About to run Jade Regent, small changes made to the plot, what do people think?


Jade Regent


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So I'm thinking about making the following changes to the AP:

1: The Amatatsus are the ruling family of Minkai, and the Oni are bound to not rule if there is still a scion of the family present. (I.e. no five families)

2: I'm planning on subbing out the second half of the Forest of Spirits for the Ruby Phoenix tournament (as you do) as part of the hunt for the imperial regalia of Minkai (the seal/mirror, the magatama/jewel and Suishen/Grasscutter) which will be needed to crown the true ruler of the country.

Questions:

- Would the above two changes make much impact to what is already in the AP (i.e. do the other five families play big roles?)

- What should the special powers of the Magatama (held in the vault of the Ruby Phoenix, Hao Jin) be?

- Any other advice?

Cheers,
prototype00


By making the first change the well of demons become a. waste of time. On second thought the whole story makes absolutely no sense.

I should have run the tournament.


Really? Couldn't the well of demons be full of the failed past emperors of Minkai and Amatatsu Shigure withholds his blessing until his corpse is retrieved for burial?

prototype00


I think the Well of Demons could still make some kind of sense.
For example:
The five families exist: the ruling clan, and the four noble houses who choose which Amatatsu heir takes the throne.
Or, the Well of Demons exists, but the former emperors are all Amatatsus. Ameiko is seeking the approval of her ancestors.


Ok, let's get more cryptic. How would the Amatatsu seal have gotten to Brinewall in the first place? Or better said what would be the greater catalyst to get Ameiko to drop everything to go to Minkai? The plot hooks are fairly weak as it is, by getting rid of the five families, you get rid of the logic of Grandpa having the seal, obviously Shigure would have needed to have the seal in order to have become emperor which happened after Grandpa left Minkai.

How many ancestors would you then need approval from? It seems to me that it would get too convoluted.


Insnare wrote:
How would the Amatatsu seal have gotten to Brinewall in the first place?

Stolen by loyal ninja just before the flight of the surviving clan members.

Insnare wrote:
How many ancestors would you then need approval from?

Five / as many as possible.


Insnare wrote:
Ok, let's get more cryptic. How would the Amatatsu seal have gotten to Brinewall in the first place? Or better said what would be the greater catalyst to get Ameiko to drop everything to go to Minkai? The plot hooks are fairly weak as it is, by getting rid of the five families, you get rid of the logic of Grandpa having the seal, obviously Shigure would have needed to have the seal in order to have become emperor which happened after Grandpa left Minkai.

So the following sequence could take place:

1.) Amatatsu Shigure ascends the throne, he is a weak and unpopular ruler and depends heavily on his childhood friend Soto Takahiro for support and his seer Reiishi Maeda for guidance.

2.) Someone starts to assassinate Amatatsu family members.

3.) Shigure, panicking, follows Reiishi's advice and makes Soto Takahiro the Jade Regent and is slain

4.) The Seal, Suishen and The Magatama are stolen by loyal ninjas and spirited away by Lonjiku, while the remaining Amatatsus fight to prevent their discovery. They are soon slain to a man.

5.) The reign of the Jade Regent begins.

Quote:
How many ancestors would you then need approval from? It seems to me that it would get too convoluted.

Hmm, I would have to think about this, but the easy answer is, Just One.

In this case, Amatatsu Onnako could be a Servant of Shizure sent to guide them (and not an Amatatsu at all), and Shigure's blessing or one of the evil previous emperors's blessing would do.

prototype00


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Any particular reason why you'd want to cut out the other four families? And, yeah, Ruby Phoenix Tournament makes a good sub for the overlong and boring dungeon. I used it just that way.


If you really wanted to change something, I would do it with book 3. The whole possessed Yeti part is begging to be cut or altered which is what I did.

Loyal ninjas... is it me or is that an oxymoron... :)

I heartily recommend the Baleful Coven by Legendary Games to add to the book 3 stuff. It is amazing and it fits in tidily with the campaign.


magnuskn wrote:
Any particular reason why you'd want to cut out the other four families? And, yeah, Ruby Phoenix Tournament makes a good sub for the overlong and boring dungeon. I used it just that way.

It was mostly thinking about leveraging the "Rule of Three" in this case the mirror, the jewel and the sword of Japanese mythology. If there were multiple families, the seal kind of loses its impact as one of the three great objects of rule.

And if I do go with the five families, what maguffin can I throw into the Ruby Phoenix tourney to make the final payoff worthwhile?

Also, I wonder if having five families dilutes the urgency of the plot somewhat?

prototype00

Edit: Other good point made, the crossing the mountain AP is also kind of a drag, I'll give the Baleful Coven a look, but anyone want to suggest another AP of around the same level to swap in?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Not really, since they have all been wiped out, except for Ameiko.


magnuskn wrote:
Not really, since they have all been wiped out, except for Ameiko.

So let me turn the point on its head, what is the point of having five families? What narrative benefit does it provide?

prototype00


Short version: It gives an explanation for why there wasn't a massive backlash when the heirs of the only possible ruling family started dying, and it provides one final escape hatch if all of the original party and Ameiko dies (a missing heir of one of the remaining families needs to be found since the last Amatatsu is gone.)


But as Magnuskun stated, the heirs of all the ruling families started dying. I dunno, that would get some people worked up? I expect, anyway.

But in this case, I'm hoping to leverage the fact that Shigure was such a weak and easily cowed ruler who listed to bad advice (no shortage of that, really) that the people were almost rebelling against him (hence the paranoia), so when the Jade Regent took the throne, the people were almost relieved, until it turned out he was much worse and lived for basically ever.

As to the final escape hatch, meh, if the Party TPK, I'm not particularly hung up on making the world of Pathfinder keep on chugging for the sake of Paizo. I have bigger things to worry about at that point.

prototype00


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Hm, it kinda seems as if you haven't invested much time yet into reading the backstory of the campaign and Minkai. I would recommend investing said time before making your decision, but ultimately it is of course up to you.


magnuskn wrote:
Hm, it kinda seems as if you haven't invested much time yet into reading the backstory of the campaign and Minkai. I would recommend investing said time before making your decision, but ultimately it is of course up to you.

Really? News to me.

I have all parts of the AP and have read over them. Both Dragons Empire books as well. Still see no strong reason to have five families.

prototype00


@Chris Kenney
That final escape hatch is not necessary since the Amatatsu Seal can actually turn people into Amatatsu Scions, giving them the ability of divine rule if no other heir is present/alive. Which basically means that the backlash for Amatatsu Scions dying isn't as great as one would believe.

Spoiler:

This is why the Jade Regent wanted the Amatatsu Seal because he can't rule if there is an Amatatsu scion, so he wanted to kill the last one, invest one of his own as an Amatatsu scion and destroy the seal which can only be destroyed by an Amatatsu scion, than likely chuck the remaining scion into the Well of Demons...

I agree that the Five Families are not necessary for the storyline, except for the Teitoku line, which is important only that they predate Minkai nation as rulers of the Teitoku Shogunate nation so essentially it is just background information, and has nothing to do with the Imperial Regelia of Minkai if you are going for that.

You can also change the Jade Regent to a high ranking general of the Amatatsu family that conveniently stepped in after the rest of them fled, which explains why his rule is already on shaky grounds, but for whatever reason (likely bribery, murder, and blackmail) the "nobles" supported him.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
prototype00 wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Hm, it kinda seems as if you haven't invested much time yet into reading the backstory of the campaign and Minkai. I would recommend investing said time before making your decision, but ultimately it is of course up to you.

Really? News to me.

I have all parts of the AP and have read over them. Both Dragons Empire books as well. Still see no strong reason to have five families.

prototype00

As I said, it's your campaign, do what you like. There still is no need I see to change the official story, but if it's an urge in you, go ahead.


On the other side of things, if I remember correctly the five families were meant to balance each other (and likely represent the "Five Elements" or whatever that are popular in things that use Japanese influences) so that something like the Teitoku Shogunate didn't repeat itself which makes them important background-wise as well.

(Mind you that I am just going on complete memory here and do not have the information onhand)


DundjinnMasta wrote:

@Chris Kenney

That final escape hatch is not necessary since the Amatatsu Seal can actually turn people into Amatatsu Scions, giving them the ability of divine rule if no other heir is present/alive. Which basically means that the backlash for Amatatsu Scions dying isn't as great as one would believe.

There are at least three places where the Seal can be plausibly lost to the party and beyond recovery built into the AP if the party is too slow to respond to various things. If they haven't opened the Seal between those occasions, they can lose the ability to invest new Scions.

If they manage to lose the Seal, the entire party to attrition, Ameiko, and their last-ditch replacement...well, at that point they were probably never meant to succeed


As for why people haven't been getting worked up is because they don't know that Shigure is dead. They figure that he is an antisocial recluse that left ruling to the JR.

Yeah, if you have a TPK in the Well of Demons the campaign is pretty much over, without some serious fudging.

I always liked the Five Families reminds me of the Five Crime Families of New York...

The third book is ok for the most part but some of it seems a bit forced like the Morozko things. I wouldn't get rid of the yetis, I would turn it from a caravan dungeon to a large RP encounter which you get to talk to the Yeti king which I thought was more interesting and (believable) than the yeti chieftain falling in love with a Sylph ghost and then becoming possessed... who thinks up this crap anyway...

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