Ugh, I was going to make a DBZ-esque Warlock with the aid of the polymorph Black Arts... then I started reading the spells again and remembered why I f***ing hate polymorph characters. You basically need a separate charactersheet for every form/spell!
I am just able to apply bonuses and new abilities on the fly. I do keep a list of viable polymorphs when I play such a wizard or w/e though.
|
Getting some more peer review today, and more playtesting tomorrow with a ranged Destruction, Melee Destruction, and Hex Warlock at 5-6th level.
I'm honestly really looking forward to seeing just how good Hexlocks work.
Damage for Melocks is back to how it was before, testing it out like that. thinking the trait for one handed weapons may be a bit much. Thinking of altering how Curse Path works to increasing Cha Mod equal to the number of Hex Weaves the Warlock takes.
Also new path up, Blood, give it a look. Thinking of another one, deciding on it now.
|
|
Okay, got a lot of Hexlock feedback today.
Hex Barrier and Hex Blessing add way too big of bonuses, limiting them to 1/2 Cha bonus, and they now last equal to level instead of half.
Smoldering Witchfire really works in longer encounters, which is where I assumed it would shine.
Might remove the +1 to Hex Fusion to make it only 1/2 level per day instead of 1 + 1/2 level per day.
Misfortune is brutal, and Hex Weaves/Hex Fusion might need some more clear language, although I'm not sure how to phrase it. Part of it might have been poor reading (had to show the class on my DS, so it wasn't great for being able to read over all of it.
Also there's a few new paths: Blood, Death, and Despair, and a few new Hex Weaves: Resistance, Gift, and Mage Bane.
Check out the changes, see what you think.
EDIT: Also Hex (Vitality) Eater was a big hit, basically used on every Hex. Top Hexes taken were Evil Eye, Misfortune, and Healing.
|
|
Playtest lead to some information on blastlocks, which were a lot of fun, and dualpath is very strong.
It might be too good, but I'm going to need more playtesting to make sure this works.
Nothing new on things added to the class, I think it's pretty solid as is, although more playtesting is always useful.
Might need to make a way for non hex healing, but Hex Vampire with Hex Drain is a little stronger than I'd like.
|
Speaking as a long-time fine of most things labeled "warlock:" Not perfect, but I like it a lot! Personally, some changes/additions I can think I'd like to see in this right off the bat are:
- restricting alignment to "any Chaotic"
- restricting the class's good save to Will
- a more central role for Intelligence in their magic (without necessarily abandoning need for/direct benefit from Charisma)
- all (or at least many, rather than just one) Knowledge skills as class skills
- an alternative/adjustment to Grim Focus would be nice; I'm assuming it's based off 3.5's "psionic focus," but while this is an improvement over that, I was never happy with that mechanic
- an idea I had for a Warlock class feature was a basal ability called "Oath-Breaker," taking a nod to the ignominious and likely source of the word and twisting it into a virtue somehow: For a simple example, allowing Warlocks to add their Intelligence modifier to their Will save instead of and/or in addition to Wisdom, or other ways one might demonstrate how the truly audacious, clever, and free-willed might escape situations, conflicts, and entanglements that most others would consider certain doom
- a broader range/bigger library of Black Arts, more in line with or surpassing the range of powers one found in 3.5 Invocations.
Am I the only one around here who comes from the Might & Magic/Heroes of Might & Magic background, and wishes for a warlock that falls more into that vein?
|
|
Speaking as a long-time fine of most things labeled "warlock:" Not perfect, but I like it a lot! Personally, some changes/additions I can think I'd like to see in this right off the bat are:
- restricting alignment to "any Chaotic"
- restricting the class's good save to Will
- a more central role for Intelligence in their magic (without necessarily abandoning need for/direct benefit from Charisma)
- all (or at least many, rather than just one) Knowledge skills as class skills
- an alternative/adjustment to Grim Focus would be nice; I'm assuming it's based off 3.5's "psionic focus," but while this is an improvement over that, I was never happy with that mechanic
- an idea I had for a Warlock class feature was a basal ability called "Oath-Breaker," taking a nod to the ignominious and likely source of the word and twisting it into a virtue somehow: For a simple example, allowing Warlocks to add their Intelligence modifier to their Will save instead of and/or in addition to Wisdom, or other ways one might demonstrate how the truly audacious, clever, and free-willed might escape situations, conflicts, and entanglements that most others would consider certain doom
- a broader range/bigger library of Black Arts, more in line with or surpassing the range of powers one found in 3.5 Invocations.Am I the only one around here who comes from the Might & Magic/Heroes of Might & Magic background, and wishes for a warlock that falls more into that vein?
Glad to see you like it, it's been a lot of fun designing.
-Chaotic is okay, but honestly I'd rather not restrict it to just one label. At most, I'd say non lawful, as making only 3 alignments playable just doesn't seem good for RP.
-I really don't think any class should be at only one good save unless it's a full caster, so I'd rather keep two good saves due to that little rule of mine. I'm pretty sure all other (non rogue) 3/4ths BAB characters have two good saves, and I'd like to continue that trend.
-Oddly, I had people complain when the class even had Knowledge: religion, saying it was 'too much.' The class is pinned as under educated, so I don't want too many knowledges.
-I'm not really sure how that'd work, like intelligence seems more the part of a more structured caster, while this 'caster' is wild and unfocused.
-I based it off Psy Focus as well as the whole Binders needing 5 rounds to recharge, but I also figured giving the ability to super charge that via paths would make for some fun. I don't really see anyway to alter it greatly, due to how integral it's become to the class.
-I actually did look up the etymology for the class while trying to name some of the abilities, and the closest to an 'oath breaker' ability I could think of was Despair Path's ability to break the covenant between the party and the target. Again, I don't see intelligence as a big focus of this class, I'd put wisdom above it instead if I was thinking of sneaking out of things without being overly educated.
As for new things, I've got a few.
* New Black Arts: Blood Kain and Devoured by Darkness. Got on a GG kick, and this gives melocks more of a reason to be played, since the style was really lacking in representation. Now they've got a healing ability, but at more of a cost than Hex Drain/Vampire, which to me was very important.
* New Black Art: Penetrating Blast. This is to give them a bit more of a hammer to bust through things, and avoid resistances for elemental folks.
* New Black Art: Mind Shatter. More of to round out some more abilities for ABTs, might think of some new Hex abilities later too.
* New Black Art: Warlock's Familiar. Originally a part of the class, this seems too iconic not to include, and might lead to some other Master Black Arts.
Slight edit to Void's ability to make sure it doesn't stack with Blood Kain (or else melee would be too good), but there's some more things planned once I get some more inspiration (time to hit the video games and manga again.)
Okay, so I just read through this, and I gotta say I really like this class. Ye olde 3.5 warlock is one of my favorite D&D classes, and I think this is an interesting take on the class. Obviously I can't help making comparisons with my own Wyrder class that I just posted, which I suppose is more caster-y than this class, and also more focused on healing and utility.
I really like the dark and aggressive edge of the flavor of a lot of these abilities, although I can't say for sure whether all the numbers are balanced; sadly that's not my strong suite when it comes to game design. I really like the vampiric and teleportation-based Black Arts, and on the whole I think you've managed to crank a lot of versatility out of the "black/satanic magic" flavor of the original warlock. I think one of these would be a blast to play, no pun intended. The Grim Focus class feature is a nice spin on psionic focus-type abilities that seems like it'll add a fun dynamic element to combat; such things are always welcome!
I couldn't really find any foibles to point out, sadly, but hopefully my appreciation of the class as a whole will be worth something.
Cheers,
Gears
Have you thought about giving an ability that grants Plane Shift ? Either as a single ability or one that leads up to it like how Deceptive Journey starts at Teleport then levels up and ends with Interplanetary Teleport
One form it could take is that when a single enemy is touched they are planeshifted elsewhere for a number of rounds and then returns (possibly with some adverse effect depending on where the enemy was sent) and when the warlock uses the ability on himself (and allies he is in contact with) he can use Plane Shift as per the spell
|
|
First: Yes, I did recognize the Pact Magic influence in how you made Grim Focus work.
-Oddly, I had people complain when the class even had Knowledge: religion, saying it was 'too much.' The class is pinned as under educated, so I don't want too many knowledges.-I'm not really sure how that'd work, like intelligence seems more the part of a more structured caster, while this 'caster' is wild and unfocused.
I've always felt that the creeping tendency toward Charisma as default ability underpinning arcane magic and away from Intelligence that took hold over the course of 3.0-3.5 was a big mistake. It started with the 3.0 Sorcerer, of course, but did you know that before 3.0 officially came out, several 3.0 classes that had been missing from 2nd Edition made their debut in the Baldur's Gate computer games? The Sorcerer was one of these, and in that game, their magic was based on Intelligence. I really want to initiate a shift back to making Charisma the exception, rather than rule, for arcane magic of any sort (it makes sense for Bards, Paladins, Summoners, and Binders, among others, and I do notice that to date, Paizo's magician classes do tend to favor Intelligence over Charisma; I'd also be inclined to suggest that Clerics should be Charisma-based, since they're trying to stand out in the eyes of a higher power, and Oracles Wisdom-based, since their magic is first and foremost based on perceiving and contemplating the cosmos around them) - In some cases, Charisma makes sense as an important complementary ability for certain kinds of magicians (such as Conjurers, Enchanters, and even Illusionists, as well as classes like AL-QADIM's Sha'ir), but certainly with regard to Sorcerers and Warlocks, they should be just as smart (maybe even moreso - they tend to eschew formal teaching because they're 'naturals,' and if the formal schooling in the setting is too "one-size-fits-all" it would just inhibit them) as Wizards, Witches, and Alchemists; they just think about it differently.
I claim that the move toward Charisma, the association of Intelligence with "order/structure," and so forth are all based on a fallacious understanding of all these concepts, more to do with secondhand stereotypes and 19th-Century Romanticism than understanding what actually goes on in people's minds ("It will be found, in fact, that the ingenious are always fanciful, and the truly imaginative never otherwise than analytic" - Edgar Allen Poe).
As I've said elsewhere, imagination is both the foundation and capstone of intelligence. I think willpower/ego plays a real role too (though that's a bit more debatable). As B.F. Skinner demonstrated with pigeons, you can train just about anyone to do just about anything - that doesn't make them smart. The fact that a Warlock wields vast power that others don't understand, and that Warlocks themselves can't communicate, is actually further evidence that their power comes from their Intelligence - they understand on a conceptual, rather than verbal, level ("The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao" - Lao Tzu).
- restricting alignment to "any Chaotic"
Seems like a really unneccessary restriction. A lawful evil warlock has some really great villain potential.
|
|
Have you thought about giving an ability that grants Plane Shift ? Either as a single ability or one that leads up to it like how Deceptive Journey starts at Teleport then levels up and ends with Interplanetary Teleport
One form it could take is that when a single enemy is touched they are planeshifted elsewhere for a number of rounds and then returns (possibly with some adverse effect depending on where the enemy was sent) and when the warlock uses the ability on himself (and allies he is in contact with) he can use Plane Shift as per the spell
Yeah, I didn't think of it to begin with, but now we have:
*New Black Art: Astral Traveler. More of a self travel version rather than the 'jaunt through hell' version that was expected, but Reality Rift is like a smaller version of that. Plus it gives Astral Projection, and avoids broken Gate issues, which is nice.
*New Black Art: Bladed Assault. With Psyche Scar and Gruesome Onslaught being promoted to Master, we needed a prereq, and here it is, a nice bleeding effect.
Master Black Arts now include Gruesome Onslaught and Psyche Scar, and Mind Shatter was dropped to an Initiate art to serve as a solid prereq for Psyche Scar. Blood Kain now heals more at 10, but also deals more damage on a round in which they don't heal from it.
Devoured by Darkness now gives a second attack without any boost to damage, mostly to up the chances of actually landing the killing blow, but still getting the bonus to attacks (at a -5 due to being a secondary attack), and the 20th ability no longer increases damage dice further.
*New Black Art: Serpent's Embrace. Not enough snake imagery, and there wasn't any binding abilities yet. I want to make sure all status conditions get a turn here.
*New Black Art: Eyes of the Hunter. Just another way to boost senses, and see in magical darkness, which is important for some Warlocks.
|
|
Seems like a really unneccessary restriction. A lawful evil warlock has some really great villain potential.
- restricting alignment to "any Chaotic"
So does a Lawful Evil Bard (which used to be off-limits, and I think still should be) or Barbarian (which is still off-limits, but I don't think should have ever been). It's a question of how you imagine a given class and its raison d'etre.
I agree on the bard, but I'm fine with non-lawful barbarians.
[Threadjack]I have a problem with non-lawful barbarian restriction only because plenty of real world primitive societies that some Barbarian characters' game cultures are analogues of were very hide-bound, reactionary and traditional. Being unlawful and breaking mores, or being taboo usually meant being heavily ostracised, if not entirely cast out or killed. [/threadjack]
|
|
[Threadjack]I have a problem with non-lawful barbarian restriction only because plenty of real world primitive societies that some Barbarian characters' game cultures are analogues of were very hide-bound, reactionary and traditional. Being unlawful and breaking mores, or being taboo usually meant being heavily ostracised, if not entirely cast out or killed. [/threadjack]
If anything, Barbarians should be restricted to "any non-Chaotic."
That said, the D&D Barbarian is quite specifically Conan, who bears a resemblance to some British Islander and Northern-Central European groups, but is, for one reason or another, quite a poor fit for anywhere and anyone else in the world.
|
|
@I'm Hiding In Your Closet
There's a lot of ground to cover in what you've said, so quoting it all might be cumbersome.
While the real life divide might be there, in 3.0/3.5/PF, there is a clear distinction made. This class is pulling from the 3.5 Warlock quite a bit, and the rules set does say more of force of personality helping to take and create magic.
I'd equate this to a Green Lantern. We've got some people of average intelligence wielding the ring, but the creativity they show (which I feel falls under Charisma) is what makes their powers useful. I think it's because it's easy to put a lot of emphasis on intelligence that the separation was made in 3.0/etc.
Like it's easy to say it all came from intelligence, but sectioning it off helped make more diverse, which is why I stand by keeping it as a Charisma based class. That, and also I really like Charisma casters, since Charisma is a needless stat most of the time so giving it some value makes me happy. I want people to be drawn to PCs of this class, to wonder what makes them so alluring, so terrifying, so wordlessly attractive.
As for alignments, you're talking to someone who'd like Paladin to be de-aligned a bit, so restrictions on alignments aren't likely from me.
Also I believe you also asked for more Black Arts. I wanted to work with a few old faves, as well as give some more traditionally 'evil' creatures a spot in the sun...
* New Black Art: Hex Backlash. A prereq for Hex Magebane, it's also another 'screw casters' ability, which are deeply important to me.
* New Black Art: Eccentric Chain. Not sure of the wording of this one, have an idea for an advanced Black Art based off of it though.
* New Black Art: Spiderweb Carnage. A lot of this was based solely on the visual of it, although it's a good way to share some Gruesome Onslaught goodness. Also added to the Demolition Dilettante feat, and also a standard action use, since it'd be too good to fire off more than one of those a round (especially quicksliver'd.) This also fills an important role as a melee ability which allows them to attack en masse, as prior to this A. Cannon and U. Explosion were ranged only.
* New Black Art: Familiar Soul Bond. Something I've been tooling around with in my head for a while, but getting the mechanics down was pretty important.
* New Black Art: Blood of the Arachnid. Not enough spider themed abilities, and this was a lot from watching Spiderman (Initiative bonus is spider sense, obv.)
I have an idea for another one, but I want to get peer review before I put it in, it's a Master Black Art.
(ABS) Black Rain: An Arcane Blast modified by this Black Art may be separated into individual blast. A Warlock may reduce the damage of their Arcane Blast by any number of damage dice, creating a separate blast that does 1d6 + the Warlock's Charisma modifier (minimum +1). For every separate blast made, reduce the DC of any saves associated with this Arcane Blast by 3. At 15th level, instead reduce the saves by 2, and at 20th level reduce the saves by 1. Using this Arcane Blast Shape is a standard action.
Any chance you'll be doing any mythic stuff ?
|
|
Any chance you'll be doing any mythic stuff ?
I kind of doubt it, this would have to be made into a PDF to be sold to validate doing that in my mind. Not something I'd be opposed to, but I don't know how to go about doing that, so any help on that front would be appreciated.
As for new additions, there's a few.
* New Magical Item: Drought of the Forsaken. I'm not sure on the duration of this one, tooling around with it, might move it up to an hour, but there's a lot of abilities I know lower level players won't get the chance to use, so the droughts give them a chance to get their hands on "ULTIMATE COSMIC POWER" far earlier, while still having the damage restrictions of their lower leveled selves. Also construction requirements listed for both Bracers and Droughts.
* NEW SECTION: Alternative Racial Favored Class Bonuses. Now this was a fun one, I'd been meaning to get to it for a while, but finally decided to actually get some work done on it. I'm pretty happy with most of them (elemental ones are lame, as expected), but most popular races as well as thematic choices are covered. Let me know if there's a race you think I didn't cover that I should.
Some traits were nix'd, mostly those that didn't add directly to the class, that could be done with other traits. I'm mostly hoping to keep my traits pretty focused on the class, although if I can format it so they fit well, I might return them.
@N.Jolly - do you mean draughts instead of droughts?
As for making this a PDF - making a PDF in Word is not difficult, or so I am told.
In terms of making this class into a PDF for sale/publication, the main problem is really with the name. I would urge you to perhaps rename the class to differentiate it from the 3.5 Warlock and Amora Games Warloghe (soon to be released as part of Liber Influxus Communis) or the upcoming Warlock that will appear in Strange Brew: The Ultimate Witch and Warlock.
If you really want to see to published, by all means publish it yourself or approach a 3PP. Just note most 3PP's will likely want to rename it. I could be completely wrong.
I love this version you have created - it has plenty of variation and versatility (Black Arts, Warlock's Paths...) Although personally I'm no fan of the arcane/eldritch/grim Blast that seems to have invaded popular RPG Warlocks that is neither here nor there. Nice work! :)
|
|
@N.Jolly - do you mean draughts instead of droughts?
As for making this a PDF - making a PDF in Word is not difficult, or so I am told.
In terms of making this class into a PDF for sale/publication, the main problem is really with the name. I would urge you to perhaps rename the class to differentiate it from the 3.5 Warlock and Amora Games Warloghe (soon to be released as part of Liber Influxus Communis) or the upcoming Warlock that will appear in Strange Brew: The Ultimate Witch and Warlock.
If you really want to see to published, by all means publish it yourself or approach a 3PP. Just note most 3PP's will likely want to rename it. I could be completely wrong.
I love this version you have created - it has plenty of variation and versatility (Black Arts, Warlock's Paths...) Although personally I'm no fan of the arcane/eldritch/grim Blast that seems to have invaded popular RPG Warlocks that is neither here nor there. Nice work! :)
...yes, yes I did.
And I found out it wasn't hard at all.
As for the name, I'm torn between the recognition of the name "Warlock" and the glut of other Warlocks. Even before this, I knew Adamant did their own (clunky) Warlock, so the name makes it difficult. I have an alternative name lined up, the Forsaker (even has the name number of letters, so it doesn't mess up my formatting. It'd require some slightly different fluff (already working on that now), but it's not impossible.
If you could give me some advice on how to publish this myself (or give me a link to somewhere I could learn about it, I'd be seriously appreciative. My friend's been getting on me to put out something for a while now.
Thanks, a lot more effort's gone into this than I was expecting. I think if I go pull PDF with this, I might put some archetypes that I don't put up here into it, since I've had a few that I wanted to include, but need to include something to make it separate. Glad to see it looks like people are enjoying this though.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
@N. Jolly:
Sure here's what you need to do:
* Once your PDF is finished, make sure you have all of your OGL Section 15 information in order - essentially this is a list of all works you have used in the creation of your product's text. Check any PDFs or books you have, and look at their Section 15 of the OGL information at the back.
* Come up with a name for your publishing house/business. Make sure you adhere to all applicable business terms and conditions/legals as well.
* Submit your application for the Compatibility License HERE. Once you have done that I think you get access to the Pathfinder Compatible Product Logos.
* If not, contact Liz Courts at consignments@paizo.com and ask her where the Pathfinder Compatible Product logos are downloaded from because I can't remember.
* Place the Pathfinder Compatible Product logo on the cover of your PDF.
* Send your first PDF to Liz Courts at consignments@paizo.com for her to sight and give the OK for Compatibility and to make sure your OGL stuff is in order, logos are correct and visible etc….
* Once given the OK you can then upload the product by following the link Manage Consignments that will appear on the My Account page once your application for the Compatibility license has been accepted.
* It generally takes a few days for Liz to then check the product and place it for sale in the Paizo store.
* Note, once you have uploaded one PDF, you won't need to send her the PDF each time - just upload it as normal using the Manage Consignments link.
Then, look to have your product hosted at:
d20PFSRDStore: email Debra Reyst of d20pfsrd at dreyst@d20pfsrd.com to find out how, or follow the link: HERE
and
DrivethruRPG/RPGNow (also known as OBS and OneBookShelf) - their information page for new publishers can be found HERE.
Note that until you have a couple of products hosted with OBS they also take a few days to ok each product. Once you have more than two you can upload them and they go live immediately. I think that is how it works.
* Also note that it is a requirement of the Compatibility License that you send Paizo a copy of every compatible product, even if you do not sell it at Paizo.
If you have any other questions, by all means send me a PM or an email to the address in my profile...
|
|
@Oceanshieldwolf
Thanks a lot, this is seriously helpful.
I actually included the Archetypes because I saw your Direlock had them and I wanted to make sure to be as inclusive as I could be.
I actually finished off three, want to hold off before showing them to anyone on this thread, but let me know if you want to check them out.
@Oceanshieldwolf
Thanks a lot, this is seriously helpful.
I actually included the Archetypes because I saw your Direlock had them and I wanted to make sure to be as inclusive as I could be.
I actually finished off three, want to hold off before showing them to anyone on this thread, but let me know if you want to check them out.
I think a Base Class really needs archetypes in past to flesh out and broaden the concept, and in part to justify it being a Base Class in the first place. Note that the Direlock also has, what 17 or 18 feats as well, to give the class support.
I'm a bit too busy for looking at those archetypes - seriously your class alone is a mammoth read… Which is a compliment as you'll know being familiar with the Direlock…
Note to all interested, the Direlock content is now up to view for free on the d20PFSRD website, as well as all four archetypes, but not the feats or its one new spell. Not sure why the feats missed out...
|
|
Big changes: Took some advice, changed the name of the class to The Witcher.
Bunch of small edits, new major things are
*New Name: Witcher. This seems correct, although I'm not in love with it. It's a lot better than anything else I've thought of.
*New Black Arts: Necro Artificer and Artisan. A much more elegant way to animate the dead.
*New archetypes
-Dreadnaught
-Reaper
-Nemesis
-Shade
Just check them out, let me know what you think.
Gonna get started on some stuff to make this into a real 3PP class later, got a lot of work to do on that front though.
Haven't had a chance to look, but just reading your post, Witcher sounds cool, although it is the name of computer game right?
I like Forsaken...not the same as Forsaker, but close...
Flying Pincushion Games recently released Into the Breach: Oracle has an Oracle Alternate Class called... The Warlock, so maybe you should just stick with Warlock, or not, to distance yourself from all the others...
Archetype names sound pretty cool... I've used Dreadnaught a couple of times though for much more martial concepts...
|
|
Hm, so I've learned about about the name. That's good. Might look up some 'Witcher' stuff later.
For those of you who'd like to 'watch' The Witcher video game.
Got a few changes, a lot for formatting.
* New Black Arts: Devil Summoner/Scion. I've always thought the class should have some way of summoning up help. With this and Necro Artificer/Artisan, the class can do quite well as a 'pet' class.
* New Archetype: Covenant. Not complete, just an idea, but this is to really a fun idea that takes the class in an entirely different direction. Some Black Arts were cut, but nothing that was a huge loss, just some more ancillary ones. The archetype is going to be a large departure though.
* New Hex Weave: Hex Decelerate. A bit of an odd one, I have a lot of hopes for this one.
* New Feats: Lingering Void and Umbral Grace. Void was the only path that didn't have its own feat, and Umbral Grace is sweet.
* New Trait: Occult Seeker. Nothing amazing, just some retreading, but it's flavorful.
* New Racial FCB: Elf. They're smarter now, go figure.
Probably some other stuff in there too, a revamp of Dreadnaught and Reaper, so check it out.
Looked at the archetypes - very flavorful. The Covenant is intriguing, Soul Pact FTW… if it doesn't get a companion/familiar then you still have room for an archetype that does...
|
|
Looked at the archetypes - very flavorful. The Covenant is intriguing, Soul Pact FTW… if it doesn't get a companion/familiar then you still have room for an archetype that does...
Thank you, and decided to go with the name Anima Summoner. There's been a bit of change in the flavor for the Anima Summoner, but I'm personally very happy with this one.
Nemesis has had its name changed to Harbinger, which I think works better, some new racial FBCs,and slight change to Reapers.
Something I am very proud of is that every Archetype can be taken with at least one other, so none of them completely bars you from stacking them. My fave combination would probably be an Anima Summoner Reaper.
Wow. Lots of changes since I last looked at this. Looks pretty good, though. I might have more feedback later, when I've less on my plate.
Loving Anima Summoner and Harbinger as names. And stackable archetypes. I always liked the Bladebound/Hexcrafter/Spellblade Magus concept … ;)
|
|
Glad to see I've got some more interest in this.
* MECHANICAL UPDATE: HEX FUSION. Here's a big change, Hex Fusion may no longer increase Hex DCs. It now also has more of a limit on it, only being able to decrease the DC down to 10 + 1/2 Mystic Level.
*New Name: Mystic. I feared legal issues with the name, and this is a more generic name that gives me just as much freedom.
*Archetype updates: Anima Summoner, Dreadnaught, Reaper. Just some clean up jobs, making sure to really make these work.
* Magic Item update: Draught of Fell Knowledge. Now works on all Black Arts, not just ABTs and ABSs.
Removed the links, since they wouldn't do well in the format that I want. Aside from that, things seem pretty nice, pretty happy at how it's all turned out.
|
|
Hey everyone, need some advice on how to do something.
Anima Summoner, my fave archetype, is proving rather difficult. Right now the wording is rather muddy. It's hard to find wording that works, so right now I have three ideas for it.
1: Keep it as it is, muddy wording and all.
2: Remove the hit dice addition, basically making it a glorified Fiendish Boon. It'd probably include a few applications of the Advanced template.
3: Simply giving the archetype an Eidolon. I'd probably also decrease the damage from the Arcane Blast along with this, but it's probably the cleanest way of doing things.
I'm not a huge fan of one since it feels like it's awkward to accomplish (the hit dice wording is always going to be muddy). Two is okay, but it feels weak for dropping all of the Hexes, and still makes the Anima Spark a bit wonky. Three is the strongest, and I'm not sure how comfortable I feel giving a class like this something as strong as an Eidolon.
Let me know what you all think, I'll be doing more playtesting today.
I applaud removal of the increase to Hex Dc's of Hex Fusion - there is a resason there are few if any ways to increase a hex's DC.
Mystic isn't working for me - too broad and little specific flavor, but I love the archetype names.
As for the Anima Summoner question: I like the versatility of eidolons, and a lot of the abilities are kinda summoneresque (ethereal link, anima/dark anima spark), if you chose tthe fiendish boon option I'd feel it would have to be reskinned to be a bit less so specifically dark…
Regarding the eidolon option - you could slow down the evolution points for the anima-beast, or tweak it some other way - lower the BAB progression, hit dice, slow down the rate of/remove some special abilities gained….. Given the flavor of the anima beast as a spirit perhaps some incorporeality and lower HD and BAB than an eidolon could be in order...
|
|
Okay, got in a bit more playtesting, seems like Dhamphir might have to be lowered to 1/3 instead of 1/2.
New name, still tooling around with that, going with Harbinger now, seeing how that plays. Might go back to Mystic, but enjoying either more than Witcher.
* Updated Class Archetype: Anima Summoner. And solved the Eidolon issue, made it an aberration. Now it's 3/4ths BAB, lower HD, and everything else is fine. Class abilities are looking great for it, and I'm really glad with how things are going.
*New Feat: Anima Channeling. Just to have everything work out with a few things, mostly to make a Blood Kain Anima work, which was a huge goal here.
More playtesting next week, but I'm genuinely enjoying how this is going. Thanks to everyone for keeping eyes on this, it's been a lot of fun designing this.
What about Reaver for a name?
I like Harbinger. Reaver is too broad as well for me, especially with real world assocations of reavers and pirates/corsairs/raiders. Harbinger is slightly mysterious, and for the uninitiated upon first reading the name, and then finding that it has the eldritch powers it makes sense.
I do think there is an uber-descriptive word out there better than warlock, mystic, reaver, harbinger, forsaken etc that hasn't been posed yet...
Just noticed this recently: I don't think it needs to have a good fort save and a good will save. It seems a bit excessive for what it can do, especially at a long range.
Also, as "non-elemental" damage, the arcane blast is probably a little too powerful. It might be better (for balance purposes) as physical, negative energy, etc. or with a lower damage die or slower damage progression. As it stands now, it is too efficient at what it does.
Also, I still think the flight might give you too much mobility for too little investment.
I don't mean to put too much of a damper on things. I really like the idea of this class and want it to be workable. I just feel it does too much too well to be balanced.
|
|
Just noticed this recently: I don't think it needs to have a good fort save and a good will save. It seems a bit excessive for what it can do, especially at a long range.
Also, as "non-elemental" damage, the arcane blast is probably a little too powerful. It might be better (for balance purposes) as physical, negative energy, etc. or with a lower damage die or slower damage progression. As it stands now, it is too efficient at what it does.
Also, I still think the flight might give you too much mobility for too little investment.
I don't mean to put too much of a damper on things. I really like the idea of this class and want it to be workable. I just feel it does too much too well to be balanced.
I could live with that, the Fort was more of a throw in. Looking through the numbers, there's a few more 3/4ths classes with one good saving through than I thought, so I could drop Fort.
As for damage, this is something that I'm looking at more and more. This thing was able to keep up with a Synth Summoner, which isn't a great benchmark. I think I'll probably drop the damage die, since I'd rather keep the progression the same. It feels like it takes too long to get new damage dice as is, I don't want to delay that even further. I'd rather avoid an energy type, unless it was 'divine', which is basically typeless still.
By 9th level, full mages have Overland Flight, and everyone else bought their flying item already. This is the point in the game that flight is trivial, which is far better than it was at 6th level, which flight was still a magic and strange thing instead of assumed by the books.
It's not a damper, this is why it's hear. I want this kind of feedback.
Harbinger implies that it comes before something, that it ushers something in with its coming. So far, this seems broken. REALLY broken. Maybe this has already been answered, but some problems need to be addressed off the get go.
First, unless I'm mistaken, this effectively does force damage, unlimited number of times per day, at TOUCH, no less, up to 30 ft not provoking attacks of opportunity. It gets more powerful, can go further, and you can get MORE of them a round! This...I don't know of a way to make this seem less broken, because unlimited force damage by itself is ABSURD.
If this is addressed, I will give it a look further, but at this moment this glaring issue is unacceptable.
The name is always a point of contention, might go back to Mystic for that, which works. I wouldn't say broken, although it's outside of the PF power curve. Maybe a bit much for someone who's only played PF or not done a large amount of optimizing in 3.5
It's not really Force, but it's close. And most energy effects from mages are at touch, so that doesn't really bother me TOO much. The damage potential is an issue though, which is why I've wanted to get these playtested more. My table is mid-op, and I'd like to get some lower op data to see if this has "Summoner Syndrome", which is something that is too strong for a low op table due to minimum investment giving larger returns.
But damage is right now my biggest concern, so I want to think of how best to handle that.
I'll be putting damage under advisement, either slower or weaker on that end. I'd rather it be weaker, but again, I hate forestalling class features.
Thanks for all the opinions, I'll be putting them under consideration and such, and altering the class to function in a more balanced way. It's always hard to see these kinds of issues from a design perspective when it's your creation.
The Arcane Blast is not a problem at all. First of all, it is absolutely *not* force damage; if it were, it would deal full damage to incorporeal creatures. As it stands right now, it only deals half-damage to incorporeal creatures.
Second of all, the big thing you have to keep in mind is this is a 3/4 BAB class that doesn't really have any bonus combat ability to augment his attack/damage outside of the Skin of the Vile/Form of the Fallen abilities, which just give them some of the Polymorph spells and that's a whole nother kettle of fish. Every other class in the game has some ability to deal more damage, even Rogue's have Sneak Attack and Monk's get increased BAB and Flurry.
The Harbinger has no such ability; nor does he possess even 4th level casting. Instead, he can make a blast each round as a standard action. At 8th level, he can make 2 attacks as a full-round action, and at 15th level, he can make 3 attacks.
Let's say you totally twinked your Charisma and you've got something like a 50 Charisma (through templates, gear, spells what have you). At 20th level, you would deal 7d6+20 points of damage per attack. Since they are ranged touch attack, you're likely to see all 3 attacks hit. So, you've dealt 21d6+60 or an average of 133.5 points of damage. This sounds like a lot of damage, but it's really not, considering martials can do that same damage, with ease, ~10 levels earlier.
Keep in mind, the Harbinger doesn't get to benefit from things like Deadly Aim* because it's a ranged touch attack and Deadly Aim doesn't apply to touch attacks (guns being the exception). The Harbinger also has an incredibly high Charisma (one I'm not sure is possible outside template abuse), so the damage is actually going to be lower than that.
Now, sure, the damage dealt is more than that of a Wizard or Sorc's, but that also isn't their job. It's less than what the other 3/4 BAB classes can achieve, and significantly less than that of the full BAB classes can achieve.
*The melee option of Arcane Blast is different, but now the Harbinger has to hit normal AC, which means he's much less likely to actually hit on his attacks. It gets even worse if he uses Power Attack which, much like the Rogue or Monk will decrease his DPR.
=====================
@N.Jolly, one option for the damage could simply be 'from pure arcane power' much like dirge of the victorious knights. It's still, essentially, typeless damage, but it clears up whether it's force damage or not.
|
|
@Tels: Thanks for running the numbers. I wanted to, but I got caught up reading the chatter in the document, gave me a few ideas.
*New Class Feature: Novice Magic. Just something I like, it's useful.
*New Class Feature: Heretic's Curse. At first, I was iffy about this. The idea of a 'negative' class feature seemed odd. And then I remembered our friend, the Oracle. So thanks to them, the Mystic doesn't play well with the divine. This idea is still rough, so it's open to suggestion, but it does give the class a bit more flavor and a weakness.
*New Mechanic: Somatic components. Look at Arcane Blast and Black Arts. They now both have lines about needing somatic components. This keeps us from being impossible to pin down like a psion.
*Altered class feature: Poor Fort Save. Fort is down, didn't really fit the class that well, and it's now lame.
Pretty sure that's all for now, I really don't want to drop damage though, mostly because I don't want a lot of d4s needed for this class when d6s are so much easier to use. And I can't slow down the progression since there's some levels that only get the progression, which is lame.
@N. Jolly: Heretic's Curse you say? Our friend the Oracle? Maybe you should check out Into the Breach: The Oracle from Flying Pincushion Press. I think I mentioned it before upthread… It presents (among other things) an Alternative Oracle Class: The Warlock.
In THIS post, one of the designers says:
Our Warlock has the classic Eldritch blast with a few new twists like adding the damage to melee attacks if you want or making a glaive from your eldritch power.
Instead of the old invocations, he gets Revelations. With the awesome amount of revelations presented by Paizo and other 3PPs you have a lot of flexibility to make the Warlock you want to play and play the heck out of it.
Parallel design at its finest. Approaching from either end of the design path to meet in the middle. :)
* I hate somatic components. Personal bias - ignore. But it does seem off-theme to me, but I do get a warlock/sorceror feel from your class...
|
|
@Oceanshieldwolf: You just seem to have your finger on the 3P pulse, it's impressive. While I can respect revelations instead of invocations/Black Arts, I like my version more, which is probably for the best, since I'd hate to be jealous of someone else's work.
I honestly think their's will be nice though. And as for somatic, it's a 'magey' class, and somatic components kind of help with that feel. And it makes it slightly easier to pin down, although somatic components are right now simply being tested out.
*New name: Invoker. This'll be my last name change for a while, getting burnt out on them, but I'm really into this one. It feels more 'dark' while still being original.
*Altered Class Feature: Arcane Blast. Just some word clearing up, some language borrowed from Eldritch Blast, nothing major. The range was pumped though to 60 ft, since 30 ft was almost kissing distance.
*Altered Black Art: Spiderweb Chaos. This ability no longer gives it a save, which in all honestly made it a worse ability than Umbral Explosion. You can still save against the ABTs being used, but no matter what you're taking damage and being forced to save against them.
*Altered Black Arts: Umbral Explosion and Arcane Cannon. Wording cleaned up, nothing major. Might expand A. Cannon to 10 ft to start, since it still feels weak to me.
*Altered Black Art: Devoured by Darkness. I love this, so now the cha bonus to damage is increased too, and the second hit at 15th level also gets the bonus to damage. In exchange, the time needed to recover Grim Focus afterwards has been boosted by two whenever Devoured by Darkness is used. This is to allow it to keep up damage wise. Also now it only needs to bring an opponent to 0 or lower instead of killing them.
*Altered Archetype ability: Psyche Pact. Another baby of mine, there's no glowing rune to associate with you and the Anima, instead making your minds blank. It's a buff, but the debuff from Outsider to Aberration is pretty noticeable, plus it's pretty flavorful.
*Altered Archetype ability: Arcane Overweave. This now gives a bonus to attack for every 4 levels you have, which is more in keeping with the more melee oriented character who'd take this, so I feel comfortable with it.
Have some more stuff to change, but it's all minor.
|
|
I'd equate this to a Green Lantern. We've got some people of average intelligence wielding the ring, but the creativity they show (which I feel falls under Charisma) is what makes their powers useful. I think it's because it's easy to put a lot of emphasis on intelligence that the separation was made in 3.0/etc.
As I was saying, the notion that creativity is something other than the essential aspect of intelligence is based on a fallacy from elsewhere. It's like how the Perform skill is based off of the same ability as Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate - I happen to be a pretty good actor, and trust me, contrary to the broader stereotype, it's about mental power, not social skills.
Like it's easy to say it all came from intelligence, but sectioning it off helped make more diverse, which is why I stand by keeping it as a Charisma based class. That, and also I really like Charisma casters, since Charisma is a needless stat most of the time so giving it some value makes me happy. I want people to be drawn to PCs of this class, to wonder what makes them so alluring, so terrifying, so wordlessly attractive.
Diversity is good, and like I said, it makes sense for some arcane magicians, like Bards and Summoners (as well as Binders, who are technically neither arcane nor divine) - but I saw it creep to the point of becoming the rule rather than the exception (whereas people seem fine with Wisdom remaining the default statistic for divine magicians), and Warlocks simply got caught up somewhere around the middle of that tide. The thing is, even it isn't always their single most towering attribute, arcane magicians should be smart. I already don't like the idea of this new "Bloodrager" class that can, as some have put it, toss a fireball in spite of having no idea what they're doing - I can see that for divine magic (since you can be more or less puppeteered by a Higher Power), but arcane magic means YOU are wielding power that, even if it might have come to you from somewhere else previously, is now YOURS ALONE, and that requires the ability to think. Think of how 2nd Edition rules requires minimums in certain statistics in order to play most classes, even if those statistics weren't otherwise the core of the class - 3.0 did away with such things, but one can do almost as well now by including class features that demand certain ability minimums (this might not be the best example, but think of how pre-Pathfinder Paladins needed to wind up with at least 14 Wisdom for their spells, even though Strength and Charisma were generally their most important abilities).
As I'd previously mentioned, it makes sense for some styles of magic to be dependent on more than one faculty - why not make this one of those classes? That was what I was thinking when I looked at the 3.5 Warlock (just as a fossilized example): Apply Charisma as a bonus to Eldritch Blast damage and as the determinant of certain invocation effects (like dark one's own luck), while Intelligence governs most everything else (like DCs and even Eldritch Blast attack rolls, either as bonus to or substitute for Dexterity).
I'm really liking the Heretic's curse. It's flavorful, and really helps to balance out the Invoker's strengths. Requiring somatic components for the blasts and some black arts was a good call, too. Otherwise, you could do some pretty crazy things, like shoot things while completely tied up.
Yeah... my Invoker's somatic component will *always* be the Kamehameha formation :P