to make AoNA useless' thing), since sohei can fall back on their ki strikes to get through DR (at least for silver/cold iron), meaning they do not necessarily need to strive to get that +3 AoMF, and invest in brawling armor and dueling gloves instead for a sweet +4 total untyped bonus.
Overall, there is a lot of support for unarmed strikes in the system outside of the way they are enhanced.
Well, a Monk can two hand a Temple Sword, and just Flurry with it.
If a Brawler Fighter two weapon fights with unarmed strikes, does he pay more, or less, than a Monk, for a AoMF?
Assuming that he doesn't just use a pair of cesti or brass knuckles?
He, like the Monk, is paying more than many natural attack users. Of course it's not a straight nerf to the Fighter's primary class features, so he's still got that going for him in choosing to use the AoMF.
The monk seems to have a ton of powers that do nothing.
Most would be solved if he had a class mechanic that upped his accuracy like every other front liner.
Well, flurry uses the monk's class level as BAB, which is why some combines flurry with power attack to pound down the enemy, especially those larger than medium creatures.