System for Gradually Learning Languages (AKA: Beating a Dead Horse)


Homebrew and House Rules

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Hey everybody! I know this has been discussed before, but I thought I'd try my hand at it. It may be too complex for some, but I've tried to make it as intuitive as possible. With this system, I could imagine there being a few more language-related feats or traits to increase the speed or effectiveness of language learning.

Notes:

  • Certain spells/abilities may need to be omitted or given higher levels to make this worthwhile.
  • Because of the relationship between cultural knowledge and language, this steps on the toes of knowledge skills slightly.
  • I'm considering having one less fluency level (or even two less) so that each one is more clearly defined and fluency requires less of a skill tax.
  • I'm also tossing around renaming the categories to Unknown, Broken, Basic, Intermediate, Advanced, Fluent.

    Tell me what you think. Feel free to use, tweak, suggest, or shoot down.

    -~:-:~-

    Begin play with a number of language ranks equal to your Intelligence score. If you have an Intelligence of 10 or higher, you must choose at least one language in which you are of Native fluency (5 ranks). At 9 INT or lower, you must assign at least half of the ranks to a single language. A very dull Half-Orc with an INT of 6 must have be least 3:Proficient in Common or Orc, for example. (See below for how to allot ranks.)

    Each skill rank spent on Linguistics allows you to also raise the rank of a single language. You may select multiple languages if you increase Linguistics by more than 1 rank, but you may only raise the rank of a given language by 1 per level. Languages learned are limited to:
    1) Those that another character in the party knows. That character must agree to teach you (or at least speak to you regularly in the language).
    2) Those that are commonly used by the individuals or general populace with whom the party interacted over the past level. You learn by immersion.
    3) Those for which written learning materials are readily available. You can learn by yourself.
    4) Other, limited situations as defined by the GM.
    (Note: the learning of secret languages should be restricted)

    Each language can have up to five ranks, resulting in the following categories of fluency:
    0) Unknown: You cannot speak, read, or write the language. It looks and sounds like gibberish to you.
    1) Broken: You can attempt to get the gist of a conversation or basic passage and to pick out, remember, and recite important words or short phrases.
    2) Basic: You can attempt to understand and form rudimentary statements and questions, but misunderstandings are common.
    3) Proficient: You can attempt detailed conversations, but many subtleties still escape you. It is possible to miss metaphors, subtle hints or references, or to accidentally be confusing, humorous, or rude.
    4) Fluent: You can attempt complex dialogues and metaphor, but still have an accent, and your gaps of cultural knowledge may cause issues.
    5) Native: You have no accent and have full access to the common knowledge of the people who speak the language natively. You do not need to perform skill checks for the language.

    -~:-:~-

    Checks
    To make a Linguistics check, add your Linguistics level PLUS the level of the language in question. For example, a character with 3 ranks in Linguistics (allotting 2 ranks to Elven and 1 rank to Dwarven) would have a total of +5 and +4 for checks related to Elven and Dwarven, respectively (before including class skill or INT bonuses). The character would have +3 for unknown languages.

    DC----Check---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------Language Rank Required
    5------Identify a common language that you have heard before-------------None
    10-----Identify a common language you have never heard--------------------None
    13-----Pick out important words-----------------------------------------------------Broken
    15-----Memorize a phrase------------------------------------------------------------Broken
    18-----Avoid misunderstanding or rudeness--------------------------------------Basic
    20-----Understand or give subtle hint or metaphor-----------------------------Proficient
    23-----Disguise accent convincingly-------------------------------------------------Fluent
    25-----Recall obscure common knowledge of native speakers-----------------Fluent

    You may attempt a check requiring one language rank higher than your actual ability by using only half of your total Linguistics bonus. For example, a Wizard with +8 in Linguistics (+4 from INT, +1 rank, +3 class skill), could decipher an unknown language as if he had Broken comprehension at +4, or treat his Broken language skills as Basic at +5. You must have at least one rank in Linguistics to do so.

    Optional: Related Languages
    You may choose to treat languages in your game as being related, such as how Romance languages have a degree of mutual intelligibility due to their common roots in Latin. If a language is a close dialect of a language you speak, treat both speakers' fluency as one level lower. For example, if you are Fluent in Dwarven, you would be "Proficient" in Duergar. A Native Duergar speaker would in turn be "Fluent" in Dwarven.

    If the language is more distantly related, or only shares features and vocabulary due to interaction between neighboring languages, you may still be able to eke out a form of communication. For example, if your campaign considers Elven and Sylvan as being distantly related (or unrelated but regularly interacting), then your GM might consider your Elf to have Broken or Basic ability in Sylvan.


  • To avoid a solid nerf of the Linguistic skill, I suggest you to hallow two «language» ranks by skills rank in linguistic, and to do as you sayed and remove 1 step in the language ranks. Actually, the linguistic skill is 5 times weaker than before (this change is very flavorfull, but why would a player put one point in linguistic in opposition of any knowledge ?).


    Kelazan wrote:
    To avoid a solid nerf of the Linguistic skill, I suggest you to hallow two «language» ranks by skills rank in linguistic, and to do as you sayed and remove 1 step in the language ranks. Actually, the linguistic skill is 5 times weaker than before (this change is very flavorfull, but why would a player put one point in linguistic in opposition of any knowledge ?).

    Why keep Linguistics in at all in a system like this?

    I had a similar idea for a system that treated languages as skills, 'Language (Blah)'. Yours is simultaneously more streamlined and meatier than mine, so good job. I likey.

    RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

    Kelazan: I think if you made languages less accessible in general, it would quickly become apparent why a player would want to spend points in these. I think it would add a lot to the mystique of meeting new races. As things are now, what's the point of even having languages, if a party of four can start completely fluent in (conceivably) 15+ of them at level 1?

    Coyote_Ragtime: Hmm, yeah. The marginal benefits of being able to identify unknown languages don't seem to justify keeping it as a skill. But the math seems to work out this way. I'll try writing up an alternate system.

    I do like the idea of separate languages as being skills in the same vein as Knowledge/Craft/Profession/Perform. Hmm...


    regarding beginning play - I suggest requiring a minimum of 3 ranks, corresponding to "Proficient", in at least one language, chosen from the list the race has access to at the start.

    I don't agree with the limit:

    Hodge Podge wrote:
    you may only raise the rank of a given language by 1 per level

    I think if a character reaching third level elects to put 2 ranks into Linguistics, raising that skill to 3 ranks, and pick up, say, Orc, they should be allowed to put two ranks into Orc. A character who starts with three ranks in a language ought to be able to add two at third level to max out that language proficiency. The limit on any skill to character level number of ranks will limit the growth of language proficiency because imrpoving language proficiency depends on Linguistics ranks.

    Regarding the optional rule for related languages: I think a single step in proficiency between speakers of related languages is too small. I doubt a "native" speaker in one language should be automatically considered "fluent" when conversing in another related language, in which the character has no ranks; perhaps "proficient" is reasonable: if the speaker is trying to compensate for the listener's limited skill, two "native" speakers of closely related languages might be able to converse at a "proficient" level by relying on the similarities in their languages.

    Regarding

    Kelazan wrote:
    but why would a player put one point in linguistic in opposition of any knowledge

    My answer: For the create/detect forgery and decipher unknown/incomplete/archaic texts aspects of the skill, which are the parts that involve skill checks in the current rules, plus for the bonus it gives for language checks in this proposed system.


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    I like the idea and I agree with the premise. You've got some good ideas here that I'll likely assimilate into my own system, but it seems bigger and more complicated that I'd be interested in playing with, personally.

    I use a three-rank system.

    My System:
    New languages are mastered in steps, not an entire language for each rank.

    I. When you put the first skill point into Linguistics for a new language, you gain a rudimentary understanding of that language, meaning you must make a DC10 Intelligence check in order to understand spoken/written forms of that language and you can only speak the simplest phrases, and probably with a pretty rough accent.

    II. When a second skill point is applied to Linguistics for that same language, you have learned the language and you can speak, understand, and read it without difficulty, but with a foreign accent noticeable by native speakers. Technical text and exceptionally flowery language (such as poetry) may still require a DC10 Intelligence check, according to GM discretion.

    III. A third skill point may be put into Linguistics toward a specific language to attain complete fluency (even the most technical writing/speaking is understood) and to adopt a flawless native accent in that language granting a +2 circumstance bonus to Bluff and Diplomacy checks against native speakers when you speak to them in that language. This does not apply to “common.”

    All characters start with “common” at rank II (there is no rank III for common) and their racial languages at rank III. Bonus languages taken at first level due to a positive Intelligence modifier start at rank II; however, a character can start at rank III by using up 2 bonus language choices. Linguistics still applies to attempts to make sense of script written in an unknown language, as explained in the Linguistics skill entry.


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    I like this, but the current system is too binary for something so detailed. I say stick with broken, proficient and fluent as your levels of proficiency, and in sets of 3 ranks per level per language.

    RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

    Seems like most are on board with a three levels per language. I agree. :)

    I'll rewrite some stuff and see if I can make the math work satisfactorily. I'm also going to take the time to write a few spells to replace the current language-related ones.

    -~:-:~-

    25 minutes later: Okay! I've got a full rewrite of the skill proper. It's much smoother, and seems like it'll work great!!
    Next up: rewriting spells and cantrips/orisons.

    -~:-:~-

    Begin play with a number of language ranks equal to half your Intelligence score plus 1. If you have an Intelligence of 10 or higher, you must choose at least one language in which you are Fluent (3 ranks). At 9 INT or lower, you must assign at least half of the ranks to a single language. A very dull Half-Orc with an INT of 6 must be at least Proficient (2 ranks) in Common or Orc, for example. A character who somehow only had 1 Intelligence would hypothetically have Broken ability in a single language.(See below for how to allot ranks.)

    Each skill rank spent on Linguistics allows you to also raise the rank of a single language. Languages learned are limited to:
    1) Those that another character in the party knows. That character must agree to teach you (or at least speak to you regularly in the language).
    2) Those that are commonly used by the individuals or general populace with whom the party interacted over the past level. You learn by immersion.
    3) Those for which written learning materials are readily available. You can learn by yourself.
    4) Other, limited situations as agreed between the player and GM.
    (Note: the learning of secret languages should be restricted)

    Each language can have up to three ranks, resulting in the following categories of fluency:
    0) Unknown: You cannot speak, read, or write the language. It looks and sounds like gibberish to you.
    1) Broken: You can get the gist of a conversation or basic passage and pick out, remember, and recite important words or short phrases. You can attempt to form rudimentary statements and questions, but misunderstandings are common.
    2) Proficient: You can attempt somewhat detailed conversations, but many subtleties still escape you. It is possible to miss metaphors, subtle hints or cultural references, or to accidentally be confusing, humorous, or rude. You still have a heavy accent, and fluent speakers know right away that you are not native.
    3) Fluent: You have little to no accent and are fully capable of understanding and forming relatively complex speech and writing.

    -~:-:~-

    Checks
    To make a Linguistics check, add your Linguistics level PLUS the level of the language in question. For example, a character with 3 ranks in Linguistics (allotting 2 ranks to Elven and 1 rank to Dwarven) would have a total of +5 and +4 for checks related to Elven and Dwarven, respectively (before including class skill or INT bonuses). The character would have +3 for unknown languages.

    Failing a check means that there is a critical misunderstanding. Information given or received may be partially or completely incorrect, or a statement could be taken as being extremely rude.

    DC 5 – Recognize a language that you have heard before. (automatic if trained in Linguistics).
    DC 10 – Identify a common language that you have never heard (automatic at Broken or higher).
    DC 15 – Understand or form basic speech or writing (automatic at Proficient or higher).
    DC 20 – Understand or form complex speech or writing (automatic at Fluent).
    DC 25 – Understand or form highly cryptic or poetic language.

    You must be trained in Linguistics or the language in question to make any check other than recognizing a language you have heard.

    -~:-:~-

    Optional: Related Languages
    You may choose to treat languages in your game as being related, such as how Romance languages have a degree of mutual intelligibility due to their common roots in Latin. If a language is a close relative of a language you speak, treat both speakers' fluency as one level lower. For example, if you are Fluent in Dwarven, you would be "Proficient" in Duergar. A Fluent Duergar speaker would in turn be "Proficient" in Dwarven. (A "Proficient" Dwarven speaker would have "Broken" Duergar ability, and vice-versa.)

    If the language is more distantly related, or only shares features and vocabulary due to interaction between neighboring languages, you may still be able to eke out a form of communication. For example, if your campaign considers Elven and Sylvan as being distantly related (or unrelated but regularly interacting), then your GM might consider your Elf to have Broken ability in Sylvan. A shared alphabet is a good indication of this.


    I like the 5 levels, especially that there is a "native" level.

    Regarding the language checks -
    a) the higher difficulty tasks have a degree of affinity with cultural knowledge more than knowledge of linguistics. Perhaps the implication for me is that there must be a limit on how much linguistics skill can help - perhaps up to language proficiency level. So for a DC 18 Avoid Rudeness check, the bonus for a character with proficiency 3 and Linguistics 6 would be +6.
    I think it would be interesting to explore ways to factor in regional variation, where culture, manners, idiom varies among areas of common language.

    b) perhaps DC ought to vary depending on mode (spoken/written) - generally, for example, I know I'll find it easier to recognize written words than spoken ones in languages I am not proficient with, as long as the alphabet corresponds closely to the alphabet I know, and the languages share common roots - as English does with both the Germanic and Romance languages. With Thai, Mandarin, Korean, I'm equally lost with both verbal and written, with Japanese i'm slightly better verbally as I can recall a few words but have no idea how they are represented in writing.

    I suppose this is a variation on the question of related languages. So perhaps Pathfinder's DC 20 check to decipher a simple message in an unknown language gets a bonus if the language is related, sharing at least some word roots as well as writing system with a language the character has proficiency with, and that DC13 check suggested above to pick out important words at least gives the requisite broken proficiency when one has fluency in a related language with the same writing system and some roots in common.

    RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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    Side note: I'm not a fan of Linguistics as a way of detecting and creating forgeries. I think it would make much more sense in some sort of "Craft (document)" skill. Although not being fluent in the language would obviously give such Craft checks a penalty.

    Side note 2: Hmm, I think I may have left a bit of a kink in the system here. As is, Linguistics can be used even for unknown languages to use complex speech. Need to fix that.

    Perhaps I can recycle my previous rule into something like "use only half of your total Linguistics bonus when trying to understand or use unknown languages" (you can use the full bonus for simply identifying). That means the +8 Linguistics Wizard (+4 INT, +1 rank, +3 class skill), would get +4 for unknown languages. A maxed-out character with +30ish in Linguistics would then have slightly better than 50% chance (at "only" +15) of deciphering highly cryptic messages in languages they don't know. That seems about right to me.

    -~:-:~-

    Freehold That was exactly what I was thinking. (And did!)

    -~:-:~-

    Wildebob: I took some cues from your system. Blended well! :D

    -~:-:~-

    Orich: I'm a fan of realistic granularity too, but I recognize that there has to be compromise with simplicity. Glad you liked it though!

    a) That makes sense! I think that since linguistics as a discipline overlaps with cultural studies, it ought to cover that. There could be an argument for making failed Linguistics rolls trigger a Diplomacy check though. I think that would simulate it well.

    b) I know what you mean, but that's sort of subjective. Some people excel at the written part, and others at the spoken. I think, for simplicity's sake, that both modes should be treated equally. I did edit the last (bolded) sentence of my rewrite to take writing systems into account. (See above!)

    As for your earlier post. I do agree that it's an unnecessary restriction to limit language growth even if they put extra points in Linguistics. I relent. :p

    For the optional rule: I think the deletion of two levels might have solved the issue. Take a look!

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    Heya, working on spells. It doesn't seem like I'll have to make any new ones so much as tweak what's already there. Here's what I've got so far.

    In general, spells that depend on or share languages that you already know will be limited to your ability in the language that you use. For example:

  • Share Language: Languages are shared at the level that you know them.
  • Sow Thought: You can only sow ideas that you would normally be able to convey when speaking in the language.
  • Hidden Speech: You can only understand and convey messages you could normally understand.

    -~:-:~-

    Spells that GRANT language ability are a little more problematic. I've nerfed most of them significantly, but hopefully not to the point where they are useless.

    Comprehend Language(s): Gives you Proficient (Rank 2) understanding in a SINGLE language (you must identify the language or witness it spoken or displayed before casting).
    Tongue(s): Gives you Fluent (Rank 3) understanding and usage in a SINGLE language (you must identify the language or witness it spoken or displayed before casting).
    Cultural Adaptation: Raises your ability in the language by 1 rank. When speaking, your disguise/diplomacy bonus is reduced to +0 at Broken, and +1 at Proficient. (Your grammar and pronunciation is perfect, but your vocabulary is severely limited.) (you must identify the language or witness it spoken or displayed before casting)
    Codespeak: All recipients are Fluent in the code language. It is Unknown to everyone else. A Linguistics check (DC 15) reveals the language as codespeak.
    Truespeak: Functions as normal, but its spell level is 2 higher.
    Tongue of Sun and Moon (Monk Ability): Works as normal, and is suddenly a lot more useful.


  • We can rename Linguistics to something like Scribe, Transcribe, or Forgery to avoid confusion. :D

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    Coyote_Ragtime wrote:
    We can rename Linguistics to something like Scribe, Transcribe, or Forgery to avoid confusion. :D

    Well then it wouldn't be Linguistics, now would it? ;P

    RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

    Just a thought, trainable animals with an Intelligence of 1 or 2 might be able to comprehend (but not speak) a spoken language or two at Broken level. Animals would be illiterate and unable to get above Broken understanding.

    So instead of: "You can get the gist of a conversation or basic passage and pick out, remember, and recite important words or short phrases. You can attempt to form rudimentary statements and questions, but misunderstandings are common."

    An animal might have: "You can get the gist of speech, picking out and remembering important words or short phrases, but misunderstandings are common."

    —~:-:~—

    Actually, I might propose that there be a new language: Bestial.

    Bestial is a language that has ONLY one level (Broken), has a "written" form based on scent, and is only able to convey base messages such as aggression.

    Animals with an Intelligence of 1 MUST take Bestial as their language. Animals with an Intelligence of 2 MUST take 1 rank in Bestial, but may be trained to understand Broken level in one other language. If this is a language that the animal's master speaks, its master gains a +1 competence bonus on Handle Animal checks with it.

    Characters can take a rank in Bestial, but cannot "read" it if they do not have the scent ability. They can use it to understand an animal's emotional state, and gain a +1 competence bonus on:

  • Handle Animal checks
  • Knowledge (nature) checks made to identify animals based on sound or scent

    If an animal and its master share both Bestial and another language in common, the Handle Animal bonuses stack to a total of +2.


  • Wasn't learning new languages outside of Linguistics ranks covered in Ultimate Combat already?


    Why don't just use the system presented in Midnight campaign setting?

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    Odraude wrote:
    Wasn't learning new languages outside of Linguistics ranks covered in Ultimate Combat already?

    Not that I'm aware of. Maybe it was elsewhere? Seems like a strange thing to cover in a book about combat. :p

    Blackstorm wrote:
    Why don't just use the system presented in Midnight campaign setting?

    Hey, thanks for pointing that out. Is this what you're talking about?

    If it is, then wow! It's a lot like what we've come up with here. I'm going to have to compare and contrast a bit to pick out what I like best.

    As for using it as is, that sort of defeats the purpose of making my own system for fun. :)


    Hodge Podge wrote:

    Heya, working on spells. It doesn't seem like I'll have to make any new ones so much as tweak what's already there. Here's what I've got so far.

    In general, spells that depend on or share languages that you already know will be limited to your ability in the language that you use. For example:

  • Share Language: Languages are shared at the level that you know them.
  • Sow Thought: You can only sow ideas that you would normally be able to convey when speaking in the language.
  • Hidden Speech: You can only understand and convey messages you could normally understand.

    -~:-:~-

    Spells that GRANT language ability are a little more problematic. I've nerfed most of them significantly, but hopefully not to the point where they are useless.

    Comprehend Language(s): Gives you Proficient (Rank 2) understanding in a SINGLE language (you must identify the language or witness it spoken or displayed before casting).
    Tongue(s): Gives you Fluent (Rank 3) understanding and usage in a SINGLE language (you must identify the language or witness it spoken or displayed before casting).
    Cultural Adaptation: Raises your ability in the language by 1 rank. When speaking, your disguise/diplomacy bonus is reduced to +0 at Broken, and +1 at Proficient. (Your grammar and pronunciation is perfect, but your vocabulary is severely limited.) (you must identify the language or witness it spoken or displayed before casting)
    Codespeak: All recipients are Fluent in the code language. It is Unknown to everyone else. A Linguistics check (DC 15) reveals the language as codespeak.
    Truespeak: Functions as normal, but its spell level is 2 higher.
    Tongue of Sun and Moon (Monk Ability): Works as normal, and is suddenly a lot more useful.

  • Don't know all the spells but from names/what I do know I'd say . . .

    Comprehend Language(s): I think this is more powerful in your system as I vaguely recall it only letting you understand not speak/write the language maybe want to fix that.
    Tongue(s): I'd say it should still function as written granting rank 3 in all langauges as it already states you can only SPEAK one at a time..
    Cultural Adaptation: This one I'd say puts you at rank 3 in a single given language with all the cultural mannerisms and idioms appropriate.
    Codespeak: Don't know so can't comment.
    Truespeak: Keep as is.

    I'd also point out you need to deal with literacy or is that going on the same progression e.g. basic: You can read at a childs level. Proficient you can understand street signs, menu's, basic books etc. Native You can read a highly complex technical manual or eleborate poetry and imaginative texts?

    RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

    Liam Warner wrote:

    Don't know all the spells but from names/what I do know I'd say . . .

    Comprehend Language(s): I think this is more powerful in your system as I vaguely recall it only letting you understand not speak/write the language maybe want to fix that.
    Tongue(s): I'd say it should still function as written granting rank 3 in all langauges as it already states you can only SPEAK one at a time..
    Cultural Adaptation: This one I'd say puts you at rank 3 in a single given language with all the cultural mannerisms and idioms appropriate.
    Codespeak: Don't know so can't comment.
    Truespeak: Keep as is.

    I'd also point out you need to deal with literacy or is that going on the same progression e.g. basic: You can read at a childs level. Proficient you can understand street signs, menu's, basic books etc. Native You can read a highly complex technical manual or eleborate poetry and imaginative texts?

    Thanks for the feedback!

    Comprehend languages: I may not have been clear, my version allows one language to be understood, but not spoken or written, just as you are saying. It is weaker than the normal version in two ways: 1) It is only proficient and not fluent, 2) It applies to only one language at a time instead of all languages.

    Tongues: Seems like not much of a setback. It's such a low-level spell that TOTAL comprehension of all languages and the ability to perfectly interpret between them seems a bit overpowered, in my opinion. (Again, it almost entirely negates the need to learn languages at all.)

    Cultural Adaptation: I'm for simplification. The original spell doesn't grant any language ability at all though, and I wanted to reflect that. I'll toy with it more.

    Truespeak: Do you mean it's fine at +2 levels or that it should remain unchanged from rules as written?

    On literacy, yeah, I didn't address that directly. I was thinking of just leaving reading/writing level as equivalent to the speaking level without any extra points needed, but perhaps 1 rank for literacy in each language would be good. Spend 1, and you can read at whatever level you can speak. If your fluency rises, literacy would rise automatically as long as you trained in it.

    Verdant Wheel

    Hodge Podge,

    to account for the fact that some ordinary earthlings can speak many languages, and without resorting to the feat system reflexively, what if high Intelligence characters could float ranks in separate langues for each point of INT mod?

    ex: 2nd level 18-INT character, puts 2 skill point in Linguistics, yields 2x4 = 8 total ranks to be spent amongst different languages.

    also,
    an idea, to clean up the ranks > HD mess, you could revert to the 3ed rank paradigm, where starting with 1-4 ranks in a language doesn't break format. just a thought.

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    rainzax wrote:

    Hodge Podge,

    to account for the fact that some ordinary earthlings can speak many languages, and without resorting to the feat system reflexively, what if high Intelligence characters could float ranks in separate langues for each point of INT mod?

    ex: 2nd level 18-INT character, puts 2 skill point in Linguistics, yields 2x4 = 8 total ranks to be spent amongst different languages.

    also,
    an idea, to clean up the ranks > HD mess, you could revert to the 3ed rank paradigm, where starting with 1-4 ranks in a language doesn't break format. just a thought.

    Hey, thanks for the help. :)

    Hmm, I'm not sure your suggestions really jive with the alternate system as we've discussed it so far. Did you read the rewrite halfway down the page?

    Also, Intelligence already determines skill points, so making the INT mod multiply with ranks seems like double-counting Intelligence somehow, which is something I reflexively shy from. If we followed both of your suggestions, then we'd be getting level one characters with 16 language ranks to spend, so anywhere between 5 completely fluent to 16 very basic languages known. Part of the reason I'm making the system is to reduce the number of languages known off the bat so that they actually mean something.

    Edit: Oh, I see what you're saying though. The system as I wrote it doesn't treat the initial language ranks as coming from linguistics, so the ranks > HD problem doesn't apply.


    Hodge Podge wrote:


    Hey, thanks for pointing that out. Is this what you're talking about?

    If it is, then wow! It's a lot like what we've come up with here. I'm going to have to compare and contrast a bit to pick out what I like best.

    As for using it as is, that sort of defeats the purpose of making my own system for fun. :)

    Exactly that. I was outside when I posted and I was a bit in hurry. You'd find that anyway :)

    That's however don't stop you from creating your system for fun :) let's say that the midnight system is a fast backup just in case :)


    Thing is while level 3 is relatively low down you need to consider it in terms of the world not the PCs. A 3rd level spell to speak and understand one language of a creature is actually fairly complex in terms of NPC casters. Yes you can buy a 3rd level spell in a village which I feel is silly but that's still 200 people and only means you have at least one caster capable of 3rd level spells who may be divine or arcane. When you consider levels for a wizard that's 5th level, for a sorcerer 6th, for an adept 9th. Yes its a low tier spell but its the pinacle spell level that's in common use and you need 5th level tongues to understand multiple differenct languages at once (yes leave truespeak alone). These are fundamental non combat applications of spells for trading, diplomacy etc that I feel would be invetented. If need be you can increase the level but I think they work where they are.

    Also my reading of tongues is that it only grants you the ability to speak/understand one language from a creature specifically its native one and you can't use it to speak French and German as a translator.


    Hodge Podge wrote:
    Odraude wrote:
    Wasn't learning new languages outside of Linguistics ranks covered in Ultimate Combat already?

    Not that I'm aware of. Maybe it was elsewhere? Seems like a strange thing to cover in a book about combat. :p

    Blackstorm wrote:
    Why don't just use the system presented in Midnight campaign setting?

    Hey, thanks for pointing that out. Is this what you're talking about?

    If it is, then wow! It's a lot like what we've come up with here. I'm going to have to compare and contrast a bit to pick out what I like best.

    As for using it as is, that sort of defeats the purpose of making my own system for fun. :)

    Sorry, that should say Ultimate Campaign.


    Wow, I came up with a very similar system here.

    In fact, I was about to get angry until I saw this was posted a month before mine.

    In any case, if anyone is looking for a character sheet that supports a multi-tier language-learning system, check mine out.


    Not knocking anyone for enjoying things that I don't enjoy, but I've seen this idea before and I just don't get what the point of making languages harder to learn is. Linguistics is already a pretty crapshoot skill in my opinion, and I usually play characters that pump it like crazy (the pain of knowing 20 different languages and never knowing the right one for the job). What makes this system more appealing than leaving linguistics and language acquisition as it is now?


    FanaticRat wrote:
    Not knocking anyone for enjoying things that I don't enjoy, but I've seen this idea before and I just don't get what the point of making languages harder to learn is. Linguistics is already a pretty crapshoot skill in my opinion, and I usually play characters that pump it like crazy (the pain of knowing 20 different languages and never knowing the right one for the job). What makes this system more appealing than leaving linguistics and language acquisition as it is now?

    Like any system that adds another layer of complication on top of things, it certainly isn't for everyone.

    For a lot of people, the added challenge contributes to the realism and the sense of immersion that they feel in the campaign. Trying to explain a situation to the city guards in a language you barely understand, deciphering an ancient inscription based on your knowledge of the modern tongue, bartering with a foreign merchant in a language neither of you fully comprehend... these types of encounters are made possible by such rules systems. Really, I guess it all comes down to how much importance your DM places on language in their campaign setting.


    Hodge Podge wrote:

    Optional: Related Languages

    You may choose to treat languages in your game as being related, such as how Romance languages have a degree of mutual intelligibility due to their common roots in Latin. If a language is a close relative of a language you speak, treat both speakers' fluency as one level lower. For example, if you are Fluent in Dwarven, you would be "Proficient" in Duergar. A Fluent Duergar speaker would in turn be "Proficient" in Dwarven. (A "Proficient" Dwarven speaker would have "Broken" Duergar ability, and vice-versa.)

    If the language is more distantly related, or only shares features and vocabulary due to interaction between neighboring languages, you may still be able to eke out a form of communication. For example, if your campaign considers Elven and Sylvan as being distantly related (or unrelated but regularly interacting), then your GM might consider your Elf to have Broken ability in Sylvan. A shared alphabet is a good indication of this.

    In 3.5e they had the languages listed with an alphabet next to them, sort of indicating this very thing.

    When I tried my hand at a better language system, I put together a sort of root/alphabet and derivative language thing, where you could rolls checks or gain certain basic understanding of other languages you didn't know as long as they shared similar roots.

    Root/Alphabet (Derivative)
    Aklo (Undercommon)
    Aquan
    Auran (Draconic)
    Celestial
    Common (Gnoll, Goblin, Halfling, Orc)
    Druidic
    Ignan
    Infernal (Abyssal)
    Sylvan (Elven)
    Terran (Dwarven, Giant, Gnome)

    .

    Lately I've been revamping the skill system, and with it a downtime system for crafting, learning and training. Crafting should be self-explanatory; Training is a way to get floating ranks in temporarily learned skills (so you can pick up acrobatics while sailing on a ship for a month or whatnot); and learning includes gaining Knowledge, Performances, Crafting types, and of course Languages.

    So if you get access to a source during your downtime (library, book, teacher, etc), you can permanently gain languages or knowledge over time.
    Linguistics would still be used for checks (like understanding an unknown language, deciphering something coded, or coming up with a coded message, etc).

    Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Homebrew and House Rules / System for Gradually Learning Languages (AKA: Beating a Dead Horse) All Messageboards

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