Goblin Squad Member
|
So, I have long avoided getting into MMORPGs because I have been of the opinion that if I am going to pay $40-60 for a game, I shouldn't have to KEEP paying to play that game. Especially because my playing time is generally limited, job, wife, tabletop, etc. I am lucky if I get 2-3 hours of playing time a week, and it has just never made sense to pay $12-15 per month for that time.
I also generally don't like the people in MMORPGs, every time I have looked over the should of someone playing in one, it is generally just a bunch of shouting and arm-waving and people speaking rudely to each other.
PFO might change that for me, but I have a few questions.
Do I have to buy two copies of the game AND two subscriptions if I want to play with my wife, or can I buy one copy and two subscriptions?
Better yet, can we simply buy subscriptions, download/install the game for free, and start playing? I don't need a DVD that I am just going to lose or scratch anyway. I definitely don't need TWO of them.
If we know that we aren't going to be able to play for a while, can we put our subscription on hold and come back to our characters in, say, two months time when we are back in country? or will our characters disappear?
Everything I read seems to indicate that PvP is going to happen, and there will be zones where I am likely to be waylaid by some other player. The first time my level 4 self gets murdered by a level 12 jerkwad in this game will be the last time you get any of my money, so how do I or you go about making sure that I can get the most out of this game and visit all the neat parts of the world without feeling like there are just dickheads out there waiting to murder newbies? Seriously, PvP is one of the primary reasons I never played MMORPGs, there are plenty of bullies, thieves, and general wankers in real life that I don't want to associate with, why would I pay you to play in a game with those same people? I WANT to be convinced this will be fun.
How much of this game will be playable by someone with a generally isolationist mindset? I know there is supposed to be a mechanic for economics and the requirement of trade with other communities and whatnot for supplies, but what if I just want to go kill a dragon? Is this game going to be playable at all in single-player (or two- to three-player) mode?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hi, Zandari. I'll try to answer some of your questions but want to make it clear these aren't official answers.
Do I have to buy two copies of the game AND two subscriptions if I want to play with my wife, or can I buy one copy and two subscriptions?
I think you'll both be able to play on the same account, but that might turn out to be against the terms. Since Goblinworks is going to be getting a subscription for two characters, I can't imagine whey they'd need to block you from letting your wife play one of them.
If we know that we aren't going to be able to play for a while, can we put our subscription on hold and come back to our characters in, say, two months time when we are back in country? or will our characters disappear?
PFO's payment model is almost tailor-made for this kind of scenario. The subscription is actually what gives your character(s) experience points to spend on skills and such, not just access to the game. So, if you buy a month of Training (via subscription or in the cash shop), you don't "lose" half of that if you then go out of the country after two weeks. When you come back, your character will have still earned those extra two weeks of experience.
I recommend you at read at least the first posts by Ryan Dancey in each of these threads:
Kickstarter Community Thread: Subscriptions & Microtransactions
Kickstarter Community Thread: Player vs. Player Conflict
A couple of comments about PvP / Griefing
And if you haven't seen it before, you might find this useful:
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hi Zandari.
Many of the specifics of PFO are still to be determined, but we have some information from the goblinworks blog and statements of intent from the developers.
The answer to a lot of your gameplay questions is "it depends on what your gameplay objectives are."
In most areas beyond the starting hexes, there will be a risk of death. That danger might be from other players, or it might be from monsters.
Can you "visit all the neat parts of the world" without risking your character being killed?
No, however you can mitigate a lot of the risk by making smart travel choices (don't wander into war zones, don't carry stuff you can't afford to lose).
Will the game be enjoyable solo? Well, a lot of the game is designed for social interaction, and a lot of your character's power will come from his social connections. If your game goals involve being a important or powerful character, then no, you won't be successful solo. If you just want to wander around, and aren't concerned about amassing wealth or status, then yes, the game should be enjoyable solo.
You mentioned that being killed by a more powerful player would be a dealbreaker for you. Do you feel the same way about being killed by a more powerful computer-generated opponent?
Because you won't be killing dragons on the first day... if you blunder unprepared into something that significantly outclasses you in combat power, your character is likely to die. Does it make a difference to you if that "something" is controlled by another player instead of by a computer?
I hope you give the game a try once it comes out, but keep in mind that you might have to adjust your game goals and tolerance for character death to have an enjoyable experience.
|
CEO, Goblinworks
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Do I have to buy two copies of the game AND two subscriptions if I want to play with my wife, or can I buy one copy and two subscriptions?
You will need one copy of the game for each player. However, I should note that currently that costs $35, and includes a month of game time. That purchase will enable you to play when Open Enrollment begins, and that will not be for a couple of years.
Currently, if you want to play in Early Enrollment, which will begin this year, the price is $100, but that package includes 3 months of game time.
These options are explained in more detail on the store page of goblinworks.com
I don't need a DVD that I am just going to lose or scratch anyway. I definitely don't need TWO of them.
Barring some future promotional releases, we don't expect to make physical game boxes or discs. You'll download the client directly from us.
If we know that we aren't going to be able to play for a while, can we put our subscription on hold and come back to our characters in, say, two months time when we are back in country? or will our characters disappear?
You can elect to use your game time at any point - you don't have to use it when you purchase. In Early Enrollment, when you do not have game time, you will not be able to log in. Your characters will not be removed from the database, but they will not be gaining XP.
You will be able to buy game time ala carte, or by subscription. We don't plan to enable you to turn on and off your use of game time - so once you activate a month's game time, you will not be able to decide to save the final two weeks for later use. When we sell you multiple months of game time you'll get multiple game time codes in monthly increments - you won't have to use all 3 months of your Early Enrollment time in a row if you don't want to.
Everything I read seems to indicate that PvP is going to happen, and there will be zones where I am likely to be waylaid by some other player. The first time my level 4 self gets murdered by a level 12 jerkwad in this game will be the last time you get any of my money
I understand your concerns. However you should know that you are likely to face this problem soon after you start playing.
Interplayer conflict is at the heart of our game design. Getting killed by another player is going to happen early, and often. For some folks, any time that happens is too much and we respect that.
I hope that if you give the game a chance you'll find that the risks of being attacked by other characters are worth the rewards for taking part in a challenging and meaningful experience. Death in Pathfinder Online is not a catastrophic event, it's just a minor setback. And we're going to work very hard to provide disincentives to behave badly - your character may be attacked and killed, but our long term goal is to make the reasons for that attack meaningful in the larger context of the struggle for control of territory in the game.
How much of this game will be playable by someone with a generally isolationist mindset?
This is the area where I think there's the largest challenge for you. The first "M" in MMO is "Massively", and the second "M" is "Multiplayer".
This is not a single-player game where you occasionally interact with another person. This is a game where meaningful interaction is the heart of the game design. You won't be able to do much that is meaningful or interesting by yourself. You'll have to find friends in-game and work as a team to achieve success - just like the tabletop experience.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Everything I read seems to indicate that PvP is going to happen, and there will be zones where I am likely to be waylaid by some other player. The first time my level 4 self gets murdered by a level 12 jerkwad in this game will be the last time you get any of my moneyI understand your concerns. However you should know that you are likely to face this problem soon after you start playing. Interplayer conflict is at the heart of our game design. Getting killed by another player is going to happen early, and often. For some folks, any time that happens is too much and we respect that.
I hope that if you give the game a chance you'll find that the risks of being attacked by other characters are worth the rewards for taking part in a challenging and meaningful experience. Death in Pathfinder Online is not a catastrophic event, it's just a minor setback. And we're going to work very hard to provide disincentives to behave badly - your character may be attacked and killed, but our long term goal is to make the reasons for that attack meaningful in the larger context of the struggle for control of territory in the game.
How much of this game will be playable by someone with a generally isolationist mindset?This is the area where I think there's the largest challenge for you. The first "M" in MMO is "Massively", and the second "M" is "Multiplayer".
This is not a single-player game where you occasionally interact with another person. This is a game where meaningful interaction is the heart of the game design. You won't be able to do much that is meaningful or interesting by yourself. You'll have to find friends in-game and work as a team to achieve success - just like the tabletop experience.
I'm glad Ryan said it and I didn't, I can only imagine the reaction I would have gotten.
However, concerning the issue of solo play. I'm thinking you are perhaps over stating the threat that other players might pose to a solo character of limited power and or valuable gear.
I and my group are probably the most outspoken and aggressive PvP oriented members on these forums, and we plan to be in game as well, and yet low value targets will have very little to fear from us in game.
I have often written, "Meaningful Reasons for PvP" are more important than "Meaningful Consequences for PvP."
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I'm glad Ryan said it and I didn't, I can only imagine the reaction I would have gotten.
I see what you mean. There is little agreement when pointing out similar things (myself) in other threads.
@ Zandari
The fact that this will possibly (most likely) be a similar game to others, as far as PVP goes is true. There will be some differences though.
1. Hopefully there will be real, meaningful consequences for random PVP.
2. I think it is the intent of the developers that we get a bit involved in it through wanting to be a part of a player community/company/group and help defend or expand it.
3. Actual PVE will be fairly limited (in comparison to other MMOs) in PfO, and the bonds that we form (playing with other people) will possibly make the game enjoyable and interesting much longer than a typical MMO. We usually burn through static content very quickly as a customer base. :)
In other PVP style games you also have the ability to band together for protection. My experience in those games (limited) has not shown me that it is done all that much for some reason. Sure the roving "kill bands" group and roam at will, but the merchants and gatherers usually just run for it and pray. I am hopeful that the Early Enrollees can establish a culture where it is SOP (to band together) and that it will be more fun than anything I have previously been involved in (game wise).
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
In other PVP style games you also have the ability to band together for protection. My experience in those games (limited) has not shown me that it is done all that much for some reason. Sure the roving "kill bands" group and roam at will, but the merchants and gatherers usually just run for it and pray. I am hopeful that the Early Enrollees can establish a culture where it is SOP (to band together) and that it will be more fun than anything I have previously been involved in (game wise).
Merchants and gatherers don't band together because they are too F'ng greedy and don't want to feel obligated to split their profits.
They'd rather cross their fingers and hope they don't get caught, and when they do, they make a break for it. When they get slaughtered, they don't hire protection the next time around. Instead, they just complain about how they got ganked and how the game is a murder sim.
Burn Jita is coming up later this month. Everyone will know the exact date, soon enough. Wait until after the event, and then read the EvE Boards as they cry about it. I will bet isk on it, some moron will fly into there with a load of 10+ Plex and then cry that he got suicide ganked and lost $200.00 of real money.
LOL!
I know you get it Bringslite, as do many others. It is just most are pretty silent about getting it. I know some are holding back their comments, just to watch the awakening in OE with a morbid fascination.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Interplayer conflict is at the heart of our game design. Getting killed by another player is going to happen early, and often.
Ryan, I'm a little confused about the message you're trying to send.
My thesis is that a bright, simple, clear guideline is needed to help people make good choices ("good" defined as "generating results that are generally in-line with my expectations and desires")
A second thesis is that a lot of people will come to Pathfinder Online with two incorrect preconceptions about the way the game is played. Those two preconceptions are:
1: Open World PvP implies a murder simulator
2: Killing early, often, and without discrimination is the route to long-term success
These two preconceptions mutually reinforce each other. If #2 is true, #1 is inevitable. This is the trap that game after game after game fell into. (Sometimes they didn't "fall" into it as much as they embraced it as a design paradigm on purpose.)
We are going to break this pattern and we are going to redefine those preconceptions. In order to do that we must repeatedly and powerfully shock the system. One of those shocks is a negative feedback loop that links random killing to gimping character development.
Can you help me try to reconcile these?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Merchants and gatherers don't band together because they are too F'ng greedy and don't want to feel obligated to split their profits.
They'd rather cross their fingers and hope they don't get caught, and when they do, they make a break for it. When they get slaughtered, they don't hire protection the next time around. Instead, they just complain about how they got ganked and how the game is a murder sim.
Some of those will repeat the same behavior. At least for a bit if it works more often than not. I have a feeling, because of certain differences in PfO (that we see and admittedly speculate upon), that won't work as well here. Really though, it all depends on how things play out when all of the factors start working together.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@Nihimon, both of these statements can certainly be true if: getting killed early and often will happen, and the people (players? characters?) who succeed long-term won't be those who killed others early and often and without discrimination.
That is why I would love to see the reputation counter "up and running" from day one. Whether the consequences are "up and running" or have to be "pending" for design time sacrifice.
Teach the lesson as early as possible and as sternly as possible.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I expect merchants and gathers will band together a little better here than elsewhere. You're often going to be gathering in your settlement space, so management will say where to gather, based on what is needed. Mother-lodes will also teach players that they need to be gathering as a group to really harness the big scores. Finally, settlement PvP patrols might be interested in having gatherers somewhat clustered in order to better defend them (see above, management directing where to harvest).
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Ryan explains (reconciles) it here: "your character may be attacked and killed, but our long term goal is to make the reasons for that attack meaningful in the larger context of the struggle for control of territory in the game."
I have written this over and over again. Meaningful Reasons to PvP! In many of the other MMOs, there are no reasons to PvP. Most don't have a significant death penalty or a death penalty at all. Not so in PFO. At least your death will create some demand fir replacement gear. Your death might also send you far off from the present field of battle.
There are also other causes to fight for. You may kill another for your company, settlement, kingdom, faction or Diety. You may kill them for some professional obligation (contract) as a bounty hunter, mercenary or assassin. You may kill them to stay off your land, or to clear them away from land your company, settlement or kingdom wish to gain control of. You may kill them to secure resources or out of greed as a bandit or raider.
All of these have a meaningful reason to engage in PvP. Most if not all of these advance the fulfillment of needs of something greater than the individual. PFO is a PvP game, but unlike most others, it is one that stresses a purpose held by many and not just the one.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I am wondering at this aspect of the play... Obviously, there will be a whole new paradigm in that working in cooperation with your company/settlement will be more of a factor than it has been in many previous games.
How will that play out?
How long will it take for the player base to think and play more in terms of "WE" than "ME"?
Will it go over well?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I am wondering at this aspect of the play... Obviously, there will be a whole new paradigm in that working in cooperation with your company/settlement will be more of a factor than it has been in many previous games.
How will that play out?
How long will it take for the player base to think and play more in terms of "WE" than "ME"?
Will it go over well?
To be honest, I don't think very long at all, but if they don't get it by the end of that first month (free one), then prepare to see the drop off.
I like many others here have spent years playing MMOs. Almost all of them are very solo friendly. Even the sandbox MMOs were or are very solo friendly. Thus seems to be something GW wants to change in PFO.
According to Ryan, the greatest threat in traveling solo is other players attacking you. That however depends on two things. The attackers' willingness to do it, potentially with reputation loss or their ability to avoid reputation loss. There is a third possibility, but I don't want anyone's hair to catch on fire, so I'll keep it to myself.
So if anything needs to be reconciled, it is that. How is solo play made prohibitively dangerous? How is that done without losing reputation? I would also add my own hurdle, how do you convince me to be more bloodthirsty than I am inclined to be and make me comfortable in attacking a solo target with little value?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I have a character concept that would be something like Judi Dench in The Chronicles of Riddick: Going around as some sort of Diplomat - possibly with vast reserves available for bounties should these duties be interrupted... though in all honesty I think I'm too hot-headed to be a good diplomat, it's really the threat of a large bounty and "diplomatic immunity" to swan around using diplomatic passport across borders, that does it for me. :p
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I have a character concept that would be something like Judi Dench in The Chronicles of Riddick: Going around as some sort of Diplomat - possibly with vast reserves available for bounties should these duties be interrupted... though in all honesty I think I'm too hot-headed to be a good diplomat, it's really the threat of a large bounty and "diplomatic immunity" to swan around using diplomatic passport across borders, that does it for me. :p
My solo character concept is molded after Kwai Chang Caine (Kung Fu TV series) who I intend to be a Lawful Good Monk who travels the River Kingdoms and heals / protects anyone in need.
I will train him in gathering (herbs) and crafting (healing salves and other remedies) and then search for injured players to aid. This is why I was so glad to here about the pre-death state as a feature.
Unlike Ryan, I believe that this type of character may have an easier time surviving solo because he would not be carrying great wealth. More importantly, he may be seen as universally beneficial as long as he heals those in need, regardless of any of their labels ( Name, company, settlement, kingdom, faction, Deity, alignment, reputation level, etc).
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@Nihimon, both of these statements can certainly be true if: getting killed early and often will happen, and the people (players? characters?) who succeed long-term won't be those who killed others early and often and without discrimination.
This is the part I'm struggling with.
If Ryan intends to "repeatedly and powerfully shock the system" in order to "break this pattern", wouldn't you expect that pattern to, you know, be broken?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@Nihimon, from your quote above:
In order to do that we must repeatedly and powerfully shock the system. One of those shocks is a negative feedback loop that links random killing to gimping character development.
If Brighthaven/TEO has a group harvesting nodes in a skymetal hex, those harvesters might be getting some good wealth. A competing settlement or company might enter into PvP legitimately, and the two groups might kill each other early and often. This is fine, working as intended.
Joe Dirt the Ragman and his party of ragpickers might enter the hex and try to kill and steal from the harvesters. If they keep coming back, any 'unsanctioned' attacks are going to drive down the ragpickers' Rep. This will disadvantage those characters as well as putting them into a 'practically free to attack' status.
So yes, I'd hazard that the rep loss mechanic, as well as other shocks, may well change the pattern.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@Nihimon, from your quote above:
In order to do that we must repeatedly and powerfully shock the system. One of those shocks is a negative feedback loop that links random killing to gimping character development.If Brighthaven/TEO has a group harvesting nodes in a skymetal hex, those harvesters might be getting some good wealth. A competing settlement or company might enter into PvP legitimately, and the two groups might kill each other early and often. This is fine, working as intended.
Joe Dirt the Ragman and his party of ragpickers might enter the hex and try to kill and steal from the harvesters. If they keep coming back, the 'unsanctioned' attacks are going to drive down the ragpickers' Rep. This will disadvantage those characters as well as putting them into a 'practically free to attack' status.
So yes, I'd hazard that the rep loss mechanic, as well as other shocks, may well change the pattern.
Why isn't Joe Dirt and his company a legitimate competitor for that same wealth?
Joe Dirt and his band of Rags, are just as likely to use SADs, Feuds or Faction to attack "early and often" for no reputation loss. This too is working as intended.
The part Nihimon seems to be struggling with is that he is attributing "indiscriminate" to an attack that is motivated based on the harvester's actions of mining high value resources.
Merely participating in harvesting / mining and then transporting those resources is the willful participation in the broader Settlement based PVP conflict.
You have to spend the "Millions for Defense" or prepare to be killed because you refused to pay the "One Copper in Tribute". I know that sounded like a witty comment when you first made it, but now that you see you might actually have to pay for that defense, you seem to be concerned and falling back on the "where is the game mechanic to help me?"
Merchants and gatherers don't band together because they are too F'ng greedy and don't want to feel obligated to split their profits.
They'd rather cross their fingers and hope they don't get caught, and when they do, they make a break for it. When they get slaughtered, they don't hire protection the next time around. Instead, they just complain about how they got ganked and how the game is a murder sim.
I have seen this time, and time, and time again... In virtually every MMO with open world PVP.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I have a character concept that would be something like Judi Dench in The Chronicles of Riddick: Going around as some sort of Diplomat - possibly with vast reserves available for bounties should these duties be interrupted... though in all honesty I think I'm too hot-headed to be a good diplomat, it's really the threat of a large bounty and "diplomatic immunity" to swan around using diplomatic passport across borders, that does it for me. :pMy solo character concept is molded after Kwai Chang Caine (Kung Fu TV series) who I intend to be a Lawful Good Monk who travels the River Kingdoms and heals / protects anyone in need.
I will train him in gathering (herbs) and crafting (healing salves and other remedies) and then search for injured players to aid. This is why I was so glad to here about the pre-death state as a feature.
Unlike Ryan, I believe that this type of character may have an easier time surviving solo because he would not be carrying great wealth. More importantly, he may be seen as universally beneficial as long as he heals those in need, regardless of any of their labels ( Name, company, settlement, kingdom, faction, Deity, alignment, reputation level, etc).
Although I have almost always been a solo (mostly) guy in MMOs, I don't think that I will be in PfO. There are too many "suggested" ways that you can be made into a legit target. The dynamics (local markets, mundane travel, high per hex population) point to the best way to deal with it, as to "opt in" to the system (company, faction, friends, strength in numbers) rather than try to get around it in the old ways.
Solo might work if you can establish a meta rep as a traveling healer, or someone known to never have much of value. I have my reservations about that, as I foresee that we will have our 1-5% er's that use S&D on everyone or care less about their rep score and get bored quickly without "victims".
Yet like all things, nothing can be known for sure until the clients hit the mechanics and player environment....
Edit: And yes that will mean "millions for defense". Either for myself, or for my kingdom if I choose to go the socialist "worker bee" route.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Why isn't Joe Dirt and his company a legitimate competitor for that same wealth?
Joe Dirt and his band of Rags, are just as likely to use SADs, Feuds or Faction to attack "early and often" for no reputation loss. This too is working as intended.
Joe Dirt and his party of ragpickers are legitimate competition and can harvest just as well as the TEO lads.
They may or may not have the ability to use any of those methods. If they don't, then what do they do?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Joe Dirt and his party of ragpickers are legitimate competition and can harvest just as well as the TEO lads.
SAD - we're pretty sure it won't be available at the start; once it's in it has side effects like a long-running Criminal flag.
Faction - only works if the TEO harvesters are flagged faction enemies.
Feud - Sure, they can feud if they belong to a company and the company has sufficient Influence and company leadership authorize the feud. You gets to pick your battles. They may or may not have the ability to use any of those methods. If they don't, then what do they do?
* Harvesting is not the only legitimate counter act to harvesting.
* Assuming that the use of caravans is not tied to faction, then maybe faction won't work.
* Joe Dirt and his band of Rags, sounds like a company to me. Joe Dirt is the leader, and would definitely see the value in expending influence to feud a company unearthing a mother load of sky metal.
* If all else fails, than Joe Dirt and his Rags take the rep hit, but focus their attacks on targets they are sure to defeat, so as the rewards off set the loss of rep. Joe Dirt and his Rags might have a few "Monsters in the Basement" for just this sort of situation.
* Joe Dirt could also put a /shout out for other bandit companies that do have the influence and he can join in with them and share in the spoils.
This last point is a major and new policy for the UNC. The UnNamed Company... "Lets No Bandit Raid Alone!"
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If Brighthaven/TEO has a group harvesting nodes in a skymetal hex, those harvesters might be getting some good wealth. A competing settlement or company might enter into PvP legitimately, and the two groups might kill each other early and often. This is fine, working as intended.
I don't see that as the likely scenario Zandari was concerned about.
The first time my level 4 self gets murdered by a level 12 jerkwad in this game...
This sounds to me more like the concern of a "New Player trying to learn the game" being killed by a character at the "Heroic Adventurer" power level who gains nothing from it but the joy of tears and rage. To respond to that concern with "you will be killed early and often, get used to it" seems out of place to me. I would have expected something more along the lines of "the more risk you take, the more reward you'll receive, but if you deliberately play to minimize your risk, you should experience significantly less random player killing in PFO than you should expect in most other Open PvP games".
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The part Nihimon seems to be struggling with is that he is attributing "indiscriminate" to an attack that is motivated based on the harvester's actions of mining high value resources.
It should be obvious to you and everyone else by now that you do not have an accurate sense of the things that motivate me. You're dead wrong in this case, and it's near-contemptible of you to suggest that given what I've already said in direct conversations with you.
If you're going into an area with valuable resources, you should expect that others will want to secure those resources for themselves and might be willing to kill you for them.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You have to spend the "Millions for Defense" or prepare to be killed because you refused to pay the "One Copper in Tribute". I know that sounded like a witty comment when you first made it, but now that you see you might actually have to pay for that defense, you seem to be concerned and falling back on the "where is the game mechanic to help me?"
Do you seriously not get that "Millions for Defense, Not One Copper in Tribute" is a challenge directly to folks like you? I want you to come and try to take my stuff. I relish the opportunity to fight you for it. It's the same reason I keep advocating for game systems to protect you when you try to live the life of a Bandit. Hypocrite.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@Nihimon, I think that Ryan has to manage expectations to some degree.
I understand your concerns. However you should know that you are likely to face this problem soon after you start playing.
Interplayer conflict is at the heart of our game design. Getting killed by another player is going to happen early, and often. For some folks, any time that happens is too much and we respect that.
I hope that if you give the game a chance you'll find that the risks of being attacked by other characters are worth the rewards for taking part in a challenging and meaningful experience. Death in Pathfinder Online is not a catastrophic event, it's just a minor setback. And we're going to work very hard to provide disincentives to behave badly - your character may be attacked and killed, but our long term goal is to make the reasons for that attack meaningful in the larger context of the struggle for control of territory in the game.
Does he say more risk = more reward, yes. Does he say you can minimize risk (and reward) to have significantly less chance of a random PK, no - but he can't guarantee that. To some degree it's up to the players to set that environment.
In Bluddwolf's reply to my rag-picker party examples, he had to turn the example party into a company and assume factional warfare, Influence for feuds, and SAD capabilities were readily available. I think that suggests that random PK by pick-up parties may be less likely than in other games, if robbers are pushed into organized companies. (edited)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
If Brighthaven/TEO has a group harvesting nodes in a skymetal hex, those harvesters might be getting some good wealth. A competing settlement or company might enter into PvP legitimately, and the two groups might kill each other early and often. This is fine, working as intended.I don't see that as the likely scenario Zandari was concerned about.
The first time my level 4 self gets murdered by a level 12 jerkwad in this game...This sounds to me more like the concern of a "New Player trying to learn the game" being killed by a character at the "Heroic Adventurer" power level who gains nothing from it but the joy of tears and rage. To respond to that concern with "you will be killed early and often, get used to it" seems out of place to me. I would have expected something more along the lines of "the more risk you take, the more reward you'll receive, but if you deliberately play to minimize your risk, you should experience significantly less random player killing in PFO than you should expect in most other Open PvP games".
Ryan said something about the way mmorpgs evolved was that death just became a common thing. Hence it seems what's being said is that combat and winning or losing and therefore dying at the hands of other players is just one of the norms. In fact combat as we all know is a big part of interaction and fun:
[...] You need to think about other players as being a part of the world just like wandering monsters. They're predators, and if you venture out alone you're the prey.
Massively Multiplayer games gain value and become a unique and distinctive kind of experience when they maximize human interaction. There are lots of ways to play sword & sorcery games by oneself. MMOs are not designed for that kind of experience. If you want an MMO where you don't have to worry about being attacked by other players that's what most theme park games have specialized in.
Pathfinder Online's sandbox design means that interactions with other players, sometimes via combat, will be an ever-present part of the experience.
There will be characters who will go alone into the wilderness to explore. Those explorers will always be in danger. That danger will often come from the knowledge that if they are detected by other players, they're probably going to die. But if the rewards for solo exploration are sufficient (both qualitative and quantitative), people will do it. I think those rewards will be sufficient.
I think the risk vs reward then kicks in with:
In EVE, since everything is disposable, you are warned to "only fly what you can afford to lose". This is a very tough rule to learn for people who are used to MMOs where dying is a time-sink, not a resource-sink. It takes some people quite a while to figure out that if they have 1,000 dollars, buying a 1,000 dollar ship is a huge mistake. They should buy ten 100 dollar ships instead, and expect to lose all of them - which is OK, as long as while losing them they make the equivalent of at least 1,000 dollars.
Thus it's OK that there is a continuum of quality in very fine-grained increments for most things. Because you don't just buy "the best" thing when you can - that's foolish. Instead you have to constantly make a calculation about risk - how much can I afford to risk on this ship/ship fitting, vs. how much reward do I expect to gain while I use it?
Once you figure out how to calculate "afford to lose", EVE becomes a game that makes a lot more sense.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@ Zandari
At base, my hope/expectation is that the kind of player that does the things which you described will have a difficult time of getting to any significant level of skill and power compared to those that play in the "preferred way".
He may not be an easy fight for players way below his level, but I am hoping that he will be an easy and frequent target for those "good guys" (or preferred play style ppl) that are around his level. We have to count on this discouraging him and making him leave or change his ways...
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think it's just the order of propositions, and those being conflated by statements:
The first time my level 4 self gets murdered by a level 12 jerkwad in this game will be the last time you get any of my money, so how do I or you go about making sure that I can get the most out of this game and visit all the neat parts of the world without feeling like there are just d@$%$eads out there waiting to murder newbies?
1. Do you mind dying by a mob?
2. Do you mind dying if the mob is actually another player but it was fair combat and fun?3. Do you mind if you lose something when you die as a result of 2.?
4. Do you mind if you die and were not expecting it but reflecting it was a fair combat even if a bit less fun losing stuff and being out-smarted?
5. Do you mind if dying to other players is fairly regular if your group is at war and "anything goes" is therefore allowed?
I don't really know where a player might find it acceptable or where the line is drawn. I also think experiences of other mmorpgs colour the above and that further makes it impossible to tell what a player is really asking and what they'll tolerate or expect they'll tolerate which might both be mis-aligned.
I certainly think: There's incentive to combat other players under a good number of given conditions as there are not to combat other players under other conditions (I'm going to lose or I'm going to lose reputatation etc).
Battling over that map sure looks like a lot of fun to me however just as securing all the resources of a hex and maximizing extraction without a drop of blood spilt does too knowing the alternative conditions!
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I understand that Ryan has a lot more experience than I do in crafting messages for mass audiences, and I wasn't trying to call him out. I was hoping he would simply expound on the matter a little bit more and help me reconcile what I recognized as my own failure to understand.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@ Nihimon,
If you are talking about your support for SADs, Faction and Feuds as a means for players to play the role of bandits, that is really just setting the mark back to zero.
The "Negative Feedback Loop" is like setting the price for an item at +20%.
Then a few months later SADS, Faction and Feuds, provide a 20% discount.
The SADS, Feuds and faction don't allow me to play the role of bandit. They are just gating abilities that allow me to play the role without reputation cost.
However, as Urman noted above: {quote="Urman"]In Bluddwolf's reply to my rag-picker party examples, he had to turn the example party into a company and assume factional warfare, Influence for feuds, and SAD capabilities were readily available. I think that suggests that random PK by pick-up parties may be less likely than in other games, if robbers are pushed into organized companies. (edited)
Maybe not pushed into companies, but certainly pushed into training and slotting certain skills. If joining a faction and leveling up in that faction. In joining a company to have access to feuds, or a settlement to have access to wars.
Basically, we have to be selective of our targets. I'm O.K. with that, I actually prefer it. But lets not be disillusioned that SADS, Faction or Feuds gives bandits anything they wouldn't already have without the "Negative Feedback Loop", they just allow us to set the mark to zero.
I really believe this is the reconciliation of Ryan's post:
Ryan explains (reconciles) it here: "your character may be attacked and killed, but our long term goal is to make the reasons for that attack meaningful in the larger context of the struggle for control of territory in the game."
I have written this over and over again. Meaningful Reasons to PvP! In many of the other MMOs, there are no reasons to PvP. Most don't have a significant death penalty or a death penalty at all. Not so in PFO. At least your death will create some demand fir replacement gear. Your death might also send you far off from the present field of battle.
There are also other causes to fight for. You may kill another for your company, settlement, kingdom, faction or Diety. You may kill them for some professional obligation (contract) as a bounty hunter, mercenary or assassin. You may kill them to stay off your land, or to clear them away from land your company, settlement or kingdom wish to gain control of. You may kill them to secure resources or out of greed as a bandit or raider.
All of these have a meaningful reason to engage in PvP. Most if not all of these advance the fulfillment of needs of something greater than the individual. PFO is a PvP game, but unlike most others, it is one that stresses a purpose held by many and not just the one.
|
CEO, Goblinworks
|
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm increasingly worried that the messages coming out of the community don't match what will actually happen in game, and the disconnect between what people hear, and what they experience, will cause blowback. So I'm trying to be blunt when asked this question directly:
"Will I get killed regularly in Pathfinder Online by other players?"
The answer to this question is "yes you will".
American football is not a game about tackling, but tackling happens on almost every play. Pathfinder Online is not a game about killing other players, but your character will be killed by other players regularly.
Pathfinder Online is a game about conflict. One mode of conflict is combat. It will be the primary mode of conflict as Early Enrollment begins. Suggesting otherwise creates a false impression of what the game will be like that will potentially cause a huge problem as we launch.
Our goal, as developers, and our goal, as a community, needs to be to work to make those conflicts meaningful rather than random, and we need to work to identify, and remove, players who only want to inflict meaningless deaths on other players "just for the lulz". But we owe it to ourselves and to the game to be upfront and honest when people ask us if they're going to face character death at the hands of other players. Because they will.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I'm increasingly worried that the messages coming out of the community don't match what will actually happen in game, and the disconnect between what people hear, and what they experience, will cause blowback.
For me, anything that causes other players to ask themselves "is it worth it to me to kill this guy" is going to make PFO significantly different than a game like Darkfall, and your commitment to break the pattern of random and meaningless killing is the critical feature of PFO that I think will make it appealing to a larger audience. That makes me want to share that viewpoint.
Is that viewpoint itself wrong? Or is there a perception - perhaps heavily influenced by consistent mischaracterization - that my viewpoint is something other than what I described above?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@ Nihimon
I assume that your question is for Ryan and won't presume to answer for him. I am curious and would like to help you clarify your position if you are game.
What is random/meaningless killing and how can you tell? In Darkfall they had no reason (with us) except probably the loot we had on us.
Is it random/meaningless if the killer loots you, in your opinion?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What is random/meaningless killing and how can you tell?
I don't think you can "tell" if any particular instance of a killing is random/meaningless. I think the proof will be in the way the game feels over time. When you first begin leaving the protection of the starter towns, if "most" of the people you meet kill you "most" of the time, it's a pretty safe bet they're doing it randomly/meaninglessly.
n Darkfall they had no reason (with us) except probably the loot we had on us.
In Darkfall, there was no reason not to kill.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Maybe, after you get killed, you get to see a popup that sais one of the following, out of a list:
"You just got killed by a member of a Settlement that your Settlement is at war with;"
"You just got killed by a member of a company that your Company has a Feud with;"
"You just got killed by a player that you attacked first;" (ouch)
"You just got killed by a player of an Enemy Faction;"
"You just got killed (by an NPC or player) because you broke the law according to Hex/local laws";"
"You just got killed for the lulz;" :)
I am just kidding here, but I think it will go a LONG way if it is clear to you why another player (suddenly) attacks you, and you got killed. If you know the reason, people will sooner see the meaning of it. And yes, carrying a bag full of gems after you mined a motherlode, should tip you off also... :)
I am sure that veterans of this game will learn to know what to expect, when and why; however for the new player, your first death by the hand of a player may come as a surprise.
There will be flags, laws, red names? and such: the challenge for GW is to make these as translucent and obvious as possible. The challenge for the player off course is to learn the ropes. :)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I'm increasingly worried that the messages coming out of the community don't match what will actually happen in game, and the disconnect between what people hear, and what they experience, will cause blowback. So I'm trying to be blunt when asked this question directly:
"Will I get killed regularly in Pathfinder Online by other players?"
The answer to this question is "yes you will".
American football is not a game about tackling, but tackling happens on almost every play. Pathfinder Online is not a game about killing other players, but your character will be killed by other players regularly.
Pathfinder Online is a game about conflict. One mode of conflict is combat. It will be the primary mode of conflict as Early Enrollment begins. Suggesting otherwise creates a false impression of what the game will be like that will potentially cause a huge problem as we launch.
Our goal, as developers, and our goal, as a community, needs to be to work to make those conflicts meaningful rather than random, and we need to work to identify, and remove, players who only want to inflict meaningless deaths on other players "just for the lulz". But we owe it to ourselves and to the game to be upfront and honest when people ask us if they're going to face character death at the hands of other players. Because they will.
Do you think a number of those regular kills in Pathfinder Online will occur without a severe reputation cost on the attacker?
I ask because if the cost is large, I could see people experiencing non consensual conflict less. If you expect there to be a wide range of outlets for conflict then the answer would still be yes. In my mind at least.
TLDR if you mean you mostly want to curb jerks pvping only to be jerks, then I see your point. You might see just as much pvp in PfO as you do in other games of its type.
That assumes a very small percentage of players you are wanting to curb, and something as simple as "I want your stuff" is a meaningful reason for conflict.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Good answer. That is pretty much how I see a very difficult and possibly painful (for GW as well as the player base) problem. :)
If my answer is significantly out of line with Ryan's expectations, I'd like to know that sooner rather than later.
[Edit] And if my obsession with the fact that PFO will have less random/meaningless PvP than a game like Darkfall is fine, but Ryan would prefer that not be construed by new folks as an indication that there won't be any random/meaningless PvP, or that they will be free from unwanted PvP in PFO, so he would prefer not to highlight that, I'm fine with that, too.
|
CEO, Goblinworks
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I actually really like that idea of being told what factors might have influenced your death. I wonder if that is possible to communicate in some kind of "killmail".
In general, this is what I see happening.
Day One of Early Enrollment, people are going to log in and go looking for fights. It's going to be a pretty bloody, pretty messy free-for all. We are thinking about ways to influence that start, but I think it's inevitable. It's just a natural human thing to want to see how the tech works, and the most interesting combats are going to be with other players, so there is going to be a massive PvP explosion. Pretending otherwise just sets us up for failure and a huge PR debacle.
A few days, maybe weeks into Early Enrollment, the first-day jitters will have calmed down and folks won't be so hasty to drop everything and fight each other "just because". When we reach that point we'll be more able to communicate values to the players even if there's no in-game mechanical effects.
Of course depending on how we add new accounts, and how fast we add new accounts, there's going to have to be a continuous process of re-education as those new players hit the servers and want to "try out" the combat system.
Early Enrollment, because of it's MVP nature, is also going to be a time & place where people want to test a lot of stuff, so they can make suggestions to us and participate in Crowdforging. So I expect all sorts of attacks between players that have a metagame value even if the ingame value is hard to parse. It's very difficult to say that we don't benefit from those actions in the long run.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I actually really like that idea of being told what factors might have influenced your death. I wonder if that is possible to communicate in some kind of "killmail".
In general, this is what I see happening.
Day One of Early Enrollment, people are going to log in and go looking for fights. It's going to be a pretty bloody, pretty messy free-for all. We are thinking about ways to influence that start, but I think it's inevitable. It's just a natural human thing to want to see how the tech works, and the most interesting combats are going to be with other players, so there is going to be a massive PvP explosion. Pretending otherwise just sets us up for failure and a huge PR debacle.
A few days, maybe weeks into Early Enrollment, the first-day jitters will have calmed down and folks won't be so hasty to drop everything and fight each other "just because". When we reach that point we'll be more able to communicate values to the players even if there's no in-game mechanical effects.
Of course depending on how we add new accounts, and how fast we add new accounts, there's going to have to be a continuous process of re-education as those new players hit the servers and want to "try out" the combat system.
Early Enrollment, because of it's MVP nature, is also going to be a time & place where people want to test a lot of stuff, so they can make suggestions to us and participate in Crowdforging. So I expect all sorts of attacks between players that have a metagame value even if the ingame value is hard to parse. It's very difficult to say that we don't benefit from those actions in the long run.
Yup. A bloody, fun mess for a good long while....
Embrace and Prepare, All Ye Who Enter Here!
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I have a character concept that would be something like Judi Dench in The Chronicles of Riddick: Going around as some sort of Diplomat - possibly with vast reserves available for bounties should these duties be interrupted... though in all honesty I think I'm too hot-headed to be a good diplomat, it's really the threat of a large bounty and "diplomatic immunity" to swan around using diplomatic passport across borders, that does it for me. :pMy solo character concept is molded after Kwai Chang Caine (Kung Fu TV series) who I intend to be a Lawful Good Monk who travels the River Kingdoms and heals / protects anyone in need.
I will train him in gathering (herbs) and crafting (healing salves and other remedies) and then search for injured players to aid. This is why I was so glad to here about the pre-death state as a feature.
Unlike Ryan, I believe that this type of character may have an easier time surviving solo because he would not be carrying great wealth. More importantly, he may be seen as universally beneficial as long as he heals those in need, regardless of any of their labels ( Name, company, settlement, kingdom, faction, Deity, alignment, reputation level, etc).
I have a very similar idea for my main character. Although it not really based around a solo concept since I sure she will be willing to group with anyone. Traveling herbalist based off a character from a series I read long ago.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
[Edit] And if my obsession with the fact that PFO will have less random/meaningless PvP than a game like Darkfall is fine, but Ryan would prefer that not be construed by new folks as an indication that there won't be any random/meaningless PvP, or that they will be free from unwanted PvP in PFO, so he would prefer not to highlight that, I'm fine with that, too.
I went out into the danger zones (in DFUW) often, as did many of the Goblin Squad. I went alone a great majority of the time. I made it back to "bank" my goodies 80 - 90% of the time.
I will be curious to see whether a general culture can be developed that is more excepting of PVP (for those that are leery of it). There certainly will (eventually) be less random/meaningless (by almost any definition) PVP because of all of the proposed avenues for the "sanctioned/preferred" types.
There won't be less PVP though. I have a feeling that there will be more PVP than we experienced in Darkfall. At least until the map area gets to a very large size.
I am hoping that there will be enough people that can embrace that. Some will and some won't.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I like the kill mail idea, and the questionnaire, but it should ask questions of both victim and attacker. It should only be voluntary, and should be something that one player or the other can turn off. Finally, I believe it would have the most value early on, not just during EE but also for a fairly new character as well.
Then the data (responses) can be analyzed and both GW and the player base can begin to see what motivations drives conflict.
I just thought of a quote by Donald Rumsfeld: "You don't fight a war with the army you want, you fight a war with the army you have."
The same might apply to building a community that is being actively encouraged to engage in conflict. But, at the same time you want to guide them to a certain way to engage in that conflict. The first step is to know the army you have. Know what motivates them.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I have a very similar idea for my main character. Although it not really based around a solo concept since I sure she will be willing to group with anyone. Traveling herbalist based off a character from a series I read long ago.I have a character concept that would be something like Judi Dench in The Chronicles of Riddick: Going around as some sort of Diplomat - possibly with vast reserves available for bounties should these duties be interrupted... though in all honesty I think I'm too hot-headed to be a good diplomat, it's really the threat of a large bounty and "diplomatic immunity" to swan around using diplomatic passport across borders, that does it for me. :pMy solo character concept is molded after Kwai Chang Caine (Kung Fu TV series) who I intend to be a Lawful Good Monk who travels the River Kingdoms and heals / protects anyone in need.
I will train him in gathering (herbs) and crafting (healing salves and other remedies) and then search for injured players to aid. This is why I was so glad to here about the pre-death state as a feature.
Unlike Ryan, I believe that this type of character may have an easier time surviving solo because he would not be carrying great wealth. More importantly, he may be seen as universally beneficial as long as he heals those in need, regardless of any of their labels ( Name, company, settlement, kingdom, faction, Deity, alignment, reputation level, etc).
That's v cool: I hope the devs are able to add lots of herbs and flower species, I was only the other day out hunting for wild orchids. I hope you got some herbs for your bday, then!?
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@Nihimon, from your quote above:
In order to do that we must repeatedly and powerfully shock the system. One of those shocks is a negative feedback loop that links random killing to gimping character development.If Brighthaven/TEO has a group harvesting nodes in a skymetal hex, those harvesters might be getting some good wealth. A competing settlement or company might enter into PvP legitimately, and the two groups might kill each other early and often. This is fine, working as intended.
Joe Dirt the Ragman and his party of ragpickers might enter the hex and try to kill and steal from the harvesters. If they keep coming back, any 'unsanctioned' attacks are going to drive down the ragpickers' Rep. This will disadvantage those characters as well as putting them into a 'practically free to attack' status.
So yes, I'd hazard that the rep loss mechanic, as well as other shocks, may well change the pattern.
That's the wrong scenario. The right scenario is "N. Ewbie wanders outside the marshal-patrolled area because he saw an interesting rock formation out there and he wants to play around on it. Somebody sees him and kills him."
That is the expected outcome of being noticed playing around near interesting scenery in Darkfall. If there was interesting nullsec scenery in Eve, that would be the expected outcome of gawking at it. It should not be expected that gawking at scenery in PFO will result in getting attacked.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
That's the wrong scenario. The right scenario is "N. Ewbie wanders outside the marshal-patrolled area because he saw an interesting rock formation out there and he wants to play around on it. Somebody sees him and kills him."That is the expected outcome of being noticed playing around near interesting scenery in Darkfall. If there was interesting nullsec scenery in Eve, that would be the expected outcome of gawking at it. It should not be expected that gawking at scenery in PFO will result in getting attacked.
Having played both games, Darkfall for about 6 months and EvE Online for over 9 years, this false characterization is the problem here on the PFO forums. Not only will PFO be different from those games, but those games are different from those games, based on your description.
The Boogey Man does not exist or is represented by such a small population it can be largely ignored. There will be do few Boogey Men, that GW will be able to deal with them. For those that slip through, your player grouping will have all if the tools they need to exact revenge.