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Without WT, you're closer to being on par with classes like the Magus or Inquisitor.With AC and saves way higher than they'll ever dream about.
With the loss from Combat expertise, you're even lower than that.Combat Expertise is situational -- you're assuming he'd use it full-time.
You're a bigger threat than classes not really intended for combat, but that's about it. You're not going to be tanking effectively, since the enemy has no real reason to care about your presence.
The enemy doesn't know a damned thing except that there's a very tough-looking dwarf blocking their way. He looks exactly like that other dwarf who's a reckless raging barbarian with an AC about fifteen lower. Either way, he's probably begging for that ray spell that you totally want to cast....
It won't be until three rounds into the fight that the BBEGs get an inkling that they're completely wasting their time flailing impotently against T'nk's phenomenal AC and saving throws -- and if the dwarf's allies haven't shot them full of holes by then, then they suck at their jobs.
Sure: if you the player brag about it to an annoyed GM, then certain situations may arise down the road. But for mustered PFS tables, you soldier on like a machine with everything bouncing off you like you were made out of manhole-covers.
Without WT, you're closer to being on par with classes like the Magus or Inquisitor.With AC and saves way higher than they'll ever dream about.
I don't understand this. Fighters have some of the worst saves in the entire game.
It won't be until three rounds into the fight that the BBEGs get an inkling that they're completely wasting their time flailing impotently against T'nk's phenomenal AC and saving throws
Also, why would it take three rounds for them to realize? Do you mean they'll spend three entire rounds pounding uselessly before they realize that it's not a good idea?
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I don't understand this. Fighters have some of the worst saves in the entire game.Without WT, you're closer to being on par with classes like the Magus or Inquisitor.With AC and saves way higher than they'll ever dream about.
We are discussing his fighter. +10/+7/+9 against spells at 1st level.
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Actually I had in mind the Shield master feat, but indeed two handing a heavy bashing spiked shield is a very effective strategy. You enjoy every bonus a typical two-hander has, minor the critical threat range, and you combine it with great AC. A brawler probably does this best, although a paladin or a barbarian can be just as effective.
This seems like an incredible idea actually, assuming you can reach 11th level quick enough. Take away the only penalty for extra attacks and be left with up to 7-8 attacks at full attack and PA bonuses.
We are discussing his fighter. +10/+7/+9 against spells at 1st level.
How much of that is for being Fighter?
How much of that is for being Fighter?Bonus feat and not needing to pump a casting stat. Also being able to use heavier armor and shields.
So he could be, say, a Paladin, and get Steel Soul and Glory of Old for close the same effect, but better Will Save in the long run, and a bunch of inmunities, and the ability to self-heal (or Stonelord, for crit protection, damage reduction, extra Nat armor, etc).
Using the same array of stats, at just 6th level the Stonelord would get Nat armor +2, which offsets the Tower Shield. He gets DR 3, he gets better Will save, 25% chance to ignore crit or sneak, fear inmunity, an aura for his teammates, can heal himself 3x per day 3d6 as swift action, has a flanking buddy, and gets the stalwart defender ability to use it when he thinks it is useful.
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How much of that is for being Fighter?Bonus feat and not needing to pump a casting stat. Also being able to use heavier armor and shields.So he could be, say, a Paladin, and get Steel Soul and Glory of Old for close the same effect, but better Will Save in the long run, and a bunch of inmunities, and the ability to self-heal (or Stonelord, for crit protection, damage reduction, extra Nat armor, etc).
Using the same array of stats, at just 6th level the Stonelord would get Nat armor +2, which offsets the Tower Shield.....
The point of the tower shield archetype is to eventually convert it to touch AC, which reins in those smirking Empowered ray casters who think it's an instant-death trick up their sleeve which they'll spring whenever a melee is bled half out.
And a dwarf fighter dumps his CHA to 5 without barely anybody noticing because he's a natural grouch anyway. Getting it up to a measly 12 for a paladin represents a swing of 9 build points in a dwarf.
I can buy up a lot of other stats with 9 points.
Also: sometimes you're just tired of being good.
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T'nk edit: he has to switch a 3rd-level combat feat with a 1st-level general feat (since dwarves can't take two generals at 1st).
And a dwarf fighter dumps his CHA to 5 without barely anybody noticing because he's a natural grouch anyway. Getting it up to a measly 12 for a paladin represents a swing of 9 build points in a dwarf.
I can buy up a lot of other stats with 9 points.
Don't buy charisma then. Be a paladin with Charisma 5. The Stonelord archetype don't need charisma, has extra natural armor, and damage reduction. With a single dip in unbreakable fighter you could get DR 18 by level 10 I think if you fight defensively/combat expertise.
I think giving up part of the touch atack AC is a good trade of for all those inmunities, better saves, etc.
Why i love the paizo boards: everyone acts as if Antagonize wasnt ever printed.
(no sarcasm)
Why i love the paizo boards: everyone acts as if Antagonize wasnt ever printed.
(no sarcasm)
Standard Action. Most beatsticks dump Charisma. Requires more feat and skill resources to work reliably. Only works once per enemy. Only works on intelligent enemies that are susceptible to mind-affecting effects. "The effect ends if the creature is prevented from attacking you or attempting to do so would harm it" can mean that intelligent enemies aren't going to walk right into your poleaxe just because you taunted them.
Did I mention it's a Standard Action? Yes you're going to be building around attacks of opportunity, but ultimately, missing out on all your own turn's attacks is counterproductive. You're not getting their attention if you're not hitting them, and you're not inflicting the "dead" status effect nearly as often. That is a reliable way to stop someone from hitting the Wizard.
Yelling at the hooligans to "Come and 'ave a go, if you think you're 'ard enough!" is a free action. There is a reason everyone acts as if Antagonize wasn't ever printed: They'd otherwise be clamoring for a good taunt mechanic.
Antagonize is very effective (check is autosucceed at mid to high levels, feat states "would" not "might" so they will walk into your poleaxe or throw something at you, i see nothing preventing it on mind-immune, spending a standard to cause someobe to lose 1-2 rounds is often very worth it). Its not silly broken like before the double errata, but still powerful. But its incredibly silly and its good noone recommends using it.
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And a dwarf fighter dumps his CHA to 5 without barely anybody noticing because he's a natural grouch anyway. Getting it up to a measly 12 for a paladin represents a swing of 9 build points in a dwarf.
I can buy up a lot of other stats with 9 points.
Don't buy charisma then. Be a paladin with Charisma 5. The Stonelord archetype don't need charisma, has extra natural armor, and damage reduction. With a single dip in unbreakable fighter you could get DR 18 by level 10 I think if you fight defensively/combat expertise.
I think giving up part of the touch atack AC is a good trade of for all those inmunities, better saves, etc.
Well, T'nk gets hit for physical XP loss so rarely that DR is an extravagance. Being a stonelord instead of a tower shield specialist opens up being vulnerable to rays and AoE again (which TSS is designed to ameliorate). Not saying it's bad, just saying I like the idea of them needing crits rather than several mook casters on soften-up duty (because that's totally a given higher up).
TSS is an end-loaded archetype, to be sure, with the biggest bennies coming at 9th and 16th (after which you can thumb your nose at casters). So, YMWV.
Antagonise...
....Intimidate: ...The effect ends if the creature is prevented from attacking you or attempting to do so would harm it (for example, if you are on the other side of a chasm or a wall of fire)....
-- It's an OK feat, but anybody who thinks it will compel the target to blithely tromp through/into a bunch of AoOs and/or readied-actions hasn't read the ridiculously open-ended fine-print.
(Antagonize is one of those famously arbitrarily-worded ambiguous trap feats that Paizo just loves to inflict on harried GMs and annoyed players who don't get quite as much cheese as they were hoping for.)
As far the Diplomacy half of Antagonize, T'nk doesn't care about -2s to attack, because his job is to tank, not hit (that's the barbarian's job; he stands behind T'nk with a polearm).
Actually, the fine print isn't that open-ended. "Would harm it", followed by an example of something that normally always harm, is pretty clear in that it refers to things that are in fact guaranteed harms, such as AoE damage. If they wanted an open-ended fine-print, it would say "might harm it".
And a dwarf fighter dumps his CHA to 5 without barely anybody noticing because he's a natural grouch anyway. Getting it up to a measly 12 for a paladin represents a swing of 9 build points in a dwarf.
I can buy up a lot of other stats with 9 points.
Don't buy charisma then. Be a paladin with Charisma 5. The Stonelord archetype don't need charisma, has extra natural armor, and damage reduction. With a single dip in unbreakable fighter you could get DR 18 by level 10 I think if you fight defensively/combat expertise.
I think giving up part of the touch atack AC is a good trade of for all those inmunities, better saves, etc.Well, T'nk gets hit for physical XP loss so rarely that DR is an extravagance. Being a stonelord instead of a tower shield specialist opens up being vulnerable to rays and AoE again (which TSS is designed to ameliorate). Not saying it's bad, just saying I like the idea of them needing crits rather than several mook casters on soften-up duty (because that's totally a given higher up).
TSS is an end-loaded archetype, to be sure, with the biggest bennies coming at 9th and 16th (after which you can thumb your nose at casters). So, YMWV.
Yep, the TSS gets an advantage vs Rays. The Stonelord is tougher in regular melee because of DR, has better saves (Because of good will save), several inmunities (like fear, charm, etc) and with the stalwart defender powers, you can get 2 will saves or free AOO or more inmunities. If your greater concern is rays, then the TSS with his Ray Deflection does get an advantage. In any other situation, the stonelord is just much more tanky.
Antagonize is very effective (check is autosucceed at mid to high levels, feat states "would" not "might" so they will walk into your poleaxe or throw something at you, i see nothing preventing it on mind-immune, spending a standard to cause someobe to lose 1-2 rounds is often very worth it). Its not silly broken like before the double errata, but still powerful. But its incredibly silly and its good noone recommends using it.
The feat says flat out "This is a mind-affecting effect"
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Actually, the fine print (or Antagonize)isn't that open-ended. "Would harm it", followed by an example of something that normally always harm, is pretty clear in that it refers to things that are in fact guaranteed harms, such as AoE damage. If they wanted an open-ended fine-print, it would say "might harm it".
Hmm, let's see now: T'nk has a ring of Featherfall and climbing equipment; therefore the chasm won't harm him in the least. But getting hit by the readied actions (which T'nk totally made the Sense Motive check to deduce) of three bad guys having a ~15% and two 5% respective chances of inflicting damage. Of greater import, however, is the problem of breaking ranks to march into the enemy formation like a complete f#@*ing idiot (which T'nk certainly isn't, given INT and WIS both at 14 and having failed no will-save) leading to disastrous results in the immediate future.
-- See?
Feats written like that need all good GMs to just beat them over and over until they yelp in pain and scamper away to hide under a big rock.