My thoughts on Gathering / Refining / Crafting / Enchanting

[XyonsBanjo]

Intro
I did a few searches and it seems some people have similar ideas as me as far as crafting goes, many people reference Star Wars Galaxy’s crafting system, which I am not familiar with, but from brief descriptions sounds like an alright thing to be based off of rather than the ‘standard’ method of crafting you find in many games. Many of the threads I found on here were quite old so instead of necromancing them back I thought I’d just start a new thread to share my ideas for PO, as suggested in the goblinworks FAQ.
My basic theme for gathering and refining is resources being useful from low level to high level. With crafting, the basic idea is generic recipes with outcomes depending on materials instead of specific recipes with specific requirements and outcomes.

Gathering
For resources that can be gathered, there could be different quality levels for these resources. It could be in two tiers with low/high quality, or three tiers with low/medium/high quality (or low/high/excellent). So when you go gathering ores, you could end up with low or high quality iron ore in different quantities depending on the place and circumstances

Refining
Now that you have iron ore, it needs refined into iron metal that can be used in crafting. In addition to the ore, there would need to be some other reagent added in for the refining process. As a final product you would end up with either low or high quality iron metal. Either low or high quality could be obtained as an end result based on how much extra reagent you use during the refining. Both high and low quality ore would require reagent added in to refine, with high quality ore requiring less reagent than low quality ore to end up with low quality metal, and if you add even more reagent or some other circumstances you can end up with high quality metal as the product. This way, even low quality ore can be refined down to high quality metal if you are willing to pump in enough extra time/money/skill into the production.

Crafting
So after refining materials, you can use them in crafting final products. And this process I think should be very interesting with a wide variety of outcomes possible. The ‘standard’ crafting format might have many different specific recipes that progress from low to high level, such as first making a ‘copper shortsword’ then an ‘iron shortsword’ then ‘ubermetal shortsword’ then ‘omnimetal shortsword’ sort of progression. Each step has very specific material requirement and a very specific outcome. While this works as a system, it is very boring. I like a more generic ‘shortsword’ recipe that allows you to place any parts into the recipe that meet the basic requirements for the recipe, and the final outcome of the recipe depends on the materials that you used, and the skill level of the crafter.

So what I see happening is maybe a weapon crafter decides to select a basic or martial weapon recipe, selects high/low quality metals/leather/cloth/wood that are needed to meet the requirements of that weapon, and the properties and quality of the materials used determine the damage, hardness/hp(or durability of that system is being used), weight, crit chance, crit modifier, etc. As the crafter levels up and gains more abilities/skills, I see exotic weapons being opened up, as well as “exotic modifiers” that can be added into the items creation. If you have ever seen dwarven/elven weapons, or perhaps you remember the ‘mercurial longsword’, these would take your basic/martial weapon being created, and have the final product be an exotic weapon with special properties being added to it. Additional slots for decoration or masterwork components could be added through unlocking new skill as well.

In addition to practical items like iron/steel/adamantine/mithril/others being crafted, unpractical/decorative items should also be able to be created using these generic templates, like if you wanted to make a golden or silver(different than the anti-werewolf silver weapon) decorative longsword with precious/breakable gems as something to wear, or to sell to other players for them to wear, or even rich NPCs who want new weapons/armor to wear as a sign of their wealth rather than to actually use in battle.

This generic crafting template can be used on everything from weapons/armor to food/buildings/structures/potions, basically anything that could be crafted could also fit into a generic template with varying materials available to be used in those recipes.

Enchanting
Much like how refining has a chemical reagent that allows the ore to be refined to metal, enchanting a masterwork item into a magical one can use a standard ‘magical reagent’ as part of the materials used to create these powerful items.
I see there being one generic reagent that is used in all enchantments, and depending on the type of enhancements being placed on the item, different secondary reagents being required.
So maybe you are enchanting up from masterwork to +1. You’d need a certain amount of the basic reagent, and maybe a little bit of the ‘enhancement bonus’ reagent. If you go up to +2, you’d need more basic reagent and even more ‘EHB’ reagent. Maybe you want to add ice damage, so you’d use some more basic reagent, and then some ‘ice’ reagent. Or ice resistance would require basic reagent and ‘ice’ reagent as well.
Basic reagent could be refined from many sources that could be gathered with or without combat, while other specialized reagents could be refined from items you might see as material components in D&D/Pathfinder in order to cast spells. Things like gryphon feathers, dragon blood, rare gems, claws/teeth/horns, all sorts of stuff you’d get from killing powerful and possibly magical monsters.

So, now that I’ve said my piece, I can at least be satisfied that my input has been made.

Also, just.. please PLEASE dont make crafting anything like Neverwinter Online's crafting...

[Pax Shane Gifford]

Firstly, welcome to the discussions. Nice fat post, and I agree with a lot of what you're saying. :)

This last sentence is the one I want to pick on for my response. What do you not like about Neverwinter Online's crafting?

For those who aren't aware, Neverwinter Online has a system which is basically like a Facebook game-style time management system; you have x amount of crafters at your disposal, they can make y recipes with what you have and these recipes take some amount of time (scaling from minutes up to days), and it mostly rewards players for checking in on the game as often as possible to constantly get your crafters working on something else.

[DeciusBrutus]

I would prefer that there not be limits to the size of the production queue, provided that materials are present.

[XyonsBanjo]

Pax Shane Gifford wrote:

Firstly, welcome to the discussions. Nice fat post, and I agree with a lot of what you're saying. :)

This last sentence is the one I want to pick on for my response. What do you not like about Neverwinter Online's crafting?

For those who aren't aware, Neverwinter Online has a system which is basically like a Facebook game-style time management system; you have x amount of crafters at your disposal, they can make y recipes with what you have and these recipes take some amount of time (scaling from minutes up to days), and it mostly rewards players for checking in on the game as often as possible to constantly get your crafters working on something else.

I don't feel engaged in the NO crafting system. It feels more like an afterthought added to the game 'because MMORPGS need a crafting system', most of the items I use on my character don't come from crafting, and none of the items I can craft feel like anyone would want them.

The timers make it something you just wait for while you play 'the real game'.

[Banesama]

XyonsBanjo wrote:

I don't feel engaged in the NO crafting system. It feels more like an afterthought added to the game 'because MMORPGS need a crafting system', most of the items I use on my character don't come from crafting, and none of the items I can craft feel like anyone would want them.

The timers make it something you just wait for while you play 'the real game'.

That won't be the case in PFO. The devs have repeatedly said that almost all of your equipment will be player made.

I do hope crafting will be more involved instead of setting orders and then go do something else.

[Bringslite]

The funny thing is, I don't believe that the majority of players that really love crafting in MMOs mind spending time at the workbench if it is interesting. "Set an Forget" seems, to me, like it will only encourage a great deal more crafting Alts and lessen a crafter's overall value a bit.

[Banesama]

Not sure if it would be a viable way to do crafting in PFO and I have very little crafting experience. But there is one game I remember (it wasn't an MMO though) that I enjoyed crafting.

It was Rogue Galaxy. First you had to obtain the Blueprints, then set the parts needed to make the item (there were usually multiple ways, some efficient others not), then you placed the material and constructed the item you wanted.

[Lord of Elder Days]

The best item crafting I have encountered in a video game was in The Sims Medieval. It was based on mini games that really reflected the type of crafting you were doing. If you were smithing a sword you had to keep the for and metal at just the right temperature. Each fuel type burned at different temperatures and each metal needed to be smelted under specific conditions. While such an indepth system might not work for mass produced stuff that our NPCs make I think it would be fun for crafting masterwork items.

[Being]

I could write a small book on the wonderful crafting experience in Dragonrealms, a text MUD by Simutronics that is still running.

To forge weapons and armor you had to have the strength and stamina to do so. You had to refresh yourself occasionally by dousing yourself with water because of the oppressive heat from the forge. And each time you performed a crafting action you had a failure chance that was not random but had to do with your skill and your condition. It wasn't just assemble the raw materials and sit back to watch a timer, you had to step perfectly through a sometimes long and complicated list of processes in order to achieve a flawless product.

Dragonrealms is also open world PVP. I recommend trying it if you have a good imagination and are good on the keyboard. The community there now generally has been with that game since the days of AOL, Compuserve and GEnie.

[Pax Shane Gifford]

Yep, many many ways to do crafting right. Let's hope GW stick with one of those.

[Pax Feydred]

One thing I would love to see is NO "30 second" timer bar counting down the crafting step. It's mind numbing.

A bar that raises as the item is being crafted with no numbers would keep player's eyes on the screen and engaged in the process. Using a bar with no known border would be crucial.

A low quality item would raise the bar to maybe 10% of the bar and after 5 seconds that crafting session would end. The higher quality items would max out at maybe 90% of the bar and would end after 45 seconds. The last 10% of the bar would keep players guessing and could be used for creating that coveted 0.01% uber rare quality item.

The reason for saving the last 10% for the highest quality items is to let crafters know they hit the jackpot. It would give them 15 seconds of suspense and anticipation before the item is actually crafted.

Another reason for not having a border around the crafting bar is to allow for potential one in a million quality items. "Ermagherd I never seen the bar go this high! Are we lagged out? I been crafting this item for 5 mins!"

[Being]

Unless something has changed the grunt work of crafting will be performed by NPCs. I'm unclear how exactly GW intends to realize that strategy.

[DeciusBrutus]

I think the intended operation is that you talk to the foreman of the facility doing the work (or the person doing the work, for small runs), and he tells you how far along in the production run things are and when the first items have/will come off of the line.

[Stephen Cheney]

Sadly the formatting seems to have exploded all nonstandard characters in one of his site moves, so this is a little hard to read, but Scott Jennings' thoughts on crafting are very salient to our current plans for the crafting system.

[Ryan Dancey]

Remember all that Crafting is one of those systems that has to start simply but can be Crowdforged into a very complex system over time if that is the will of the community.

[Bluddwolf]

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Remember all that Crafting is one of those systems that has to start simply but can be Crowdforged into a very complex system over time if that is the will of the community.

Lee Hammock (or his team) came up with a pretty decent crafting system in Fallen Earth. Are there any parallels between FE and PFO? What are the major differences, if any?

[Ryan Dancey]

Right now the crafting system is assemble the materials, load it into a job hopper, press a button, pay a tax, and be given a delivery date. Pretty much just like EVE.

[Bluddwolf]

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Right now the crafting system is assemble the materials, load it into a job hopper, press a button, pay a tax, and be given a delivery date. Pretty much just like EVE.

Will there be specific crafting centers that speed up the process?

Example: Armor smith's shop will make armor faster, than a Blacksmith's shop would.

[Ryan Dancey]

There is a plan to have a lot of options eventually but in the beginning I think there will be very generic choices - smiths, mills, etc.

[HalfOrc with a Hat of Disguise]

Actually, that raises an interesting question on Crafting Badges and player-made crafting/refining kits/booths/buildings.

How hard would it be to give players the option to pick badges out of a selection that might grant them the ability to refine a lower-grade Ore into a medium-grade metal, or a medium-grade herb into a high-grade component?

What about a gathering badge that can allow the player to increase the amount they can harvest from a node, at the cost of lowering their chance of getting a higher 'grade' of material?

Would it be worth-while to pursue badges that might allow your character to gain some quirky abilities in their gathering skill-tree to add some variety to what people can bring back from the wilds, the mines and the farms?

And what about Kits/Refining Buildings? Would it be worth-while to have Settlements being able to tweak their structures to take advantage of a plentiful but low-grade vein of precious ore nearby to up their % of refining higher-grade finished goods from a bulk of lower-grade materials? Should it be allowed, given that control of a high-grade vein would provoke outright war between settlements.

[Bluddwolf]

Of all the things possible with crafting, the one I hope for most is the ability to craft items that have a crafter's trait associated with them.

In SWG crafting system an exceptional outcome would produce a unique bonus to the item. Nothing that was OP, just a slightly better stat. Once a crafter unlocked this trait, he could produce the same trait on just an average roll.

I exclusively bought my pistols from one vendor. Not that there weren't other vendors who didn't produce excellent and unique pistols themselves, but they did not have the traits I valued most.

[AvenaOats]

I honestly don't know much at all about crafting. But reading the article:

1. Creativity -> Could this be not so much just skins (visual) but also productivity of options in skill-training the processing/making of ingredients. Could you have an experimentation skill as well as a standardization skill when crafting and between the 2 the crafter goes for greater quality vs greater volume per crafting session? The visual stuff I suppose allows the product some sort of consumer appeal seccondary pricing options? Eg collectors, self-expression (vanity)?

2. Business -> This seems to be logistics and chains of inputs to outputs and building a business up and making investments and so on! I guess it ends up like a big logic-gate circuit?

3. Social -> Does this come in several flavors: cottage industry, down-time or safe-time with friends, sales specialists and traders interacting with customers? Is there a Charisma skill to use here? What about the old Guild Secrets of the middle-ages?

I threw the dice here and may have landed 3 1's tbh!!!