In a different thread the following claim was made, but the thread was subsequently locked before I could ask some follow-up questions. Since that is no longer an option, I figured I'd ask the rules question message board. I've also sent a PM to Aelryinth with a link to this thread.
I declare an AoO attack roll against the air.(One casual flourish later, I settle into defensive fighting to protect against the arrows heading my way). I declared my attack action, I'm in defensive fighting, and I'm going to stay that way until otherwise noted.
Condition satisfied.[...]
The full post can be found here.
Personally I believe this goes against the intention behind the fighting defensively rules as well as the limitations placed on Attacks of Opportunity. Near as I can tell, it would also mean that casters could trade an attack of opportunity for a +2 AC bonus every round they cast a spell that does not include an attack roll.That said, I'm trying to keep an open mind and I'd be interested in your arguments: Is this RAW/RAI legal?
AoOs aren't attack actions.
That seems to shut down Fighting Defensively with AoOs - is there anything stopping you from taking AoOs "against the air" in general?
That seems to shut down Fighting Defensively with AoOs - is there anything stopping you from taking AoOs "against the air" in general?
What's the air doing to provoke an AoO in the first place?
EDIT:Without provocation, there is no AoO to take.
well.... what exactly did the air due to provoke this opportunity to attack? just existing does not provoke. I suppose a strange argument could try to be made that the wind blowing is provoking, but if I had to adlib the air's stats I think it would have a pretty high acrobatics check lol
EDIT ninja'd lol that's what I get for waiting so long to hit enter
Why AoO the air? Aren't there enough gnats, flies, or ants around that may be moving through your threatened space? Heck, even a blade of grass swaying in the wind or a mote of dust or dandelion seed blowing along...
Wait, does this mean as GM I can have the air AoO anyone that decides to move?
Why AoO the air? Aren't there enough gnats, flies, or ants around that may be moving through your threatened space? Heck, even a blade of grass swaying in the wind or a mote of dust or dandelion seed blowing along...
Wait, does this mean as GM I can have the air AoO anyone that decides to move?
Naturally! and since the air clearly has a deceptively high Str based on it's ability to throw buildings onto witchs when it feels like it, they should learn to fear the wind!
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Kudaku, as some of the other posters have alluded to, you have an incorrect understanding of what an Attack of Opportunity is.
Attacks of Opportunity
Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down or takes a reckless action. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free. These free attacks are called attacks of opportunity.
So, an AOO only occurs when an opponent has taken an action that causes them to leave an opening in their defense.
This is an insult thread to a post taken out of context.
The true reference is back to the DM requiring you to make an attack roll before you get the benefits out of Defensive fighting.
Fine, I make an attack roll against the air. I stay in place, hunker down behind my shield to get a little extra AC against the missiles coming my way, and wait for their melees to come charging up.
Oh noze, the archer behind me shooting back can get a defensive fighting bonus, but me braced here behind my shield awaiting attackers cannot, because I'm not attacking!
It was a ludicrous requirement with an equally wildly interpreted answer, nothing more.
I am going to ask the mods to delete the thread, or at least lock it.
==Aelryinth
Might consider taking a quick breather before responding, and calm down...the thread was free from hostility and insults till a few minutes ago.
Now, I'm one of those GM's that will require you to actually attack something, not the air, not the ground, an actual target to fight defensively. This is because I see it as the same as you needing to actually be in combat to gain the benefits of Combat Expertise or the Defending property of a weapon.
If you wish to totally hunker down behind your shield, go right ahead. It's called total defense, and will give you an even more substantial increase to your AC than fighting defensively does.
You can't fight defensively with an AOO - ever - even if someone actually provoked. You could however do it as a standard action on your turn. There is even a straight-up rule for that -
Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action: You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC until the start of your next turn.
You could 'attack the air' or 'a square' if you really wanted to instead, which would be similar to attacking an invisible creature. Who knows, you may even get lucky.
I haven't read that whole thread so I may have missed something but if you replace 'standard action' with AOO then it works. Granted that is a pretty big difference.
So, an AOO only occurs when an opponent has taken an action that causes them to leave an opening in their defense.
I'd like to note this wasn't my argument to begin with - I was asking for clarification on a rules interpretation Aelryinth made.
@Aelryinth
I really don't see how this thread is insulting - you made a statement in a post, near as I can tell based on the rules as you read them, which I quoted to completion and provided a link to. I'm asking for clarification since while I don't believe your interpretation is correct, I'm trying to keep an open mind - therefore I'm seeking the opinion of my fellow forum goers.
What you're now describing would, near as I can tell, be legal - but the difference between taking an attack action and using an AoO is that the AoO option you posted earlier does not require you to give up a standard action - a small, but critical, difference.
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I gave a wild interpretation answer to a wild interpretation judgment. I in no way believe you can AoO the air 'officially'. Taking a swing against the air to be forced to qualify as an 'attacker' for a non-sensical interpretation of the rules? Sure. I'll make nutty interpretations, too.
And sorry, I don't want to be in Total Defense. The enemy is coming and charging this way. I want to have a Ready Action. I want to be able to take AoO's.
And for some reason the guy who just dropped his bow and drew his dagger can be in defensive fighting while I, the epitome of defensive combat behind my shield waiting for the charging foe to come into range, can't get a +3 bonus against the missile fire of my enemies while prepping to stick one of them, nor a bonus against those longspear users with reach who get an attack at me before I can hit them. Despite me knowing they are coming and being ready for it!
But the missile thrower behind me, sure. Because he made an attack roll?!
it's an artificial distinction, it's a wild interpretation and narrow restriction of what 'attack' means, and it makes no sense.
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Throughout the history of 3E+, there's been exactly two modes of fighting (3 if you count the Offensive Fighting feat); normal, or Defensive Fighting.
You could be in defensive fighting mode at any time, but you didn't get the benefits until your init, because it's a dodge bonus, and also because it's rather obvious you're expecting a fight, so nobody is defensive fighting outside of combat unless they want to be paranoid.
You declared defensive fighting on your turn. You're now committed to attack actions...you can't spellcast. You CAN not attack anything now...you're on the defensive and ready to fight, but there's nothing anywhere that says you have to make an attack roll.
That kind of interpretation is lifted off the FAQ ruling on the Defender Enhancement, which requires you to attack with the weapon to gain the benefits.
It has never, ever applied to Defensive Fighting.
==Aelryinth
Let's put aside the AoO topic for the moment.
The 3.5 text and the PF text on Fighting Defensively can be found here and here. Both editions have identical text:
Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action
You can choose to fight defensively when taking a full attack action. If you do so, you take a -4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round.
I'm also going to add the final line of Pathfinder's Combat Expertise and the first line of 3.5's version of Combat Expertise:Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action
You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a -4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round. See also: Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action.
...You can only choose to use this feat when you declare that you are making an attack or a full-attack action with a melee weapon. The effects of this feat last until your next turn.
When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as -5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class.
RAW, and I believe RAI, the benefits of Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively only activate when you declare the attack, ie when you take the attack action. If you are targeted by attacks before you've declared and made your own attack the benefit of these options would not affect you.
That said, it's not an unreasonable house rule to have in place as long as long as you can handle the paradoxes it raises and your players won't take advantage of the potential loopholes.
I don't mean to be rude, or is this a real rules question or you two bickering about something from another thread?
If it is the first, state the question simply, and without undue weirdness, and we will see where it goes.
If it is the second...well...cut it out please.
Thank you.
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Thanks for joining us Stephen :)
There are actually two different rules questions debated here - the first (does AoO grant Defensive Fighting) has been resolved. The confusion around the second topic arose while debating the deflection ability from crane wing - it was asserted that the crane wing user could declare that he's fighting defensively, take a move action that provokes an attack of opportunity for moving through threatened area, deflect the AoO, and then subsequently take an attack action.
To rephrase the questions more briefly:
Can you declare you are fighting defensively (or benefiting from Combat Expertise), take a move action while benefiting from the increased AC bonus, and then make your attack?
Can you declare you are fighting defensively, prepare a ready action to make an attack, and benefit from the AC bonus from fighting defensively before your ready action comes into play?
Yes you can Kudaku. Just make sure you take the penalties also.
Yes you can Kudaku. Just make sure you take the penalties also.
Let's continue the first example listed above - what happens if the character is tripped while using his move action and there is no enemy in reach for him to attack?
What if the attack of opportunity disarms him and he and doesn't want to use an unarmed strike as it would provoke another attack of opportunity?
Why couldn't the character waiting for an attacker to arrive with a ready action get the bonuses and penalties of defensive fighting, while the archer shooting away can?
Because that's what you're arguing by saying 'no benefits until you roll a die'.
==Aelryinth
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No, you declare you are fighting defensively or using Combat Expertise when you attack (either as a standard or a full-round action). You can't declare it, take a move action and benefit from it during that move action, and then make the attack as a standard action.
Stephen
You're saying you can't approach a dangerous foe in a defensive posture and swing at him, but the archer back there shooting once has no problem, because he got to roll the die before he moved? I'm not sure I'm reading you right.
You're saying I can't use Expertise or Defensive Fighting to up my AC against an Archer, unless I can shoot back at him?
Or am I missing something?
Or, you can't Ready an attack in defensive posture, taking all bonuses and penalties thereunto, even if you don't make an attack?
I'm zoning on something if that's what you're ruling, because it really makes no sense to me.
I know that you can make an attack and then take a move action, getting the bonus to AC for the full time. Why, since I am declaring an attack action, would I not gain a bonus until and beyond the time I made an attack roll, if I've committed to it? Because that seems an extremely narrow interpretation of what Defensive Fighting is.
Because this is what we are arguing over. The idea that the die roll starts the Defensive Fighting has never been played that way at any table I've been at, ever.
You declared Defensive Fighting at the beginning of your attack action, and all bonuses and penalties (and inability to spellcast) lasted until the beginning of your next turn, when you could reset your posture if you wanted to. It has NEVER hinged on the die roll.
==Aelryinth
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So, you're saying you can't approach a dangerous foe in a defensive posture and swing at him, but the archer back there shooting once has no problem, because he got to roll the die before he moved?
Or am I missing something?
Or, you can't Ready an attack in defensive posture, taking all bonuses and penalties thereunto, even if you don't make an attack?
I'm missing something if that's what you're ruling, because it really makes no sense to me.
I know that you can make an attack and then take a move action, getting the bonus to AC for the full time. Why, since I am declaring an attack action, would I not gain a bonus until the instant I made an attack roll? Because that seems an extremely narrow interpretation of what Defensive Fighting is.
Because this is what we are arguing over. The idea that the die roll starts the Defensive Fighting has never been played that way at any table I've been at, ever.
==Aelryinth
What I'm saying is that fighting defensively starts when you attack and lasts until the start of your next turn (Core Rulebook 184 and 187) as does Combat Expertise (Core Rulebook 119) , which I believe was the question.
I'm sorry it makes no sense to you, but it written that way in the rules. I hope it helps.
But I start my attack when I take a move action to close, or when I start a charge. NOT when I roll a die.
that interpretation completely destroys expertise and defensive fighting as a defense against foes you cannot reach.
So, I'll reiterate...by attack, do you mean 'attack roll of the die' or 'declaration of the attack action?'
Because if it's the former, there's going to be a lot of vicious rolls against the air declared.
==Aelryinth
Expertise and Defensive fighting are melee styles. You can't use either, unless and until you go up to said Archer and smack face.Stephen
You're saying you can't approach a dangerous foe in a defensive posture and swing at him, but the archer back there shooting once has no problem, because he got to roll the die before he moved? I'm not sure I'm reading you right.
You're saying I can't use Expertise or Defensive Fighting to up my AC against an Archer, unless I can shoot back at him?
Kudaku has provided all the relevant quotes.
Expertise is specifically limited to melee weapons. Defensive fighting is not.Attack actions make no artificial distinction between missile and melee combat. A full attack with a bow is the same as a full attack with a sword for defensive fighting.
I feel some tossing stones at too distant foes, or swinging at out of reach enemies, to activate Defensive Fighting and Expertise coming on. "Whoops, I missed. But I got to roll, benefits kicked on!"
==Aelryinth
But I start my attack when I take a move action to close, or when I start a charge. NOT when I roll a die.
that interpretation completely destroys expertise and defensive fighting as a defense against foes you cannot reach.
That's correct. They were never meant to be used that way. Faced with enemy missle fire you've got the following choices.
1. Hope someone puts up Protection from Arrows.
2. Shoot back.
3. Seek cover. Cover is the main defense against missle fire when magic isn't available. Then shoot back.
Or, like, you know, focusing on dodging/parrying? Which is the option when cover isn't around?
==Aelryinth
But I start my attack when I take a move action to close, or when I start a charge. NOT when I roll a die.
that interpretation completely destroys expertise and defensive fighting as a defense against foes you cannot reach.
So, I'll reiterate...by attack, do you mean 'attack roll of the die' or 'declaration of the attack action?'
Because if it's the former, there's going to be a lot of vicious rolls against the air declared.
==Aelryinth
No, I'm saying you take either the attack action or the full-attack action as it states in both the feat description and either the "Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action" and "Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action."
No, I'm saying you take either the attack action or the full-attack action as it states in both the feat description and either the "Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action" and "Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action."But I start my attack when I take a move action to close, or when I start a charge. NOT when I roll a die.
that interpretation completely destroys expertise and defensive fighting as a defense against foes you cannot reach.
So, I'll reiterate...by attack, do you mean 'attack roll of the die' or 'declaration of the attack action?'
Because if it's the former, there's going to be a lot of vicious rolls against the air declared.
==Aelryinth
Okay. Attacks are standard actions, so that would include the movement portion, be it before or after the die roll.
you still have the silliness of having to either throw something at the enemy or shadow-box to generate an 'attack' if you're going to hard-rule you must actually roll a die during the action.
Realistically, you'd just get the benefits and penalties until the beginning of the next turn.
And since a charge is a special attack action, its movement phase would also be included. Also good to know. Although since it's not a standard or full attack, I'm not sure you could defensive fight (which would be nigh useless), but you could certainly expertise.
==Aelryinth
Okay. Attacks are standard actions, so that would include the movement portion, be it before or after the die roll.
No, the movement portion is a move action: a different action entirely. If you are charging, that is a special full-round action not a full-attack action, and hence you cannot do either of these things when you charge.
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Stephen, it says right in the rules that an Attack is a standard action.
Attack
Making an attack is a standard action.
Right there off the PFSRD. http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html
Are you saying that the benefits don't occur until you roll a die?
Because that is what you seem to be stating, and you're artificially splitting up an attack into a move and a die roll, and furthermore making a distinction between before the die roll and after it for movement related to the attack.
yes, I'm splitting hairs, because that's what this whole thing is about. The definition of an attack as 'when you roll the die' or as 'when you start the standard or full round attack action.'
==Aelryinth
Stephen: while I have you here, would you mind answering one other question?
A character wields a longsword. On his round he makes a full attack while fighting defensively, wielding the longsword with both hands as a two-handed weapon. At the end of his turn he uses a free action to change grip on the longsword so he is now only wielding it with one hand, leaving the other hand free.
Does he qualify for Crane Wing's Dodge bonus? Technically he has one hand free when the enemy attack is made, though I'm not sure if he fulfills the requirements of the feat itself.
The description reads as follows: "Benefit: Once per round, when fighting defensively with at least one hand free, you can designate one melee attack being made against you before the roll is made. "
Feat link found here for convenience.
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Stephen, it says right in the rules that an Attack is a standard action.
Attack
Making an attack is a standard action.
Yes. And you want to add movement before that. Moving is, well a move action, or a full-round action. I really don't see what the problem with this concept is.
I want to move before I make an attack action. I move (move action) and then I attack (attack action). I can choose to use Combat Expertise or Fight Defensively as part of a attack action or a full-attack action. I cannot do it as part of a move action.
Since a charge is neither an attack action or a full-attack action, but rather a special full-round action called charge, I can't use Combat Expertise or Fighting Defensively as part of that action. It doesn't fit the requirements.
That's what I'm saying. Those are the rules.
YOu need to expand the examples, Kudaku.
A 2wf has a short sword in one hand, and throws daggers in the other. At the end of his turn, his throwing hand is empty. Does he qualify for Crane Wing once his hand is empty?
An archer shoots his bow for a full salvo. At the end of his turn, he is holding onto his bow with one hand, and has no arrow in his other hand. Does he qualify for Crane Wing?
Cite: A reach weapon wielder with spiked gauntlets can remove his hand from his weapon and make AoO's with it without penalty, covering his immediate area inside his reach weapon. It is a recommended tactic for reach weapon wielders, and it has been for years. At the beginning of his turn, he grasps his weapon again and attacks normally.
==Aelryinth
I'm a leathery Grognard and I agree with Aelryinth 100%,but then again I see the RAW and have to agree that there is an issue with the mechanics that prevents def fighting from being used in a logically cohesive manner.
It reminds me of like the dragon style (iirc) allowing you to ignore dif terrain when withdrawing but not when moving normally.
"You mean I can move up this hill easily if there's a goblin standing next to me?...but if there's not I can't!?"lol
Reason would indicate that you should be able to do the same thing the same way whether or not theirs a gobbo pulling on your skirt tails.
But game mechanics have there own internal logic that has nothing to do with reality.I feel that's what we're seeing here:the old RAW vs. RAI argument.It's irresolvable.
DM arbitration is required.
Stephen: while I have you here, would you mind answering one other question?
A character wields a longsword. On his round he makes a full attack while fighting defensively, wielding the longsword with both hands as a two-handed weapon. At the end of his turn he uses a free action to change grip on the longsword so he is now only wielding it with one hand, leaving the other hand free.
Does he qualify for Crane Wing's Dodge bonus? Technically he has one hand free when the enemy attack is made, though I'm not sure if he fulfills the requirements of the feat itself.
The description reads as follows: "Benefit: Once per round, when fighting defensively with at least one hand free, you can designate one melee attack being made against you before the roll is made. "
Feat link found here for convenience.
That one does not have as clear of an answer. As far as I know, the rules do not say what kind of action it is to change a weapon grip from one-handed to two-handed. A free action seems reasonable to me, and I know that is how a lot of people play it, so I would allow it, though I can't tell you that is what the rules say about it.
Stephen, it says right in the rules that an Attack is a standard action.
Attack
Making an attack is a standard action.
Yes. And you want to add movement before that. Moving is, well a move action, or a full-round action. I really don't see what the problem with this concept is.
I want to move before I make an attack action. I move (move action) and then I attack (attack action). I can choose to use Combat Expertise or Fight Defensively as part of a attack action or a full-attack action. I cannot do it as part of a move action.
Since a charge is neither an attack action or a full-attack action, but rather a special full-round action called charge, I can't use Combat Expertise or Fighting Defensively as part of that action. It doesn't fit the requirements.
That's what I'm saying. Those are the rules.
Okay, so the bonus applies after the attack.
Corollary argument: Can you do this without actually making an attack roll at an enemy, or do I really have to toss a rock in his general direction, or shadow-box the air to start the process?
Because once again that's blatantly unfair to melee characters who have to move and attack. ANd the bonuses from Expertise are supposed to apply against all creatures, not just the one you attacked.
==Aelryinth
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Okay, so the bonus applies after the attack.
Corollary argument: Can you do this without actually making an attack roll at an enemy, or do I really have to toss a rock in his general direction, or shadow-box the air to start the process?
Because once again that's blatantly unfair to melee characters who have to move and attack.
==Aelryinth
It is not about the roll, it is about the action. As long as you are throwing the rock as an attack action, sure. But you are still taking a standard action to do so.
I think you are confusing the attack action with the actual rolling of a melee or ranged attack. They are two separate things in the rules.
That one does not have as clear of an answer. As far as I know, the rules do not say what kind of action it is to change a weapon grip from one-handed to two-handed. A free action seems reasonable to me, and I know that is how a lot of people play it, so I would allow it, though I can't tell you that is what the rules say about it.
It is indeed a free action to switch weapon grip, as stated in this FAQ - the question is rather if the Crane Wing user qualifies for the "one hand free while fighting defensively"-requirement when he has no free hands while actually making the attacks.
On a related note, thank you for your quick and illuminating answers, Stephen - these questions have been argued back in forth in the Crane wing thread for pages and pages. I really appreciate you shedding some light on it :)
Okay, so the bonus applies after the attack.
Corollary argument: Can you do this without actually making an attack roll at an enemy, or do I really have to toss a rock in his general direction, or shadow-box the air to start the process?
Because once again that's blatantly unfair to melee characters who have to move and attack.
==Aelryinth
It is not about the roll, it is about the action. As long as you are throwing the rock as an attack action, sure. But you are still taking a standard action to do so.
I think you are confusing the attack action with the actual rolling of a melee or ranged attack. They are two separate things in the rules.
And so if I Ready an Attack action, I'm all good with Defensive Fighting?
==Aelryinth
That one does not have as clear of an answer. As far as I know, the rules do not say what kind of action it is to change a weapon grip from one-handed to two-handed. A free action seems reasonable to me, and I know that is how a lot of people play it, so I would allow it, though I can't tell you that is what the rules say about it.It is indeed a free action to switch weapon grip, as stated in this FAQ - the question is rather if the Crane Wing user qualifies for the "one hand free while fighting defensively"-requirement when he has no free hands while actually making the attacks.
On a related note, thank you for your quick and illuminating answers, Stephen - these questions have been argued back in forth in the Crane wing thread for pages and pages. I really appreciate you shedding some light on it :)
That was never the issue, Kudaku.
If you 2h a weapon on your attack, Crane Wing is not protecting you during your attack. Nobody disputed that.
People were arguing that after you let go of your weapon and had your hand free, you didn't get the benefit of Crane Wing, despite satisfying all the conditions.
==Aelryinth
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It is indeed a free action to switch weapon grip, as stated in this FAQ - the question is rather if the Crane Wing user qualifies for the "one hand free while fighting defensively"-requirement when he has no free hands while actually making the attacks.
On a related note, thank you for your quick and illuminating answers, Stephen - these questions have been argued back in forth in the Crane wing thread for pages and pages. I really appreciate you shedding some light on it :)
Ah, I thought we did an FAQ about it, but couldn't find it on a quick search. It is definitely not in the rulebook, though. Oh well.
This starts to get into rules intent material, but yes you can. The idea behind having the had free is that you must have a hand free to foil the attack, since this is primarily a weaponless martial arts style (wax on, wax off). The one hand free is to block the attack, not as a limiting factor that you have to have one hand free throughout the entirety of your fighting defensively. It so you have the tools for the job.
That said, your GM is well within her right to limit the free actions you can perform in a round, and to rule that in order to use crane style you must have one hand free throughout your entire fighting defensively up to that point, if it makes sense to her.
I hope that helps, even when I cannot give concrete answers. Good gaming everyone. :)
RAW, I don't think you can.
Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action
You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 to AC until the start of your next turn.
RAW, this seems to suggest that fighting defensively is it's own Standard action. Which would mean, like Vital Strike, it couldn't be combined with a charge/Spring Attack; or with things like Magus Spellstrike. It would also mean it wouldn't take effect until you took the Standard action to make the Fighting Defensively attack.
RAI, I think it's pretty obvious it's intended to be a mode of fighting you can toggle on at will, and almost every game I've played in has run it that way.
But the RAW view has some credence, because if it was intended to be a mode of fighting you could activate at will, it would more accurately belong in the list of free actions. And if it was intended to be something you could just "turn on" at will, they wouldn't need Total Defense as a standard action for those situations where you're unable to make an attack.
I think there's some written text here that's leftover from the conversion from 3rd edition, and they never bothered to update it. It might also be intentional to prevent "I'm defensively fighting while casting x spell" (attack roll or not).
It's always been played as something you could toggle on and off at the start of your turn...not as a free action, which would mean you could turn it on, off, on, off, DURING your turn.
And Total Defense is there if you don't want to attack. Fighting Defensively has been there if you wanted to be defensive, but still able to attack.
And since it always required an attack action, you couldn't cast while fighting defensively...at least, not at any table I've been at that couldn't cast while attack (i.e. duskblades and magus')
==Aelryinth
It is indeed a free action to switch weapon grip, as stated in this FAQ - the question is rather if the Crane Wing user qualifies for the "one hand free while fighting defensively"-requirement when he has no free hands while actually making the attacks.
On a related note, thank you for your quick and illuminating answers, Stephen - these questions have been argued back in forth in the Crane wing thread for pages and pages. I really appreciate you shedding some light on it :)
Ah, I thought we did an FAQ about it, but couldn't find it on a quick search. It is definitely not in the rulebook, though. Oh well.
This starts to get into rules intent material, but yes you can. The idea behind having the had free is that you must have a hand free to foil the attack, since this is primarily a weaponless martial arts style (wax on, wax off). The one hand free is to block the attack, not as a limiting factor that you have to have one hand free throughout the entirety of your fighting defensively. It so you have the tools for the job.
That said, your GM is well within her right to limit the free actions you can perform in a round, and to rule that in order to use crane style you must have one hand free throughout your entire fighting defensively up to that point, if it makes sense to her.
I hope that helps, even when I cannot give concrete answers. Good gaming everyone. :)
If you're all done, Mr. Anti-Paladin, I thank you for your time.
==Aelryinth
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And so if I Ready an Attack action, I'm all good with Defensive Fighting?
==Aelryinth
Only if you ready an attack action, and not until you take that attack action, which will be in response to the conditions you specify and and just before the triggering action.
Readying an action, even readying an attack action is not an attack action, it is a special initiative action. The act of taking the attack action just before the trigger is, and that's when you can choose to use Combat Expertise or fight defensively with a standard action.
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And so if I Ready an Attack action, I'm all good with Defensive Fighting?
Kind of. It would only come into affect after you actually resolved the attack action. Look at the following example:
You ready an action to attack the first enemy that approaches your melee range, fighting defensively.
An enemy fires at you on his turn with a ranged weapon. You benefit from the increased AC from fighting defensively.
The round continues until it is once again your turn. No enemies approached within your melee range.
You never used your Readied action, you never made an attack, which means you never qualified for Defensive Fighting, which you've already gained the benefit from - in effect you've created a paradox, a contradiction in the rules.
On the other hand, if you run Fighting Defensively as activating when you first make your attack:
You ready an action to attack the first enemy that approaches your melee range, intending to fight defensively.
An enemy fires at you on his turn with a ranged weapon. You do not benefit from fighting defensively.
The round continues until it is once again your turn. No enemies approached within your melee range.
You never used your readied action, you never made an attack, which means you never got to benefit from fighting defensively. However since that bonus was not taken into account before you made your attack, there is no contradiction in the rules set.
helpful stuff
Thanks again Stephen :)
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If you're all done, Mr. Anti-Paladin, I thank you for your time.
==Aelryinth
You are welcome, good sir. I had time for your other questions. Hope it helps.
And so if I Ready an Attack action, I'm all good with Defensive Fighting?
==Aelryinth
Only if you ready an attack action, and not until you take that attack action, which will be in response to the conditions you specify and and just before the triggering action.
Readying an action, even readying an attack action is not an attack action, it is a special initiative action. The act of taking the attack action just before the trigger is, and that's when you can choose to use Combat Expertise or fight defensively with a standard action.
Ugh. So, just burn the attack action and get the AC benefits and ability to take AoO, but lose the actual attack...or get to take the attack and get no benefits until you do.
I really, really hate how the game treats melees. The archer does not have the same problems.
See, if you do nothing, you have no attack or defense penalty. IF I go defensive, instead of replacing the default conditions of 0/0 with -4/+3, I actually have to wait until I take an attack action to gain the benefits and penalties. If I ready an action normally, 0/0. If I ready an action defensively, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaait....until the action is triggered for the benefits? When basically I'm just changing my fighting posture?
ugh.
Makes no logical sense.
==Aelryinth