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Me and my GM got into a bit of an argument over the usage of this spell. Whatever consensus may be reached won't be affecting that (we came to a sort of compromise on how it will work), but I would like to know how it works exactly for future reference.
The wording of the spell is somewhat ambiguous, but I initially thought it was very clear. So did he.
This spell extracts the air from the target's lungs, causing swift suffocation.
The target can attempt to resist this spell's effects with a Fortitude save-if he succeeds, he is merely staggered for 1 round as he gasps for breath. If the target fails, he immediately begins to suffocate. On the target's next turn, he falls unconscious and is reduced to 0 hit points. One round later, the target drops to -1 hit points and is dying. One round after that, the target dies. Each round, the target can delay that round's effects from occurring by making a successful Fortitude save, but the spell continues for 3 rounds, and each time a target fails his Fortitude save, he moves one step further along the track to suffocation. This spell only affects living creatures that must breathe. It is impossible to defeat the effects of this spell by simply holding one's breath-if the victim fails the initial Saving Throw, the air in his lungs is extracted.
My reading: The target makes a Fortitude save. On success, he is Staggered for one round. On failure, he immediately falls unconscious and to 0 HP on his next turn. In round 2 of the spell, he must make another Fort save or proceed to -1 HP. In round 3, he must make another Fort save or die. If he makes the second save, he is still unconscious, and the third save will at most put him to -1. If he makes both subsequent saves, he is merely unconscious at 0 HP. The spell lasts no longer than 3 rounds.
His reading (or how I understood it after the fact, he may correct me if I'm wrong): The target makes the initial Fort save. If he succeeds he is Staggered. If he fails, he is Suffocating. On his next turn he makes a SECOND Fort save to avoid going unconscious and to 0 HP. If he fails, he is unconscious. If not, he remains standing until he fails a save. The duration of the spell is reset every time he succeeds. Essentially the duration is "permanent" (he keeps Suffocating until the spell is Dispelled or he begins failing saves), with the 3 round duration noting the minimum time it takes to kill if he fails all 4 saves (drawn from the line "Each round, the target can delay that round's effects from occurring by making a successful Fortitude save, but the spell continues for 3 rounds".)
I'll spoiler the compromise since people might be curious, but it's fairly irrelevant to the discussion.
So, how does it really work?
Imagine a track of effects that goes like this:
breathing(default)---->0hp/unconscious---->-1hp/dying---->dead
So for three rounds (the duration of the spell), the victim must succeed on a Fortitude save during the caster's turn or move along the track toward dead on the victim's turn. Since the spell only has a duration of three rounds, and the victim makes one save each round on the caster's turn, the victim will need to roll a total of three Fortitude saves:
Each round, the target can delay that round's effects from occurring by making a successful Fortitude save, but the spell continues for 3 rounds, and each time a target fails his Fortitude save, he moves one step further along the track to suffocation.
So here's a scenario:
Round 1:
Caster's turn: Caster casts Suffocate on victim. Victim makes fort save and is staggered for 1 round.
Victim's turn: Victim is staggered but can otherwise act.
Round 2:
Caster's turn: Victim fails fort save.
Victim's turn: Per the spell, victim falls unconscious and is at 0 hit points
Round 3:
Caster's turn: Victim fails fort save.
Victim's turn: Per the spell, victim is now reduced to -1 hit point and is now dying.
Round 4:
Spell has a 3 round duration and therefore expires immediately before the caster's turn. Victim does not need to make any more saves.
Another scenario:
Round 1:
Caster's turn: Caster casts Suffocate on victim. Victim fails fort save.
Victim's turn: Per the spell, victim falls unconscious and is at 0 hit points
Round 2:
Caster's turn: Victim makes the fort save.
Victim's turn: Per the spell, victim does not further move along the suffocating track toward death, and remains unconscious.
Round 3:
Caster's turn: Victim fails fort save.
Victim's turn: Per the spell, victim is now reduced to -1 hit point and is now dying.
Round 4:
Spell has a 3 round duration and therefore expires immediately before the caster's turn. Victim does not need to make any more saves.
Hope this clarifies things.
Look at the text for Mass Suffocation. It makes it clear that a 3 round duration means a 3 round duration, not 'permanent'.
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Suffocation
School necromancy; Level sorcerer/wizard 5, witch 5
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a vial containing a bit of the caster's breath)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one living creature
Duration 3 rounds
Saving Throw Fortitude partial; Spell Resistance yes
This spell extracts the air from the target's lungs, causing swift suffocation. The target can attempt to resist this spell's effects with a Fortitude save—if he succeeds, he is merely staggered for 1 round as he gasps for breath. If the target fails, he immediately begins to suffocate. On the target's next turn, he falls unconscious and is reduced to 0 hit points. One round later, the target drops to –1 hit points and is dying. One round after that, the target dies. Each round, the target can delay that round's effects from occurring by making a successful Fortitude save, but the spell effect continues for 3 rounds, and each time a target fails his Fortitude save, he moves one step further along the track to suffocation. This spell only affects living creatures that must breathe. It is impossible to defeat the effects of this spell by simply holding one's breath—if the victim fails the initial saving throw, the air in his lungs is extracted.
First, you need to look the whole spell.
It say "Duration 3 rounds", not special or some other thing, so it last 3 round, independently from the target making some save and delaying the effect.Second: "Saving Throw Fortitude partial", so saving don't protect you completely. So what happen?
"The target can attempt to resist this spell's effects with a Fortitude save—if he succeeds, he is merely staggered for 1 round as he gasps for breath."
If the target make the initial save he is staggered for 1 round and then the spell end.
If he fail the save "If the target fails, he immediately begins to suffocate. On the target's next turn, he falls unconscious and is reduced to 0 hit points." so he is immediately staggered and at the start of the target next turn he must make a new Saving Throw or fail unconscious. Not during the caster turn, the spell description is very clear about that. Even if he saves he remain staggered.
The target need to save again every round for 3 of his rounds to see if he become unconscious/dying or die, depending on how far he has advanced in the suffocating track.
Note: the spell don't say that explicitly, but I think that a creature that has failed the save against this spell is unable to speak or cast spell with verbal components.
For all other spells/SLA I would say that he is under the effect of a distracting spell, so casting them would require a concentration check of "Affected by a non-damaging spell while casting DC of the spell + spell level".
Nasty spell against spellcasting creatures that don't have a great fortitude saving throw.
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Total Duration is 3 rounds. The casting is the first round. The spell has an initial save, and then on a failed save a 2 more rounds duration with secondary saves and progressing conditions.
Scenario 1:
Caster casts spell. Victim Makes Save. Victim is staggered for one round and the spell ends.Scenario 2:
Round 1: Caster casts spell. Victim Fails Save. He moves to Step 1 on his turn and gets another save.Now, he is on this path.
Step 1: Unconscious 0hp,
Step 2: Dying -1hp,
Step 3: Dead.At the end of the targets third turn he dies, unless he makes any of the next 3 saves.
Duration rounds are tracked from the casters perspective, and last until right before his iniative. So, the target gets two saves the first "round", one on the casters turn, then one on his own.
Round 1:
Caster turn: Spell cast, victim fails initial save.
Victim Turn: Victim falls unconscious, rolls another save. Pass, on his next turn he stays at Step 1. Fails, on his next turn he moves to Step 2.Round 2:
Caster turn: Caster whatever.
Victim turn: He applies the results of the previous turn's save. Victim rolls another save. If he passes, he stays on his current step next turn. If he fails, he drops moves another step along.Round 3:
Caster turn: Caster whatever.
Victim Turn: Apply the results of previous turn's save. Roll another save. If you pass, stay on current step and spell ends. If you fail, and if at step 3, die. If at step 1 or 2, progress to next step, spell ends.Round 4:Spell ends before casters turn. Victim is in whatever Step he ended the last turn on, either 0hp or -1 dying, either way unconscious, or completely dead.
Each round, the target can delay that round's effects from occurring by making a successful Fortitude save, but the spell effect continues for 3 rounds, and each time a target fails his Fortitude save, he moves one step further along the track to suffocation.
The first round effect is going unconscious. You can delay that with a save during your round. Failing the save when the spell is cast don't change that.
Okay, so let me see if I'm understanding this correctly: the duration of the suffocate spell specifically states '3 rounds' and NOT instanteous + 3 rounds, and the saves are always made on the caster's turn. So it goes like this...
Round 1
Caster casts Suffocate
Target makes the save = target staggered on there next turn
OR
Target fails the save = goes unconscious
Round 2
On the caster's turn, the target makes their 2nd fortitude save
Target makes the save = target is staggered on their next turn/target remains unconscious (if they failed the previous save)
OR
Target fails the save = target drops to -1 hit points and starts dying
Round 3
On the caster's turn, the target makes their 3rd fortitude save
Target makes the save = target is staggered on their next turn/target remains unconcious (if they failed only one of the previous saves)/target continues dying (if it failed BOTH the previous saves)
Target fails the save = target dies
So in a nutshell, what some people seem to be suggesting is that this spell, AT THE VERY LEAST, guarentees 3 rounds of the staggered condition against its target (assuming that the target makes all 3 fortitude saves), or ends up knocking the target unconscious and/or killing them if they fail their saves.
I won't lie, that kinda seems a bit overpowered for a 5th level spell.
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Okay, so let me see if I'm understanding this correctly: the duration of the suffocate spell specifically states '3 rounds' and NOT instanteous + 3 rounds, and the saves are always made on the caster's turn. So it goes like this...
Round 1
Caster casts Suffocate
Target makes the save = target staggered on there next turn
OR
Target fails the save = goes unconsciousRound 2
On the caster's turn, the target makes their 2nd fortitude save
Target makes the save = target is staggered on their next turn/target remains unconscious (if they failed the previous save)
OR
Target fails the save = target drops to -1 hit points and starts dyingRound 3
On the caster's turn, the target makes their 3rd fortitude save
Target makes the save = target is staggered on their next turn/target remains unconcious (if they failed only one of the previous saves)/target continues dying (if it failed BOTH the previous saves)
Target fails the save = target diesSo in a nutshell, what some people seem to be suggesting is that this spell, AT THE VERY LEAST, guarentees 3 rounds of the staggered condition against its target (assuming that the target makes all 3 fortitude saves), or ends up knocking the target unconscious and/or killing them if they fail their saves.
I won't lie, that kinda seems a bit overpowered for a 5th level spell.
If the target save against the initial casting of the spell he is staggered fro 1 turn. End of the effect.
If the target fails, he immediately begins to suffocate. On the target's next turn, he falls unconscious and is reduced to 0 hit points.
and
Each round, the target can delay that round's effects from occurring by making a successful Fortitude save, but the spell effect continues for 3 rounds, and each time a target fails his Fortitude save, he moves one step further along the track to suffocation.
If the target fail his initial save the effect happen in the target turn, and he get a save to delay the effect till his next turn.
So
Caster turn:
a) the target make his save - he is staggered till the start of the caster next turn
b) the target fail his save, it is staggered till the end of the spell.
b1) Target turn 1. He get to roll a new saving throw to delay the effect (i.e. the unconsciousness)
b2) Target 2nd turn. Same as above, if he has failed the ST during his first round he start dying.
b3) Target 3nd turn. Same as above, if he has failed his saves during b1 and b2 he save not to die.
If he has failed only one he save against dropping to -1 hp.
If he missed none he save against going unconscious.
Suffocation isn''t a Save and suck or Fail and Die (because being unconscious is equivalent to being dead).
It is a Save and suck or Fail and be in very dire straits.
Compare it with other 5th level wizard spells: none instantly kills a target on a single failed ST with the exception of cloudkill, that instantly kills only creatures with a low number of HD.
Even dominate give the target a second St if you give him suicidal commands.
Personally I think paralysis (ala Hold Monster, another 5th level spell) is also equivalent to death, so there is at least a spell that has a similar effect, and Dominate still instantly puts you out of the combat (just tell the affected individual to sit in a corner and be in timeout or something). Both target Will, generally a weaker save.
I am a bit confused as to why the victim gets a second save before falling unconscious. The way I read it it's just like any other spell. Save vs effect (effect in this case being unconsciousness starting on target's next turn).
Round 2 triggers the save vs going to -1, and round 3 forces the save vs death.
Is there a magic rule I'm missing that explains why he gets the second save on his turn? Keep in mind I'm looking for the bog standard RAW working of this spell, not reasonable adjustments to its power (which I already have hashed out with my GM).
Also, Persistent metamagic. Applies to all saves, or just the initial save? I didn't even think about this during the session but that could have been the difference between life and death for that Monk.
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Personally I think paralysis (ala Hold Monster, another 5th level spell) is also equivalent to death, so there is at least a spell that has a similar effect, and Dominate still instantly puts you out of the combat (just tell the affected individual to sit in a corner and be in timeout or something). Both target Will, generally a weaker save.
It don't put you out with a single failed save. if you fail your save against the casting of the spell you get to roll as second save during your turn as a full round action.
With the interpretation of Suffocate that say that go unconsciousness if you fail the initial save you are essentially dead with a single failed save even against a single opponent, with Hold monster you need to fail 2 saves to be at the mercy of an opponent.
Then you should consider that Suffocation has an effect even if you save. That alone should bump the spell level by 1.
I am a bit confused as to why the victim gets a second save before falling unconscious. The way I read it it's just like any other spell. Save vs effect (effect in this case being unconsciousness starting on target's next turn).
Read the spell. The sequence is clear. Save to be affected + saves to delay the effect.
Round 2 triggers the save vs going to -1, and round 3 forces the save vs death.Is there a magic rule I'm missing that explains why he gets the second save on his turn? Keep in mind I'm looking for the bog standard RAW working of this spell, not reasonable adjustments to its power (which I already have hashed out with my GM).
Each round, the target can delay that round's effects from occurring by making a successful Fortitude save, but the spell effect continues for 3 rounds, and each time a target fails his Fortitude save, he moves one step further along the track to suffocation.
More RAW that that?
Also, Persistent metamagic. Applies to all saves, or just the initial save? I didn't even think about this during the session but that could have been the difference between life and death for that Monk.
Benefit: Whenever a creature targeted by a persistent spell or within its area succeeds on its saving throw against the spell, it must make another saving throw against the effect.
Again, read the Suffocation quote above. You save to delay the effect. Persistent force you to make a second save against the spell effect. It applies.
The problem is that the RAW is a bit unclear there if it's truly meant to do as you say. "Each round" he gets a save, yes. But when I cast the spell and he saved against it, that was all part of the same round.
"Turn" and "round" are distinct in the PF ruleset. A Turn is the actions of one person. A Round is the collective actions of all combat participants.
So, I cast the spell. He saves, and fails. His turn is directly after mine. Still the same round.
Why does he save twice? I figure Hold Monster worked the same way, by the by.
You know I finished typing that out and then it kinda clicked, nevermind. He saved versus the spell taking hold, and failed, but the EFFECTS have not happened yet despite the failed save, so he can try that same round to delay them. Gotcha.
I was conflating the two things (spell taking hold and spell having an effect) when it seems I should not have.