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If a weapon is enchanted with both vicious and merciful enchantments would all the damage the weapon deals be subdual damage including the damage it does to the wielder?
Seems like a great way to go all out without worrying about killing bystanders.
they'll think your a a**hole but not a murder especially when you start using power attack and vital strike.
On a side note when you are healed magically do you heal both subduel damage and regular damage?
I.e. cure light wounds takes away 1d8+1 of both
First, nonlethal damage can kill.
If a creature’s nonlethal damage is equal to his total maximum hit points (not his current hit points), all further nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage.
Second, yes, when you receive healing it heals 1 point of nonlethal damage for every point of lethal damage healed.
Healing Nonlethal Damage: You heal nonlethal damage at the rate of 1 hit point per hour per character level. When a spell or ability cures hit point damage, it also removes an equal amount of nonlethal damage.
So you get a opponent to its maximum hit points in non-lethal damage
You don't have to go through his regular hp to kill him?
So much for my vicious, merciful, impact, and keen large sized bastard sword not killing that dragon when i do a power attacking greater vital strike while large sized.
Lol
If someone have non lethal damage equal to their maximum HP they start to take lethal.
Sounds like a great combo for an Invulnerable Rager.
An additional 2d6 free damage? Yes, please.
Sounds like a great combo for an Invulnerable Rager.
An additional 2d6 free damage? Yes, please.
Actually its 4d6, 1d6 for merciful, 3d6 vicious and you take one of those yourself.
Ok my target has a maximum hp of 50 a current hp of 30 then i hit him for 75 points of non-lethal damage so he takes 50 non-lethal damage and 25 lethal damage leaving him with 5 current hp what happens?
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1) Vicious is 2d6 to them, 1d6 to you.
2) He has 30 current hp. You inflict 30 non-lethal, then the other 45 becomes lethal. Off of his 30 current, that leaves him at -15. If you want him alive he better have a con bigger than 15 and stabilize.
3) What you want is: he has 50 current hp. You swing for 75 non-lethal. He takes 50 non-lethal, then 25 lethal, leaving him at 25 current hp and unconscious. Basically, you don't want to do more than double their current hp in non-lethal or you will still drop them to negatives.
If a weapon is enchanted with both vicious and merciful enchantments would all the damage the weapon deals be subdual damage including the damage it does to the wielder?Absolutely not. Not even the damage done to the opponent is non-lethal:
Vicious: When a vicious weapon strikes an opponent, it creates a flash of disruptive energy that resonates between the opponent and the wielder. This energy deals an extra 2d6 points of damage to the opponent and 1d6 points of damage to the wielder.
As the weapon itself is not what is dealing the damage, merciful does not apply.
1) Vicious is 2d6 to them, 1d6 to you.
2) He has 30 current hp. You inflict 30 non-lethal, then the other 45 becomes lethal. Off of his 30 current, that leaves him at -15. If you want him alive he better have a con bigger than 15 and stabilize.
3) What you want is: he has 50 current hp. You swing for 75 non-lethal. He takes 50 non-lethal, then 25 lethal, leaving him at 25 current hp and unconscious. Basically, you don't want to do more than double their current hp in non-lethal or you will still drop them to negatives.
Incorrect, but a common mistake. fel_horfrost had it right - a creature can take non-lethal damage up to it's maximum hit-points, not it's current hit-points. When fel_horfrost's enemy is reduced to 5 hit-points, with 50 non-lethal, he falls unconscious (as non-lethal damage exceeds current hit-points).
Sounds like a great combo for an Invulnerable Rager.
An additional 2d6 free damage? Yes, please.
Nope. Damage Reduction does not apply to energy damage, which vicious is.
All that said, merciful and vicious is a great, if really odd, combination. +2 bonus for 3d6 damage (with 1d6 to you), can almost always take prisoners, but if you're surprised by something immune to non-lethal you at least get some minor licks in from the vicious before taking the standard action to turn off the merciful quality. Great for a worshipper of Nethys, or other conflicted deities (protection/destruction, healing/destruction/death, etc.)
So Mercyful does not affect the vicious damage but would it affect power attack damage or damage from the vital strike?
It would change all damage for th weapon not speciically its own magic effect.
Merciful vicious greatsword vital strike would btech 5d6 nl 2d6 energy only 2d6 muktiplied on crit
So Mercyful does not affect the vicious damage but would it affect power attack damage or damage from the vital strike?
Correct (and correct Mojorat).
Also: Nice example Kazaan!
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I'm sorry, Majuba, you are incorrect about the interaction of Vicious and Merciful. You didn't bold enough of the entry.
When a vicious strikes an opponent, creates a flash of disruptive energy that resonates between the opponent and the wielder. This energy deals an extra 2d6 points of damage to the opponent and 1d6 points of damage to the wielder.
The damage is part of what the weapon deals, therefore Merciful turns it to nonlethal.
The weapon deals an extra 1d6 points of damage, and all damage it deals is nonlethal damage. On command, the weapon suppresses this ability until told to resume it (allowing it to deal lethal damage, but without any bonus damage from this ability).
The statement "all" is powerful. It encompasses everything. If you had a +1 Merciful Flaming Longsword even the +1d6 Fire would be nonlethal.
As for overcoming DR, that's a different debate.
So is disruptive energy the same as weapon damage? I think the RAI are that the damage from the weapon is non-lethal but that doesn't necessarily mean that the extra disruptive energy part is included in that. There is no RAW for the combo of the two weapon properties working together only for them individually.
I can see this being read/understood/ruled either way to be honest.
What is clear is that the merciful weapon isn't blunt, just magically altered so as not to deal lethal, whether that would include disruptive energy is anyone's guess.
I don't think it's clear cut although I personally would rule that it's all non-lethal.
A bit like a built in Ablative Barrier.
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I prefer to rely on English.
If Vicious says "the weapon deals X damage", then it's the weapon that's dealing the damage.
If Merciful says "all damage dealt by the weapon", then all damage the weapon deals is affected.
Including the +2d6 that the weapon is dealing from Vicious.
This seems like a pretty awesome combo...unless the enemies have a healer!
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Vicious
Price +1 bonus
Aura moderate necromancy; CL 9th; Weight —
DESCRIPTIONThis special ability can only be placed on melee weapons.
When a vicious weapon strikes an opponent, it creates a flash of disruptive energy that resonates between the opponent and the wielder. This energy deals an extra 2d6 points of damage to the opponent and 1d6 points of damage to the wielder.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTSCraft Magic Arms and Armor, enervation; Cost +1 bonus
So, you have Enervation, as one of the prerequisite spells, which suggests it deals a type of negative energy damage.
Does it?
Can negative energy damage also be nonlethal?
So, you have Enervation, as one of the prerequisite spells, which suggests it deals a type of negative energy damage.Does it?
Can negative energy damage also be nonlethal?
It doesn't particularly suggest that, no.
But negative energy damage can be nonlethal.
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The same type as the weapon, by my reading. It just says 'extra damage', which says to me it goes on top of the weapon, just as sneak attack damage with a bludgeoning weapon is also bludgeoning.
If it were negative energy, it would say so (and need to, since you'd heal undead).
If the damage if the same type as the weapon, then it would be subject to DR.
Correct.
So do you guys feel this question is worthy of a faq?
So do you guys feel this question is worthy of a faq?If only to truly know what kind of damage the Vicious property does, and what effects it.
Hmm, i think i have seen this question asked before, but i can't find it on a brief search.
If my memory serves, Vicious damage to wielder was considered Untyped and taken regardless of resists and/or DR.
I believe there was a debate over this regarding a certain previous season PFS scenario NPC who was mistated to be immune to his own vicious weapon due to his DR as a catalyst for it.
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Indeed.
It is an old PFS scenario. Season 2, I believe. The statblock says the BBEG has high enough of a DR that his Vicious weapon does not harm him.
It's the only example in print that we have to go off of, so I tend to go off of it.
But when I sit down at a PFS table with my Vicious DR 6/- Barbarian I'm sure to explain the conflict to the GM before the game begins.
So far, it's been a mix.
I prefer to rely on English.
If Vicious says "the weapon deals X damage", then it's the weapon that's dealing the damage.
If Merciful says "all damage dealt by the weapon", then all damage the weapon deals is affected.
Including the +2d6 that the weapon is dealing from Vicious.
You're not quoting all the information, it says disruptive energy, and as we all know, energy damage is not the same as weapon damage so it is not clear at all.
Bit of a rez, but for anyone interested:
Vicious weapons add to the damage done by the base weapon; this extra damage is the type of damage caused by the base weapon. AKA the "disruptive energy" is flavor text, pretty much.
This would seem to indicate that the return 1d6 can be DR'ed.
He then states elsewhere that "Merciful" turns the 2d6 into non-lethal.
It shouldn't matter.
It's from the weapon.
Merciful says "all".
Even Flaming would become nonlethal fire damage.
This.
I am incapable of reading the abilities together any other way.
Bit of a rez, but for anyone interested:
Vicious weapons add to the damage done by the base weapon; this extra damage is the type of damage caused by the base weapon. AKA the "disruptive energy" is flavor text, pretty much.This would seem to indicate that the return 1d6 can be DR'ed.
He then states elsewhere that "Merciful" turns the 2d6 into non-lethal.
So now all barbarians will have vicious furious weapons...
(Not that that's a bad thing)|
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Bit of a rez, but for anyone interested:
Vicious weapons add to the damage done by the base weapon; this extra damage is the type of damage caused by the base weapon. AKA the "disruptive energy" is flavor text, pretty much.This would seem to indicate that the return 1d6 can be DR'ed.
He then states elsewhere that "Merciful" turns the 2d6 into non-lethal.
So now all barbarians will have vicious furious weapons...
(Not that that's a bad thing)
They didn't already?
This was never about dr or reducing the damage.
it was just about a flavorful way to enchant a weapon.
My other option was a flaming, frost, shock, asidic, vicious bastard sword.
I liked this one better.