Does shadow conjuration create dim light so u can use hide in plain sight? Or is there a way to create dim light so u can hide?
Shadow conjuration can mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (creation) spell of 3rd level or lower.
Darkness is an evocation spell. So no way to 'dim the light' per se.
About the best you could do I think would make a fog cloud and use that for cover which you could then stealth using.
If someone could lay down a darkness for you, or if you have a high enough UMD you could use a scroll or wand of darkness or even greater darkness depending on how high the light levels were.
Your Shadow Power ability at 8th level gives you Shadow Evocation, which can be used to cast Darkness.
You could also be a Drow and take the Drow feats that eventually give you the ability to cast Deeper Darkness at will, not to mention several other nice spells.
Scrolls / Wands / Custom Magic items of some sort.
Also a Darklight Lantern.
Except I am pretty sure he is going to rule darkness is not dim light.
I was looking into the dust of twilight spell with a wand but umd isn't a class skill and have a 10 cha. Also not sure if this would work enough for the investment.
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A torch offers "normal light" within 20 feet. It offers "dim light" out from 20 feet to 40 feet.
The Light spell offers light as a torch and has the same range of illumination and dim illumination. Continual flame and an everburning torch fall into this range.
A sunrod provides "normal light" within 30 feet. It offers "dim light" out from 30 feet to 60 feet. a hooded lantern offers light at these ranges.
A common lantern offers "normal light" out to 15 feet with "dim light being out to 30 feet after the initial 15.
A candle only provides “dim light” and then only to a range of 5 feet.
Those are your most common sources of light inside. Even a "well lit" room usually has some "dim light" in it if it is big enough or has obstructions in it to provide shadows.
Anything past the “dim light” radius is considered “darkness”
Now the Darkness spell states “This spell causes an object to radiate darkness out to a 20-foot radius. This darkness causes the illumination level in the area to drop one step, from bright light to normal light, from normal light to dim light, or from dim light to darkness. This spell has no effect in an area that is already dark. Creatures with light vulnerability or sensitivity take no penalties in normal light. All creatures gain concealment (20% miss chance) in dim light. All creatures gain total concealment (50% miss chance) in darkness. Creatures with darkvision can see in an area of dim light or darkness without penalty. Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness. Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness.”
In other words pretty much all light sources except the Daylight spell (which is one of the few spells which makes “bright light” and not “normal light”) are reduced to “dim light” within the area of a Darkness spell, assuming of course the light making spell is not a higher level than Darkness (notice it says spell level and not caster level). If you cast Darkness inside when a Daylight spell is not active, you are in “dim light” and as a Shadow dancer are all up on it super hiding and being a total BA….
Them there the rules
That is my view as well @thejeff, and I am the gm in question. The issue should be finding that band of dim light as mswbear provided. Or not messing up the rest of the party of humans by using darkness effects.
Ud think since sd is core it would have been well defined by now. But whatever just trying to get the most out of what looked like a cool ability.
Dark light lantern looks promising since it doesn't say it completely covers up non magical light. Would carrying this thing around create a aura of dim light. But then if it got dim I guess ud have to leave it behind or it would turn it into darkness. Ya got 2 humans in the party. One with daylight. My thoughts are more about having a way to remain hidden while scouting not necessarily while in combat. Although striking from the shadows and then melding back into them sounds really bad ass.
I wouldn't expect a lot of cooperation when it comes to spreading darkness about with a paladin and a cleric of lawful good around. One is already saying he is detecting evil on me cause I am useing the shadows and threatening to kill my shadow clone.
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Not quite that simple.
Since Darkness suppresses nonmagical sources of light, inside you generally wind up in Darkness not dim light. If, for example, a large room was lit with torches spaced so that it was normal light everywhere, casting Darkness would create a 20' radius in which those torches didn't shed light, thus producing full Darkness, with normal light outside of the radius.
Casting it outside in normal sunlight would create Dim Light. Or in an area lit by magic it couldn't suppress.
So you are saying that the darkness spell creates an area of darkness "illumination" and those nonmagical sources of light do not increase that to dim light as per the spell text and then higher level magic would only increase it to "dim light"?
If that is the case, which actually rereading more carefully I do believe you are correct. Then how is it not just solid darkness in daylight since normal "bright day sunlight" is still not a magical source? Just curious. I had always read Darkness as it interacting with light sources but the way it is written it is actually light sources attempting to interact with the Darkness spell....
I suggest not over thinking the dim light issue. There are really only two conditions dim light is hard to find. A lit featureless room and full darkness. A shadow dancer can hide in any shadow other than his own. This means other creatures trees rocks etc. If in a dungeon condition and 1 pc has a tirch then shadows are everywhere.
As for the darkness spell it changes light conditions in a non dungeon enviroment in the day this gives... dim light.
Where I think balance worries come into play is with haste u get a free move action. So in theory u could make a full attack. Free move stealth every round.
Btw I'm a fighter sd not rogue
Where I think balance worries come into play is with haste u get a free move action. So in theory u could make a full attack. Free move stealth every round.
Uhh Haste does not give you a free move. There is a debate about wether you can hide as a 5 ft step but thats a seperate issue.
the thing is HIPS is not invisibility, there is no need to create obstacles for it. Because if your shadow dancer is popping in and out and not moving very far the bad guys have a good idea where you are.
Its diferent from the Snipe option for stealth where they have no idea where it comes from.
but really there are shadows everywhere, shadow dancers can hide in creatures shadows table shadows tree shadows every shadow but their own. If there is light around them and that light hits a creature or object it makes shadows.
there isnt really any need to pick it apart. If you let the PC hide with a 5ft step, the monsters still have a good idea where he is. If you dont then hes only getting one attack.
either way its not a big deal
Where has that been clarified at? It isn't worded the same as the assassin's ability.
How about Dyso's Travel Canopy:
Looks like this would work without cramping your party when in daylight. Of course, it would mark your square, but hey it is only 750gp.
/cevah
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Did a quick search and could not find. I thought I have seen this question asked and answered, perhaps unofficially, somewhere.
The post you are looking for is THIS ONE.
With that said, it seems clear that some sort of shadow and dim light are exchangeable phrases.
Dim light is a defined term in Pathfinder.
Further, I see no reason why shadowdancer HiPS would point out that the shadowdancer can not hide in his own shadow if shadows don't count as dim light. If that were the case, then shadowdancer HiPS should not say that a shadowdancer cannot hide in his own shadow. Instead it should say that shadowdancers can't hide in any shadow.
The phrase some shadow is a hold over from 3.5 and should be read as dim light. The sentence at the end that states a Shadowdancer cannot hide in it's own shadow is most likely also a hold over from the 3.5 wording in the ability and has next to zero meaning since a person's shadow does not constitute an area of dim light.
In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness. A creature within an area of dim light can make a Stealth check to conceal itself. Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch.
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That is my view as well @thejeff, and I am the gm in question. The issue should be finding that band of dim light as mswbear provided. Or not messing up the rest of the party of humans by using darkness effects.
By RAW you are correct; HiPS, Shadow Jump, and Shadow Master only work in or around areas of Dim Light. Darkness is never mentioned as a qualifying light level for any of their abilities. I am not trying to encroach on how you run/balance your game but I would share another opinion. When I have GMd I let the abilities function in Darkness as well. This is for several reasons, but the short version is I think it's ridiculous not too. Also, my GMs have always allowed these abilities to function in Darkness for their own reasons and I have never seen it create balance issues, YMMV.
My opinion on allowing SD abilities in Darkness:
I believe RAW clearly states dim light is the only qualifying light level for Shadowdancers. The Assassin's HiPS is the same way when taking into consideration designer statements about shadow and dim light being synonymous. This may or may not have been intentional. It is possible that the intention was that they must be in "at least" dim light, however, the fluff descriptions don't seem to imply that. It seems to be RAI for the Shadowdancer that their powers only function in dim light, not darkness. However, I allow these abilities to function in darkness and every DM I have played under allow these abilities in darkness as well. For me, this is mainly for two reasons:
1. I don't agree with building a PrC that only functions in one out of four light levels. Especially, when that light level is one of the rarest light levels for a PC party to be operating in.
2. Making these abilities function only in dim light and not in darkness devastates the usefulness of these PrCs for any underground races and cultures. That ruling would cripple any Assassins and make Shadowdancers nearly useless in any Dwarven, Duergar, Drow, Svirfneblins or Cave Orc societies. Some of these make for the most iconic Assassins and Shadowdancers IMO and I don't like the idea of them not being able to use their abilities in over 90% of their environment. Can you imagine a Dark Elf Assassin trying to sneak into the encampment of his target deep in some pitch black cave and being completely unable to hide from his enemies because they all have darkvision and his HiPS doesn't work in darkness? I can and I think it's absurd.
You actually don't get a lot of dim light (as defined by PF) in areas of shadow (flavor definition). Most people's concept of 'a shadow' doesn't constitute 'an area of dim light.' The shadow a large building casts across the ground at noon is certainly a shadow, but it's not an area of dim light.
Shadow conjuration can mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (creation) spell of 3rd level or lower.
can shadow conjured summoned creatures still use their SLAs and do any of the mosters available have darkness as an SLA?
I wouldn't expect a lot of cooperation when it comes to spreading darkness about with a paladin and a cleric of lawful good around. One is already saying he is detecting evil on me cause I am useing the shadows and threatening to kill my shadow clone.
Why? There is nothing inherently evil about darkness (both the condition and the spell), hiding, or sneaking, and the shadow you summon matches your alignment, so if YOU aren't evil, it isn't either.
I think you need to explain to those members of your party that none of this is evil.
Now, if the cleric and/or paladin happen to be very light-leaning, such as by having the Light domain, that may be a separate issue.
Agree with Shadowlord (appropriately for this thread) regarding dim light vs. total darkness.
Against creatures with only normal, or low-light vision, there's no problem, because the darkness provides concealment for hiding anyway, and you can't be observed. I cannot think of any situation in which you could possible have bright light and complete darkness right up against each other with no dim light between, so there should never be a situation in which complete darkness is nearby, but dim isn't, so you can't HIPS.
Against creatures with darkvision, the power often becomes completely useless if you read it as requiring dim light, and total darkness not being sufficient, since those creatures are often found in totally dark areas, yet see through that total darkness that would allow you to hide from the first group of sighted creatures above. Given that something like a drow Assassin or Shadowdancer feels like it should make sense, so should this ability be useful in situations they'd need it within their own society.
I wouldn't expect a lot of cooperation when it comes to spreading darkness about with a paladin and a cleric of lawful good around. One is already saying he is detecting evil on me cause I am useing the shadows and threatening to kill my shadow clone.
Assuming you are not Evil, your Shadow is also not Evil, it's alignment is set by your alignment. That said, if your Paladin or Cleric decide to kill it that makes them an unjustified aggressor against a non-Evil, non-aggressive victim... If I were the GM I would ensure they both understood that long before a sword was drawn. RP tension between characters is one thing, and can be good, but PvP is whole different game. You and your party should sit down with the GM and get on the same page as to whether or not the GM is running a PvP game. If it's not a PvP table, aggressive RP is all well and good and the characters can agree to disagree, maybe even come to appreciate each other. However, if the GM is going to allow PvP that changes things quite a bit. However, again assuming you are not Evil, the Paladin's code freely allows them to work with Good or Neutral characters so there is little reason this should get to the point of PvP.
Well it does say it's an undead shade and undead generally is bad in the cleric/paladin book. Also mythic haste grants an extra move action so that's where that came from.
It does say it is an undead shade.... Undead generally means bad... Also mythic haste gives a free move so that's where that came from.
The companion of the SD is as much undead as the animal companion of the druid is an animal...
Both are mechanically their own entities.
As Shadowlord wrote: RP tension is cool, PvP is not.
Ruyan.
I wouldn't expect a lot of cooperation when it comes to spreading darkness about with a paladin and a cleric of lawful good around. One is already saying he is detecting evil on me cause I am useing the shadows and threatening to kill my shadow clone.
As long as you're not committing any evil acts / crimes then you're in the clear. Any violent actions taken against you without valid justifications will not end well for a LG cleric, and definitely not for a paladin. I'm sure they'll come around, though you might need to convince them to help you out with those shadows. Not liking them much isn't a good excuse for bad teamwork.
I think that I agree with you Shadowlord and don't have a problem with using their abilities in darkness. This is mostly the distinction between shadows and dim light. (and the only situation that it has come up so far is in a smaller room that was lit by 2 continual lights, a daylight and a light spell. I ruled there was no dim light)
As for the undead part, it is mostly RP and not PvP, I don't like that behavior as well. But the game designers have told us that all undead are evil so the good religious type of thinking is accurate.
I think that I agree with you Shadowlord and don't have a problem with using their abilities in darkness. This is mostly the distinction between shadows and dim light. (and the only situation that it has come up so far is in a smaller room that was lit by 2 continual lights, a daylight and a light spell. I ruled there was no dim light)
I would agree.
As for the undead part, it is mostly RP and not PvP, I don't like that behavior as well.
That's good. Allowing PvP can work in some games with some groups, but most of the time it's just destructive and unproductive. My advice is to be up front with the whole party, and very clear about your thoughts and standards. It is easier to prevent the situation than to fix it after it's gotten out of control.
But the game designers have told us that all undead are evil so the good religious type of thinking is accurate.
The Shadowdancer's Shadow Companion is an exception. The SD player may want to explain that his shadow is no more or less corrupt than he is, it is an extension of himself and it is part of him. Tell the Paladin and Cleric to Detect Evil, and try to understand this new encounter rather than assume they know what's right and start killing things.
Summon Shadow (Su): At 3rd level, a shadowdancer can summon a shadow, an undead shade. Unlike a normal shadow, this shadow's alignment matches that of the shadowdancer, and the creature cannot create spawn. The summoned shadow receives a +4 bonus on Will saves made to halve the damage from positive channeled energy and the shadow cannot be turned or commanded. This shadow serves as a companion to the shadowdancer and can communicate intelligibly with the shadowdancer. This shadow has a number of hit points equal to half the shadowdancer's total. The shadow uses the shadowdancer's base attack bonus and base save bonuses.
The Shadowdancer's Shadow Companion is not a typical shadow. It is undead, but it's alignment follows the Shadowdancer's. It is, in many was, an extension of the Shadowdancer himself; it is part of him in the same way a Familiar is part of the Wizard.
If a shadow companion is destroyed, or the shadowdancer chooses to dismiss it, the shadowdancer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude save. If the saving throw fails, the shadowdancer gains one permanent negative level. A successful saving throw avoids this negative level. A destroyed or dismissed shadow companion cannot be replaced for 30 days.
An attack on the Shadow is no different than directly attacking the Shadowdancer.
It does say it is an undead shade.... Undead generally means bad...
Check out THIS Shadowdancer build.