swapping places with delayed / readied action?


Rules Questions


If two characters are side by side in battle - one wants to move to the other's square and vice versa. Neither has the "swap places (teamwork)" feat. Would they be able to trade places via sacrificing initiative and taking 5-foot steps? I know with movement you need to move to an unoccupied square, but with a readied or delayed action could the movement be considered synchronized such that they aren't landing in occupied squares?

I know of the swap places feat - I don't want to minimize the value of this, and I don't think I am by allowing a coordinated trade positions. The way I see it, if a character is willing to give up place in initiative and use their movement, they should be able to coordinate with an ally. With swap places, the true gain is in getting that free immediate action instead of having to wait and also sacrifice movement.

I'd like to get thoughts on this. It seems minor, but want to be fair. In a game I'm running, there was debate about two NPCs attempting to trade places in this way. In the end, I just flipped one of the two into an adjacent unoccupied square. It was of minor consequence. Later on however, PCs or enemies, I think if a front line and second line of fighters want to switch places during combat via coordinated 5 foot steps, I'd like to allow it if the rules don't flat out contradict it.

Sczarni

I think the only benefit of the feat is that you don't provoke an attack of opportunity.

If they're each willing to get hit, I'd let them do it.


For a 5 foot step, unless moving through enemy squares, would an attack of opportunity exist? In this case, front liner would 5 foot step away, back liner would five foot step into a threatened square. Neither would be traveling through multiple threatened squares.

Sczarni

That seems more powerful of an ability than the feat that already exists, though.


If there was no back line, the front liner could take a 5 foot step away without drawing any attacks of opportunity. Isn't that true?

That said, I appreciate the feedback and maybe that's a fair trade-off. The 5 foot step away would be treated as a move action instead.


Okay, so a follow-up to this... First, what's the benefit of swap places, and what are the limitations?

PRD wrote:
Benefit: Whenever you are adjacent to an ally who also has this feat, you can move into your ally's square as part of normal movement. At the same time, your ally moves into your previous space as an immediate action.

So does this mean, if you have a line of 4 allies, all with this feat, that the guy in back could move to the front of the line in one move action? It says "as part of normal movement", so #4 would swap with #3, then #2, then #1, and end up in front. Could there be empty spaces between allies, such that you'd move 30', some of which would be swaps? That's how I read it, which makes it fairly strong as a feat and really useful with a large phalanx of organized soldiers.

Secondly, without the feat, how many rounds, at minimum, would the same procedure take?

Suppose for simplifying sake, we have 4 players in a dead-end 5-foot wide cave with a low ceiling (no climbing allowed, but not a squeeze cave). The mouth of the cave is swarmed by enemies. The fighter of the group is in the very back. Not one PC has swap places, as a feat. Technically, for any one player, there are no legal places to move to.

This is where I'm thinking, player 2nd-to-rear (#3) readies an action to move 5' as soon as player #4 moves out of his square. This would be a readied standard move, not a 5' step since it involves coordination with the ally. Player #4 says, "Hey, I got no legal squares to move to, but I'm going to move forward through the line of allies, and... if a spot opens up, I'll take it, otherwise, I'll move back to my original square."

So here's where question #1 comes up:
Can a player take a move action that starts and ends in their own square. Meaning, can a player move 10' forward through allies, then 10' back, into his own legal square. Or, similar to with obstacles, if there's not legal square to move into, he'd technically not be moving at all, nixing the whole thing and never truly moving from his own square?

Alright, so part 2:
Does player #4 still have a standard or move action now that they've advanced 5' and had their original square taken? If so could player #2 have declared a similar readied action? Supposing this is true, then player #4 pops over into player #2's square, then player #2 fills in to old player #3's spot. (end of round 1)

Round 2:
Similar situation with player #1, where they declare the readied action to move back 5', provided the opportunity arises and player #4 pops into player #1's square. Player #1 and player #4 expose themselves to AoO's since they are both moving through threatened squares and neither is a 5' step. I'm saying this because player #4, while only ENTERING a threatened square initially would declare his move to go forward, then back... but due to player #1's readied action, would be forced to stand still in the new spot. Now player #4 has made it into the lead spot and can still perform a move or standard action. Player #2 took his readied action, which again, I'd rule as not a 5' step and would be out of actions until the next round.

Is this a fair interpretation of the rules? It takes 1.5 rounds to get to the front of the pack, from the back, if no teamwork feats have been taken. Further, player #1 is stuck in the lead spot, in combat for up to 2 rounds and is open to AoO's. And finally, all who take readied actions are losing their standard action for the rounds they did so.

Another option would be for player #1 to delay to just before player #4's turn, at which point they'd drop prone and intentionally go 'helpless' so that player #4 could occupy his square. This would open him to full-round coup de gratis actions should the enemy deem it worthwhile. That would get player #4 to the front in 1 round, but expose #4 to AoO's and c'd'g' attempts until they decided to get up or crawl, exposing them to a 2nd round of AoO's.

Is there a better way? Should I disallow swapping places without the feat altogether? Can a player take an intended move action forward and back through allies even if a legal square is not available? In other words, if I say, "I'm going to tap Bob on the shoulder then return to my original square, the original square being my only legal option", do I actually move?

Sczarni

Just be sure you are adjacent to the character you wish to swap places with. I see no limitation on the number of allies you can swap places with other than the one immediate action that they require.

I don't think there is a # of minimum rounds, because you can't occupy an ally's space otherwise unless they are prone (at least AFAIK).

One of your allies could drop prone and crawl back while you stand in their space.

*headsplosion* It's too late for me. I'd say this is all a moot point unless you are designing some sort of army for your players to fight.

Sczarni

This would be so much easier to practice in person, using chess pieces.


Nefreet wrote:
I don't think there is a # of minimum rounds, because you can't occupy an ally's space otherwise unless they are prone (at least AFAIK).

You can by using the squeezing rules, IIRC. But probably not with a 5ft step.

The bonus of this feat is simply you can swap as soon as you're in one of the "teamworkers" turn. No need to prepare an action, lost initiative and action (OK, the initiator of the swap still lose a move action).

In a way, you can argue that you don't really lose your move action if the swapper is big or bigger, because you couldn't afford the swap by a 5ft. step.

It's a niche feat IMO, and it matters more for the swapped than the swapper.


You can't stand in a prone player's square, just a helpless player's square, so can a player voluntarily drop limp and go helpless?

In going helpless, they can't crawl until the next round.

Squeeze rules don't allow ending in another player's square.

Given it is turn-based, RAW, it seems there's no legal way to swap.

Im running a campaign filled with 5 ft wide tunnels that dead end with an illusion of an enemy, where the party is then surprised by enemies approaching from a secret door they missed.

No, not really, but it's an annoying thing to know in realilty I could dos y dos with someone, but in combat I can't get around RAW.

Shadow Lodge

No, you cannot choose to become helpless. Helpless is a condition that you gain for certain things that are listed within the condition text.

Helpless wrote:
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

The only one of these that you can really choose to do is sleep and that doesn't happen right away.

Shadow Lodge

More on topic. I would let two readied/delayed actions to swap places but it would require a normal move action by path parties (that would provoke).

Or you could just make your tunnels 10' wide instead. Are you asking because a player asked or as part of your dungeon design?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Readied actions can interrupt other actions by the nature of how an Immediate Action works. So readying an action to swap places with an ally is entirely viable as I see it... but takes P1's standard and immediate actions and P2's move or free action (if 5' step). That's not too bad, but requires planning and the loss of a standard action.

The teamwork feat's benefit is you only lose ONE move action in total, and it doesn't take pre-planning before the actual maneuver takes place.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

You could do this with readied actions, but that's expensive because readying an action is a standard action even if the action you're readying is the "not an action" five foot step.

You can enter an ally's square (usually to move through it), you just can't stay there.

WARNING: Bad ASCII "art"

_*
X*********
XA_._B
X*********
_*

A is holding the head of the corridor. B wants to swap places with A.

The simple way is for A to delay until just before B's initiative. A would five foot step into the empty space behind him, then B would move through A's space into contact with X. But what if B is already adjacent ?

*
X*********
XAB
X*********
*

B could ready an action to five foot step up when A has left his square. A performs a withdraw action, moving through ally B's space to the space behind B. B's readied action interrupts A's withdrawal and B steps up into the square vacated by A. A completes his withdraw by moving up to the space vacated by B. Again, the cost is that A didn't get to do anything except his withdraw action.


SlimGauge wrote:


A is holding the head of the corridor. B wants to swap places with A.

The simple way is for A to delay until just before B's initiative. A would five foot step into the empty space behind him, then B would move through A's space into contact with X. But what if B is already adjacent ?

*
X*********
XABC***
X*********
*

B could ready an action to five foot step up when A has left his square. A performs a withdraw action, moving through ally B's space to the space behind B. B's readied action interrupts A's withdrawal and B steps up into the square vacated by A. A completes his withdraw by moving up to the space vacated by B. Again, the cost is that A didn't get to do anything except his withdraw action.

And what about here, where A has no free spaces? Would you allow A to declare a move action to (and from) illegal square B is occupying? B has a readied

Move into A's spot if/when A moves. A starts their
Move and is stuck in B's old spot.

Shadow Lodge

Korwynne wrote:
SlimGauge wrote:


A is holding the head of the corridor. B wants to swap places with A.

The simple way is for A to delay until just before B's initiative. A would five foot step into the empty space behind him, then B would move through A's space into contact with X. But what if B is already adjacent ?

*
X*********
XABC***
X*********
*

B could ready an action to five foot step up when A has left his square. A performs a withdraw action, moving through ally B's space to the space behind B. B's readied action interrupts A's withdrawal and B steps up into the square vacated by A. A completes his withdraw by moving up to the space vacated by B. Again, the cost is that A didn't get to do anything except his withdraw action.

And what about here, where A has no free spaces? Would you allow A to declare a move action to (and from) illegal square B is occupying? B has a readied

Move into A's spot if/when A moves. A starts their
Move and is stuck in B's old spot.

That's essentially what he did in his second example.

look at it in terms of actions and when they happen, like Slim described it, and it should make more sense.


Essentially, but not exactly. The difference is player A does not have a legal square to move to (end in) when they declare their move. Based on some of the obstacle wording, a player makes no advancement if declaring such a move.

I agree it should be the same, but if following RAW, can a player intentionally declare a move that ends in an illegal square? I would say yes, since allies aren't obstacles.

Shadow Lodge

There is no rule (that I know of) that states you have to have a legel square to end your movement on when you start moving. So long as you do end in a legal square you can start moving through allies squares all you want. And, even if you do end in an illegal square, rules say you get shunted to the closest legal square, which would then be the one player B just left.

So, player B readies an action to move into player A's square once it's open. A starts his movement and moves through B. B's readied action happens and interrupts A's movement. B moves (5' step possibly) to A's previous square. B could even attack the enemy in front of him if that was stated as part of his readied action (with only one attack). A is now in a legal square and can stop there or keep going to complete his move. I'm not going into AoOs because that's irrelivent to the discussion.


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Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Korwynne wrote:
And what about here, where A has no free spaces? Would you allow A to declare a move action to (and from) illegal square B is occupying?

A could argue that he wants to leave his square, enter B's square, then C's square, touch the wall, reenter B's square and return to his original square. That would be a perfectly legal move. However, when he arrives in B's square, B isn't there anymore, having used his readied action to step into A's original square. So A elects to stay in B's original square, or if A moves back into A's original square (now occupied by B), A would get shunted back out since he can't end his move there.


What the RAW states and this is where the contemplation began, is Person A wants to ready an action to move to Players B square when player B moves. They are adjacent to each other with no other spaces to move..Player B is behind Player A.

From what RAW says is that a readied action interrupts and actually is performed BEFORE the action that triggered it, so in essence..Player B has not moved yet since player A's triggered ready action will occur BEFORE player B's action. Now, you cant end your movement in a space occupied by another of the same size, since Player A would move into the still occupied space as player B and end his move, the move is not possible, remember, player B hasnt moved yet due to his action was interrupted by player A's triggered action.

So by RAW do you let them? I can see this being abused in larger tactical actions.

Grand Lodge

This is totally allowed.. I stopped reading half way through the posts, but it looks like most of them are over-complicating it.

Person A readies to move "while B is moving". Then person B moves. Person A's readied action goes off and he moves. Simple and done.

Bonus: You can take a 5' step as part of your readied action if you didn't move during your turn. Person A can ready to do any action he wants "while B is moving" and can thus buff/attack/aid/whatever and still take his 5' step.

edit:

Halfway-Hagan wrote:
What the RAW states and this is where the contemplation began, is Person A wants to ready an action to move to Players B square when player B moves.

No, Person A readies an action to move (full stop). They do not have to declare where they're moving to until they start moving.


The way I see it, you want to friendly switch, you take the "Friendly Switch" Feat, otherwise, why that specific feat exists?

Otherwise, by RAW, the operation fails.

A readies an action to move into B square when he starts moving. B starts moving, but still has not moved. A tries to enter B's space and stop there, and he can't, so he gets back to his initial position, failing to move; then B procedes to finish his actions, tries to move where A is standing and fails due the same reason.

Involved rules:

Ending Your Movement

You can't end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.

Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space

Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it's not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there's a legal position that's closer.

Grand Lodge

Numarak wrote:
The way I see it, you want to friendly switch, you take the "Friendly Switch" Feat, otherwise, why that specific feat exists?

The feat lets you do it with an immediate action instead of having to ready your standard action. The feat is still better.

Quote:

Otherwise, by RAW, the operation fails.

A readies an action to move into B square when he starts moving. B starts moving, but still has not moved. A tries to enter B's space and stop there, and he can't, so he gets back to his initial position, failing to move; then B procedes to finish his actions, tries to move where A is standing and fails due the same reason.

It only fails because you don't have a good trigger. Ready it for "while they're moving" or "when they vacate their square" instead of "when they start their movement". Both of those triggers would go off before they end their movement. This fixes your whole situation.


My argumentation is simple: why create a feat that does what you say if you can do it without the feat? Because without the feat, you can't do it.

Now, on your triggers.

"while they're moving" is not a valid trigger. Either you act before the action (ready), or after (delay) but there is no option to act in between an action. Exemple: I ready my action if A attacks me. Then A declares full-attack on me; I can't act after the second iterative attack of A, I will act immediatly before A attacks me. So with this trigger, you will start moving *before* your friend leaves his square.

"when they vacate their square" I have to agree that that is a better trigger, but still I believe is not a correct one. Let's read Ready an action, it says:

Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it.

So, the action occurs just before the trigger, your action then, occurs just before "when they vacate their square", so if it occurs just before the trigger, it just follows that they haven't yet vacated their square, and you incur in the same problem: you can not end your movement on an occupied square.

You can think of many different triggers, but there won't be any that satisfy the clause "you can't end your movement on an occupied square", making the operation of switch impossible to succeed in the given circumstances. That's why the existance of Friendly Switch.

EDIT: what you try to accomplish without the feat reminds me of two persons trying to occupy the square occupied by the other, both waiting the other person to move and make free room for them, but neither of them begining to move because they are waiting for the other to move first. Deathlock. Things will be different if there was more room to roam about, but in your case? No. No way to find a corrrect trigger without breaking the movement rules.


Several thoughts:
1) A player does not have to declare where they are ending their movement.
2) It is legal to move through another character as part of a move action.
3) A readied action goes off before the trigger which activates it.

So in the case of 3 characters in a 5' x 15' corridor/cave with enemies in front of one of the characters, you can't shift, but with a 5' x 20' corridor/cave, you should be able to have a legal set of actions/triggers to shift.

xxxxx
EABCx
xxxxx

E = Enemy
A = Character with Readied Action
B = Character wishing to move (or C)

Readied Action trigger - move to open space when B (or C) vacates their space. Since the readied action interrupts and occurs before the action which triggered it (B leaving or C leaving their square), the squares are still occupied & the readied action is wasted or cannot trigger.

When the space in question has at least one open square, the diagram looks like this:

xxxxxx
EABCVx
xxxxxx

V= Vacant space

Readied action trigger 1 - move to B's starting space when B enters vacant space V.
1) B starts moving to V.
2) When B gets to space C as part of the movement to V, B shares the space with C as part of movement, the readied action then triggers before B enters V, thus A can move to B's starting space. B is allowed to share space with C during movement, thus the trigger of "where B enters a specific space" can occur before the condition exists, which is before movement ends, but after the movement starts.

Note this is similar to readying an action to do something during an enemy's movement, such as Ready an Action to attack with a reach weapon when the enemy leaves a threatened square. That type of readied action occurs in the middle of movement, based on movement of an enemy, and can stack with an AoO.

3) B can then continue movement, touching the back wall of the cave, then moving to A's starting space. This assumes enough movement on B's part and an interest in switching places so that B is now the front of the group facing the enemy.

Readied action trigger 2 - move to open space V when C enters B's (or (A's) starting space. Again, since the open space is available, you either trigger before C moves (for entering B's space trigger) or before C moves past B (for entering A's space trigger). In both cases V is a valid empty location to which A can move, thus A can move through B & C and get to that space. Then C can continue movement and eventually end in C's starting space or in A's starting space depending on C's desire.


Thinking about the trigger a little more, if the trigger is something like "when B touches the back cave wall", you can have the 5' x 15' cave and have a legal trigger to switch places:

xxxxx
EABCx
xxxxx

E = Enemy
A = Character with Readied Action
B = Character wishing to move (or C)

B declares movement to space C
B declares as part of movement will touch back wall
A readied action triggers in middle of B's movement after B has entered square with C, but before B touches back wall
A moves to B's starting space
B then touches the wall continues movement, and ends up in A's starting space
Switch is done.

xxxxx
EBACx
xxxxx

The readied action could also be do a standard action attack and 5' step back when B touches wall, or when B says "shift", etcetera.

In other words, shifting with either of B or C is possible, but costs a readied action on one character's part and a move action on the other.


Look, the RAW is pretty clear. It can't be done. Rules-lawyering the wording on the ready trigger is just metagaming your way around the rules. I shoot all those down at my table by a simple what-if question: "What if the thing you want to happen doesn't, could you still take the action you're attempting?" If the answer is no, then I don't allow the initial action in the first place.

In practice, this works like this:
Andy: On my turn, I ready an action so that when Bill moves into my square, I move into Bill's square.
Bill: On my turn, I move into Andy's square and stop there.
Me: So, Bill, if something prevents Andy's readied action, could you still take the action you're attempting?
Bill: Like what?
Me: Oh, anything. Maybe an enemy has a readied action and casts Hold Person on Andy. Or maybe Andy just changes his mind. Whatever. Could you still take this action?
Bill: No, I guess not. I could't stop in that square.
Me: OK. In that case, you cannot simply state you'll take an illegal action based on an expectation that something that hasn't happened and might not happen will make your choice legal AFTER you begin the illegal action.

Is that a RAW rule that I apply? No. But I don't like players turning a tactical simulation in to a rules courtroom and bending and breaking rules, dashing through every tiny loophole, and making a parody of the combat system.

So I simply insist that every player takes actions that are allowed when they take the action.

That said...

The Roman legions used this very tactic all the time. And they didn't occupy 5'x5' squares - they stood much closer together than 5' apart. The front guy would fight for a while then rotate to the back of a 4-man column so the guy behind him, fresh and not exhausted or injured, could step forward and fight while the tired guy could rest at the back for a bit before his turn came around again.

Arguably, by Pathfinder rules, this means that all those Roman soldiers had the feat to switch places. Maybe. They did have tons of training. But by that logic, each Roman soldier, even the newest recruits, might have had a dozen feats. They couldn't all be that high-level...

While this application of game rules applied to IRL history starts to break down, the simulationist in me says I should just allow characters to ready actions to switch places. It's actually easy enough to do (especially if everyone is standing 5' apart).

Long story short, I throw RAW right out the window here and allow it, but I know it's a house rule.

Grand Lodge

Numarak wrote:

My argumentation is simple: why create a feat that does what you say if you can do it without the feat? Because without the feat, you can't do it.

Now, on your triggers.

"while they're moving" is not a valid trigger. Either you act before the action (ready), or after (delay) but there is no option to act in between an action. Exemple: I ready my action if A attacks me. Then A declares full-attack on me; I can't act after the second iterative attack of A, I will act immediatly before A attacks me. So with this trigger, you will start moving *before* your friend leaves his square.

"when they vacate their square" I have to agree that that is a better trigger, but still I believe is not a correct one. Let's read Ready an action, it says:

Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it.

So, the action occurs just before the trigger, your action then, occurs just before "when they vacate their square", so if it occurs just before the trigger, it just follows that they haven't yet vacated their square, and you incur in the same problem: you can not end your movement on an occupied square.

You can think of many different triggers, but there won't be any that satisfy the clause "you can't end your movement on an occupied square", making the operation of switch impossible to succeed in the given circumstances. That's why the existance of Friendly Switch.

EDIT: what you try to accomplish without the feat reminds me of two persons trying to occupy the square occupied by the other, both waiting the other person to move and make free room for them, but neither of them begining to move because they are waiting for the other to move first. Deathlock. Things will be different if there was more room to roam about, but in your case? No. No way to find a corrrect trigger without breaking the movement rules.

As for the edit, I already said the feat is better. The feat lets you use your immediate action instead of having to ready your standard action and lose your spot in the initiative. They are by no means doing the same thing.

Let's read the whole rule

Quote:

Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.

You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.

You can't say that I can't ready an action for the middle of some other character's action because it explicitly says I can.

About having to ready because of "an action" I completely disagree. There are four words that describe what you must define the trigger as from the above quote: "conditions", "condition", "action", and "activities". An action is singular, and it's plainly clear that you can describe your trigger to whatever you want.

If you want to follow the absolute wording of "the action occurs just before the action that triggers it" then you're precluding tons of super-legitimate readied actions. The simplest being, "I ready an attack to hit the first guy that gets near me." So when they get near you, your readied action goes off before they get near you and thus you can't hit them--no one is going to argue that that is what that line means.

DM_Blake wrote:

Look, the RAW is pretty clear. It can't be done. Rules-lawyering the wording on the ready trigger is just metagaming your way around the rules. I shoot all those down at my table by a simple what-if question: "What if the thing you want to happen doesn't, could you still take the action you're attempting?" If the answer is no, then I don't allow the initial action in the first place.

I agree, the RAW is pretty clear (completely clear even). It most definitely can be done. It takes an incredible amount of rules-lawyering to say it doesn't work.

To counter your question with the same example. I ready an action to hit the first thing that comes near me. If they don't approach me, then I can't hit them--because there's no one nearby to hit. Or are you going to tell me that you don't allow people to ready to move? Because that's essentially what this whole question boils down to. It basically sounds to me like you make your players set up readied actions that only have 100% chance of going off--which obviously doesn't always happen. Have you never "readied an action to attack someone as they cast a spell" and then they somehow move out of range/behind concealment/don't cast?


@RegUs PatOff:

The problem here is that there is no free space to move to. The picture here is like follows:

XXXXX
XEABX
XXXXX

Where X is a wall or a closed door, something that stops non incorporeal movement anyway. E being an enemy, and A and B being the PCs who want to switch places.

So there is no place for A to go to in first instance.

@DM_Blake:

Even though I like your houserule about this matter, the point is that this being the rules' forum, I try, to the best of my knowledge, to give answers based on RAW.

Grand Lodge

Numarak wrote:

@RegUs PatOff:

The problem here is that there is no free space to move to. The picture here is like follows:

XXXXX
XEABX
XXXXX

Where X is a wall or a closed door, something that stops non incorporeal movement anyway. E being an enemy, and A and B being the PCs who want to switch places.

So there is no place for A to go to in first instance.

@DM_Blake:

Even though I like your houserule about this matter, the point is that this being the rules' forum, I try, to the best of my knowledge, to give answers based on RAW.

It doesn't matter if there's no free space to end his movement in. If A wanted to, A could spend his entire turn moving 60' between the space A is currently in to the space B is in (and back and forth until all movement is expended) because you are allowed to move through your allies. So for half of his turn, A's current space is empty--at any one of those points B's readied action can go off and he can move into the empty space that A was in.


@Claudekennilol:

It was you who said that there is an easy trigger for making this possible, on the other hand, I say there is no such easy way to spell out this action without breaking the simple rule of:

Ending Your Movement

You can't end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.

Simple like that. No with a switch places movement. One of the PCs could walk 10 feet, or 15 and the go back to where the other was, but he can't move into the other's square unless he is helpless.

Either triggered action happens before or after, but not at the same time as you are suggesting; it is not that one of the PCs is occupying an interdimensional space between squares while the other is moving.

What you are implying is that A starts moving to where B is, our possibilities are:

Option 1) A has not moved yet, so B can not move and end his movement where A is placed.

Option 2) A has moved to where B is, and B has not moved yet, then A stops moving and B will start to move; problem is that A ends his movement on the same square that B is still occupying, so A gets back to his former position.

There is no such option 3) where A and B are simultaneously moving. One always will move before the other does.


They are side by side: there is no space between A and B.

I would not have any problem if A goes 30 Feet to his right, and B readies "as soon as A leaves his space, I take his place"

What I'm trying to say is that when there is no space in between both, they can't switch places with a 5 Feet step. One of them has to move around.


claudekennilol wrote:
To counter your question with the same example. I ready an action to hit the first thing that comes near me. If they don't approach me, then I can't hit them--because there's no one nearby to hit.

That's no counter. Readied Actions are, by RAW, a gamble. The book says so. When you ready an action you're gambling that the trigger will happen and you're risking the loss of your action if the trigger doesn't happen.

Nothing illegal about that

My point still stands that it's illegal declare your own action (not even a readied action, just a move action) to move into an occupied non-helpless ally's square and end your movement there.

claudekennilol wrote:
Or are you going to tell me that you don't allow people to ready to move?

Why are you putting these irrelevant words into my mouth? I never said any such thing. My previous post didn't even say ANYTHING about what can be readied and what cannot. That whole post was talking about the OTHER guy declaring an illegal action. Pay attention before you accuse someone of saying something that isn't even close to what they said.

claudekennilol wrote:
Because that's essentially what this whole question boils down to. It basically sounds to me like you make your players set up readied actions that only have 100% chance of going off--which obviously doesn't always happen. Have you never "readied an action to attack someone as they cast a spell" and then they somehow move out of range/behind concealment/don't cast?

All irrelevant. Go read my previous post again.

Grand Lodge

DM_Blake wrote:


Why are you putting these irrelevant words into my mouth? I never said any such thing. My previous post didn't even say ANYTHING about what can be readied and what cannot. That whole post was talking about the OTHER guy declaring an illegal action. Pay attention before you accuse someone of saying something that isn't even close to what they said.

That's the thing, the other guy hasn't declared any illegal actions. You are allowed to move to wherever you are physically able (and you can move into an ally's square as we all know). Like I said in my post, I can spend 60' of movement moving back and forth between ally's squares if I want, I'll get shunted back to the last legal position I was in. But if this action is readied, as soon as that space is empty the readied action will go off in the middle of movement (because readied actions make it clear that readied actions can go off in the middle of something). There's nothing illegal going on.

"I ready an action to take a 5' step into an adjacent square if there's an adjacent square next to me" is all that's needed for this. This could happen in the middle of someone's movement and is still nothing illegal has happened.


Let's look at it another way.

Alex and Bill are allies in adjacent squares. Alex goes first. He readies an action to move into Bill's square when Bill leaves it (feel free to word that in whatever rules-lawyerly way you want, that is the basic gist of the readied action).

Now it's Bill's turn. Bill takes an action to move into Alex's square and end his movement there. He cannot do this because that square is occupied by a non-helpless ally. This is an illegal move action so it cannot be declared by the player because he's breaking the rules.

OK, so the GM ignores that based on Alex's readied action. So what are the rules for Alex's readied action? When Bill leaves his square, Alex moves into it. Alex's readied action goes BEFORE Bill's movement and interrupts it (rules for Readied Actions) so before Bill actually leaves his square, Alex moves into it and ends his movement. Illegal, because Bill is still there.

This is true no matter how you word Alex's readied action. For example, Alex might say "I wait until the nanosecond (picosecond/femtosecond/attosecond/etc.) that Bill has actually left his square vacant and entered my square and then move at the speed of light into his square leaving my square empty for him."

It doesn't matter.

No matter how you word it, it requires Bill to declare a move action to enter and end his movement illegally based on a predicted readied action (that might happen but has not happened yet) and it requires Alex to ready his action that will go BEFORE Bill in such a way that Alex illegally enter's Bill's space BEFORE Bill leaves it and ends his movement there.

RAW definitely does not support this.

Grand Lodge

Numarak wrote:

@Claudekennilol:

It was you who said that there is an easy trigger for making this possible, on the other hand, I say there is no such easy way to spell out this action without breaking the simple rule of:

Ending Your Movement
stop reading here

Yes, you can't end your movement in an occupied square, no one is denying that. What you're denying is that movement isn't over until it's over.

DM_Blake wrote:

Let's look at it another way.

Alex and Bill are allies in adjacent squares. Alex goes first. He readies an action to move into Bill's square when Bill leaves it (feel free to word that in whatever rules-lawyerly way you want, that is the basic gist of the readied action).

Now it's Bill's turn. Bill takes an action to move into Alex's square and end his movement there. He cannot do this because that square is occupied by a non-helpless ally. This is an illegal move action so it cannot be declared by the player because he's breaking the rules.

Your bolded bit is where you're confused. You declare your movement one step at a time. Bill's move isn't done until he says it's done. When he takes his first 5 feet of movement, he still has 25 feet of movement left and his move has not ended so he is not punted out of hte square. At this Alex's readied action goes off and he moves into the empty square. Now Bill has control over his movement again as Alex's interruption is done. At this point Bill can decide to stop moving or continue moving.

At this point I'm done with this thread. I've presented the rules as they're printed and I see no more need to repeat myself.


By the way, another thing I missed, the premise:

1) A player does not have to declare where they are ending their movement.

I believe it is not true. When I say I move my PC, my GM always asks me "where are you going?". If I answer this question with: I do not have to tell you, I basically won't move.

I even have to declare my route, since I can incur in AoO.

The premise that is true is that you might end your movement where you did not expect to. But not willingly. My PC can set off a trap and die right away in the middle of his movement, but I declared where I was going to. Or an enemy can Trip me. Or many other options. But my GM knows where my PC is going when I say: I move.


Let's think about this from a practical standpoint. Readied actions allow interrupts during movement which do not invalidate the movement or end the movement. After the Readied action completes, the movement continues.

Can you trigger based on a condition? Yes.
Condition: Joe says "Shift Now".

Joe starts behind you. Joe is moving. Joe has moved into Joan's square two squares behind you, vacating his existing square. Joe has not finished moving. Joe is allowed to move through as many squares as his movement allows, before ending his movement.

Joe takes a free action during movement to say "Shift Now".

You move into Joe's starting square. Joe had already entered Joan's square before taking the free action to say "Shift Now". Therefore Joe's starting square is empty, and Joe is sharing a square with Joan. (Hope Joan is OK with this.)

You complete your readied action and are in Joe's starting square. Joe then moves back to his starting square. Joe moves through his starting square. Joe ends in your starting square. If Joe only had a 10' movement rate, he'd still be pushed into your now open starting square as the only legal place to end his move.


And again: you are not describing a 5-Foot switch, which was the OP question.

I'm not even sure if this option is possible, because Readied actions interrupt actions before they happen, and what you are describing is an interruption in the middle of a process, in the middle of an action, not before it.

But the main thing is: can 2 PCs side by side, switch places with a readied action and a 5-Foot step? No, they can't.

P.S. And no, I do not agree with your premises, I do not declare my movement in 5-Foot step increments, neither do anyone who I know. We declare movement as follows: I move to this point and I use this route. Know no one who says:

Player A: - 5-Foot step north.
GM: - now what?
Player A: - now 5-Foot step east.
GM: - Good, you still have some movement left, now where?


claudekennilol wrote:
Your bolded bit is where you're confused. You declare your movement one step at a time. Bill's move isn't done until he says it's done. When he takes his first 5 feet of movement, he still has 25 feet of movement left and his move has not ended so he is not punted out of hte square. At this Alex's readied action goes off and he moves into the empty square. Now Bill has control over his movement again as Alex's interruption is done. At this point Bill can decide to stop moving or continue moving.

I completely disagree.

Nothing in combat says "Declare a fraction of your action, take it, then decide on the next fraction of your action and take that, then the next fraction, and so on, until you run out of action fractions."

(side note: "action fractions" - I totally want to copyright that term!)

The closest thing in combat is the rule about converting a Full attack into a standard attack after your first attack is resolved. A special case, not a general blanket rule allowing you to subdivide your action into action fractions.

So on your turn you declare your move action. You don't just declare a move fraction.

On the other hand, there might be ways to metagame this in a tricky-lawyerish way. For example, Bill might declare that he's going to move through Alex's square and end his turn in the empty space beyond Alex, at which time Alex's readied action goes off while Bill is "passing through his square" and Alex moves into Bill's vacated square - at which time Bill might "change his mind" and end his movement in Alex's vacated square. All legal (assuming your GM is not a jerk about changing your mind). It wouldn't work with 5'Steps though. And if Alex and Bill are planning it this way, there is obviously some deliberate deception involved. Not cool. But if it happened organically, I don't think most game groups would object.

All of which is why I said in my first post that I'd just allow it and move on, even though RAW doesn't support it.

claudekennilol wrote:
At this point I'm done with this thread. I've presented the rules as they're printed and I see no more need to repeat myself.

Ahh, yes, the time-honored best way to convince people that you're right: bail out of the discussion.


Numarak, I understand your point, but IMO I think what you're arguing is house rule rather than RAW here. In our most recent game, we had players declaring a move, then moving one square on the grid, evaluating if they were affected by unseen traps, glyphs, readied actions, then move another square & so on - so the idea that movement has to be declared with a clear & legal end point or it doesn't happen isn't either my experience or backed by RAW that I can see. I may be incorrect, but I'm looking for a rules citation to clarify.

By RAW, I can take a free action to say: "Joe, I need to shift back. Can you squeeze with Joan, then take my place?" If he says yes, then on my turn I ready an action to shift to his square when he tells me to do so.

On his turn, Joe starts to move. He moves to Joan's square & with another free action calls out to me "Shift now!" My readied action goes off based on condition "Joe tells me to move". This readied action interrupts his move, but doesn't bring him back - the speaking happened after he entered Joan's space. I move to the empty space while Joe is still in Joan's space.

Once my readied action is complete, Joe completes his move, moving through my current space and into my starting space.

Even if you have to declare a legal end point before you start your move, you could metagame & declare your legal end point as your starting square, then, when it becomes an illegal end square due to being occupied, you'd be automatically shunted to the only open legal square.

Now I could see a problem for the characters if the enemy hears the plan to shift and readies an action to step up. At that point you'd be in GM adjudication territory.


Now with RegUSPatOff's example I see this as totally legal and do-able. Joe is using a movement action and not a 5 foot free step. Joe uses 10 ft of movement squeezing into Joan's space, then the player with the readied action interrupts once the space is clear, halting (temporarily) joes movement, moves into the now empty square, then joe continues his movement using another 10 ft of movement squeezing through the square he started in and using 5 ft of movement then going into the now vacant square that the readied action player started in. This is totally legal as long as joe uses 25 ft of movement (counting the extra movement penalty for squeezing.)


Just read the post before yours, the one DM_Blake wrote. Nobody declares fraction of movement -neither fraction of action-. That is not supported by rules.

What you were describing was a 5-Foot approach done in different rounds, not in a single round. Nobody, again, nobody I know declares their movements in 5-Foot step increments.

Usually action declaration goes as follows:
Standard: I'll do this with my standard.
Move: I'll do this with my move.

Never heard:
Standard: I'll cast a spell but just half of it, then I half attack and on my next round I complete both.
Move: I move 5-Foot here.
GM: Are you done?
Player: no, not yet. If I'm safe after those 5-Foot, I move another 5-Foot here.
GM: Are you done yet?
Player: no, not yet. I do not have to declare where I'm going.

Actions are declared whole, not by fractions.

On the other hand take in consideration the following Feats:
Swap Places.
Shot on the Run.
Intercept Charge.
And my favourite, Strike Back.

If they exist is because without them, you can't interrupt any actions while they are happening. Why would they exist if you could interrupt any action in the middle of its happening?


People normally don't declare fractional movement because usually there is no need. However, if conditions change during your move, like a readied wall of fire goes off in your path, I know of no gm that would force a character to continue their move through it.

Do you?


Well, actually we could argue about it. Did you know the wall of fire was going to appear from a puff of smoke? You did not. I probably will check the outcome with a Reflex save, same way I would do with a suddenly opened pit. Reflex saved, you stop and can react. Reflex failed, you do not react with enough agility and burn your moustache.

But that is not the question we are arguing here.

And people do not usually declare fractional movement because you declare movement, not fraction movement. When you are walking over a hazardous place, some movies come to my mind now, you actually walk by 5-Foot steps. You do not place a further step til you know the previous was safe. That slow walk is just that, a slow movement of 5-Foot steps, not a regular move.

Some classes, like Rogue, can walk faster while detecting traps, but nobody in their minds will dash over a full of traps paasageway.

EDIT: and again, in normal situations, does anybody declare their movements in 5-Foot step?


Reflex save is not the issue. You get that according to the spell. The question is do you mindlessly keep on your original trajectory through the wall of flame.

Nowhere in the rules does it say you have to pre announce your entire turn and lock it in before you act. Seriously, where do you guys get this stuff?


No one talked about locking your turn before you act. We are discussing if two persons -side by side- can switch places with a ready action and a 5-Foot step without the feat Swap Places.

My stand is that no, they can't.

And about the issue you are referring to, how do you declare your actions, I, myself, declare them as a whole, not in fractions. How those actions turn out depend on many other factors. I do not declare part of a melee attack, part of a move or part of a casting of a spell. I declare "I cast Fire Wall". Nobody declares "I take the components. Did it work? Then I make the moves in order to observe the somatic component. Did it work? Then I pronounce the words...". No, just no.

Sorry if I sound harsh, not my intention.

P.S. by the way: Wall of Fire, saving throw: none.


I declare parts of melee attacks all the time. If I drop an enemy on the first attack of a full round attack, I might abort the rest and take a move action. Or maybe I will 5 foot step and attack another opponent.

Similarly, if I take a partial move around a corner and observe new threats or opportunities I might move back behind cover, run up to a new enemy, or any number of actions based on this new knowledge.

In short, while often there is no need to modify your actions during your turn, there are many situations where it is important to do so, and the rules support your ability to do so.


I agree on that part, _Ozy_ but you do not declare parts of "an attack". A 5-Foot step is a very especific form of movement -which can not be fractioned-, not the regular movement, henceforth you can not compare an attack from a Full-attack action to a 5-Foot step of a 30 Feet movement, because they are not comparable.

The comparison here would be something more like:
Can you grapple two times in a full-round acion attack? Answer: no -without a especific Feat- although attacking and grappling both are standard actions. See my point now?

That is what we are discussing. Can you swap places with a 5-Foot step -and just a 5-Foot step?- Answer, from my understanding of the rules, is the same as the paragraph above: no without the proper Feats, which you have two at your disposal, Friendly Switch and Swap Places.

Anyway, I presented my view too many times. I could be wrong or I could be right, but I can't share more information about this.

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