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I know, I know. Big whoop. But for anyone who cares, here is my reason.
User "The Fox" just made a thread asking if/why anyone would bring a firearm to a PFS game. I thought the thread was in poor taste and was not intending to reply until I noticed Liz had locked the thread (as I'm sure this one will be). Right after that, Mike Brock posted that he didn't want anyone to bring a firearm to any PFS event at all, ever. And cited his experience as a law enforcement officer as to why he didn't trust us to act as responsible adults around firearms. I can only assume that a rule so far reaching will make it into the next version of the Guide, and that is why I will no longer associate with official PFS events.
I don't know that I have ever carried my personal firearm to a Pathfinder Society event. I carry my firearm so often, to so many places, that I really couldn't tell you for sure "Yes, I had it on that date." I follow the laws of my state regarding open and concealed carry at all times and the wishes of property owners who make their policies known to me. I have never once been disruptive nor been asked to leave a location, and I certainly have never whipped it out and started playing with it or showing it to anyone. Quite frankly, Mr. Brock, you don't have the authority to tell me where I can and cannot carry my legally owned firearm. But, in the interests of cooperation, I will follow your wishes by no longer hosting or participating in a public PFS event. If you want to come to my home or my privately hosted events and tell me that I can't carry there, I will ask you to call first so that I'm expecting company.
With sincere regret,
Kyle McDonald
Birmingham, AL
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Sooo not saying the word I want to ... instead....
Sit back and breath for a second and ask yourself this...
When have you EVER felt the need to pull your firearm at a PFS event?
if the answer is never... then ask
Why does it matter that Mike has stated his preference? If you aren't going to need it, what is the big deal with leaving it in the truck (I'm assuming you have a huge giant gas guzzling truck at this point).
Obviously there were other things about the campaign bugging you can causing you to lean this way, why was this the tipping point?
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I'm sorry to be of a differing opinion than you, but I have enjoyed the non-partisan aspect of PFS events, and I think the mere presence of a firearm would change the timbre of the room. Although you may have never been explicitly asked to not bring it or leave, others may not feel comfortable stating that; I know I would not feel comfortable with that.
That said I believe the policy lies in the group and if all agree without pressure that firearms are acceptable, that is fair. It may be a difference of locale/culture. If it's in your home, make that explicit that that is accepted and there should be no problem. Since the policy is not in any real rules right now, assuming there will be a blanket policy is- sorry I had to inject the pun- going off at half-cock.
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Mike Brock did not say you are not allowed to do so. He states why, in his experience, doing so is a bad idea and why he personally did not do so.
He also *asks* that
"Please do not bring any form of firearm to a PFS session."
He is not saying you are not allowed. He knows his limits, and he is merely requesting that you not do so.
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Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover
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I live in a country where firearms are illegal. Some persons like hunters and policemen do have firearms, with a lot of restrictions. Nobody is allowed to carry any firearm with her in public, just for fun or protection or anything. I can say my country is really safe and comfortable. Some years ago they even banned bigger knives and a lot of other weapons. Nobody cares, because nobody needs that stuff.
Honestly, the thought of people carrying a gun at a gaming event i am would make me uncomofortable. Even if you are a responsible person, s!$~ happens. And there might be other persons not as responsible. In my eyes, firearms should be banned. Globaly. There are much more important things to produce than instruments that only bring death, pain and suffering.
I think Mike made a good call there. The only weapons you need on a PFS event are your gaming dice and a sharp mind.
Some people really love their guns....
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I live in a country where firearms are illegal. Some persons like hunters and policemen do have firearms, with a lot of restrictions. Nobody is allowed to carry any firearm with her in public, just for fun or protection or anything. I can say my country is really safe and comfortable. Some years ago they even banned bigger knives and a lot of other weapons. Nobody cares, because nobody needs that stuff.
Honestly, the thought of people carrying a gun at a gaming event i am would make me uncomofortable. Even if you are a responsible person, s#~% happens. And there might be other persons not as responsible. In my eyes, firearms should be banned. Globaly. There are much more important things to produce than instruments that only bring death, pain and suffering.
I think Mike made a good call there. The only weapons you need on a PFS event are your gaming dice and a sharp mind.
I can't possibly give this enough favoriting.
Here in the SF Bay Area, if licensed, you can carry openly, but it has to be unloaded, and a cop can stop you to check at any time. Over the past couple of years, guys have been showing off by wearing openly to places like Starbucks, causing people to worry. When asked, they throw a fit about it and make a scene.
Next day, they call all their buddies and twenty or thirty people will show up with guns at Starbucks, just to prove a point. Without fail, whenever a news crew interviews one of these guys, and the reporter asks, "are you trying to intimidate people?" the guy will say "No, but I want people to know they can't mess with me. If they mess with me, there will be trouble."
And this is the big problem I have with people in this country walking around with guns. It's not the guns themselves. I actually feel safer knowing the cops have them. It's that guys like these cannot understand that making sure "nobody messes with them" IS THE SAME THING AS TRYING TO INTIMIDATE PEOPLE. And saying that if somebody messes with you, there will "be trouble," is a threat.
These people wear their guns to show off, to rub the fact in the faces of those who aren't comfortable about it, and to threaten and intimidate others. They call it "liberty," but it's really about challenging and troubling the liberty of others. These are all very immature behaviors that I think, unfortunately, too many gun owners have in common. Worse yet, some of them are just paranoid.
Are there responsible gun owners? Sure. On very, very rare occasions, does somebody protect their home with their gun? Rarely -- VERY RARELY, but yes. Most of the rest of the time, people just act like babies. And hurt themselves. And others. Because they're carrying guns around for all the wrong reasons.
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We had this ex military guy who had some anger and attitude issues bring a gun (and sometimes a knife) with him to games and he'd periodically pull it out and show it to people. He didn't threaten anybody with the gun (there was an incident with the knife), but it was definitely unnerving.
Waving around a gun at a PFS event is irresponsible gun ownership.
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while i personally see no reason to bring firearms anywhere if ur not plannin to use em. i do feel if its ur legal right, its between u and the property owner as to wether u can bring ur firearm onto the property. as for pfs itself if you have permission from the property owner then next step is makin sure the people you play with are ok with it. just remember pfs policy is dont be a jerk, and everyone is welcome to public events.
my biggest concern is that people act like adults and discuss their problems locally as each area has its own laws and policies. the boards are for issues related to pathfinder not local/state/national policy.
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Didn't see that coming. For a company like Paizo to be the most liberal, most inclusive and the most respectful to everyone's beliefs they actually made someone feel like their Constitutional right was infringed upon? Wow.
I lived in AZ for 18 years where open carry is legal. It took a few years to get used to it as I was coming from So.Cal when freeway road-rage shootings was making the news. I personally would feel better that people left their weapons outside of the gaming tables. I've heard stories of gamers throwning things, slapping and kicking others at the table. I'm talking grown men doing this. I don't care if someone believes they are responsible carrying a firearm - leave it at home or locked in the car/truck. Make a gunslinger to compensate for the next 5 hours.
I support Mike and Paizo on this announcement. Everyone is free to play PFS at home or online where the ruling won't effect you.
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There are lots of things that make me more uncomfortable at a table than an appropriately concealed gun does. Smelly, smelly dudes. Unwashed hands after the bathroom break. Someone who drags the stench of cigarettes in from the parking lot. Someone who brings kids with them to the game and then struggles with them the whole night. When's THAT gonna be in the PFS rules?
All Paizo should have to say is "be cool."
If someone at your table is unsettled by your gun, leave it in the car for a few hours. If someone at the table is going to be unsettled by your unshowered body, or your kids, or whatever, be considerate. Just everyone "be cool."
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So here is my take on this. No offense intended okay?
While one has the right to bear a gun and so long as they follow the local laws and customs, why *would* you need to carry one to a PFS Game? I am going to sit at a table with five other people and roll dice. We are not hunting real life food, nor would we be playing at an appropriate location where I can also have target practice. To me, that's impractical.
Yes, you have your rights. I am not here to take your guns or tell you that you cannot game. As a GM, I would ask that if you bring a gun with you to my table it is unloaded and visible per California state laws. But I wouldn't kick you from my table, and if my players were not okay with that, I would make every accommodation to get them seated elsewhere, or if push were to seriously come to shove, completely cancel the game to allow all parties the option to walk away and feel comfortable.
But to me, if one needs to wear a gun around, they are clearly trying to either compensate for something, or that they themselves do not feel comfortable/safe to sit with gamers without the need of bringing a firearm. If either of those two cases are the issue, then perhaps one needs to look at why they are carrying one in the first place.
Quite frankly, if you are leaving over something like this, sure you can do that. Does it sound a little petty to me personally? Sure. But it's not my place to judge. It is a shame you are leaving? Yes. But that is your call to make, and I wish you all the best.
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Global Organized Play Coordinator
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I didn't say they were forbidden and you would be ostracized and thrown out if you do so, unless the owner of an establishment advises he or she does not allow such on their property. After all, in the US, it is your second amendment right to do so.
If people have a concealed carry permit, have a weapon, and don't ever tell or show it to anyone, then there is probably never going to be an issue. However, when instance like people showing up with a weapon and two extra clips, and start flaunting it at a game day, it just isn't a good situation, especially if you have minors at the event. Again, it comes down to common sense and adult responsibility.
I would love for someone to show me exactly where I advised, "I don't trust people to act as a responsible adult with a firearm." Please post a link. Wait, don't waste you time. I never said that. It also wasn't a new rule that was instituted and won't be going in the guide. It was a request because a large majority of people would feel better with an event that doesn't have a weapon than does. Now, sit back and take a deep,breath, and go back and re read what I wrote.
On a side note, every convention I know forbids weapons at their events, including Gen Con, Dragon Con, and Origins, and they do so for good reason. So, if you are going to take exception to me *requesting* you please do not bring weapons to a public event. I assume you also take more exception to conventions with rules that *forbid* you absolutely from bringing weapons to their convention.
Personally, I carry my firearm to PFS events because I am a probation/parole officer wth a number of murderers under my supervision. When I am off duty, I do carry anywhere, including PFS.
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If I'm at a gaming event where someone has felt the need to start waving a gun around I'm probably vacating the premises ASAP; they're clearly not fit to own a firearm if this is happening. Mind you, I'm a avid gun rights supporter and collector of firearms; I believe every US citizen has the right to own and operate firearms so long as it is done in a safe and legal manner. The fact of the matter is that a reasonable, mature gun owner isn't going to be drawing their firearm in a public place unless it's in an act of self defense, so I'd sincerely hope anyone that does bring a weapon with them to PFS games is probably not going to make you aware of it. It's just not smart, legal or not. There are a fair number of people with a knee jerk reaction to anything that might be considered dangerous.
I would hate to see a fellow supporter of the 2nd amendment cease PFSing over something like this, though I know we never have and probably never will play at the same table. Fact is, it's perfectly reasonable for someone to express a desire not to have weapons brought on their property, to an event they are sponsoring, or otherwise to places where a good number of people may not react positively. Now bearing this all in mind, I will concede that I don't feel a responsibly owned and handled concealed firearm ought to be an issue. Still, there will be those that don't like it; it's better to respect their wishes than to have them notice the faint outline of a concealed firearm if you happen to move awkwardly.
This thread reminds me why we can't have nice things...
I support the Right to Bear Arms.
I also support a business or event planner to say "We don't want guns at our event."
Seeing as how PFS isn't even saying this, the OP is... sorry but throwing a hissy fit and giving the sane members of the NRA a bad name (whether he is a member or not, I am sure most are assuming he is a member, rather than assuming he isn't)
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Global Organized Play Coordinator
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Personally, I carry my firearm to PFS events because I am a probation/parole officer wth a number of murderers under my supervision. When I am off duty, I do carry anywhere, including PFS.
And for good reason. I've arrested four murderers myself (and one is currently now out of prison), as well as worked in a jail where I oversaw a unit of 50 Murderers. Rapist, and agg assault inmates. In your position, I assume you also don't flaunt it, take it out and pass it around or show it off to other players at the table. But, there is always the ever present threat that someone who doesn't like you and is a bad person will show up. Just ask my wife about the time we were at a restaurant and one if those former inmates showed up at our table as a waiter. It wasn't a good few minutes. And this is what I was referring to in my initial post on the other thread.
There are reasons to absolutely carry a weapon if you need to, and to do so in the proper manners. When I was a detective, I could have and would been well within my right to do so. However, I didn't want other players and GMs to feel uncomfortable that I had it on me so I made the conscious decision to lock it in the truck of my car upon the arrival at the game day location.
On an interesting side note, I was a police office and detective in a city that *requires* every homeowner or head of household to own a gun (Kennesaw, GA). One of my best friends owns an arsenal that contains at least 14 long rifles and 20 hand guns. I'm the fartherest from what your going to find of someone who opposes gun rights. I am an avid shooter, finished at the top of my class in shooting, and was on the cusp of going to sniper school when I took this job.
Be smart and be respectful people. That is all I'm asking for.
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I see it like this:
Perception is reality.
Does the person across the table from me have a pistol in its shoulder holster under their jacket and a permit to conceal in their back pocket?
No. (Even if they do have a pistol in its shoulder holster under their jacket.)
Does the person across the table from me, after pulling said pistol from its shoulder holster and set it on the table or flash it every chance he gets, have a gun?
Yes.
I don't care if you have a gun on your person. Ever. It's your right to carry it. But I don't have to know about it.
Lemur, it seems you are one of the types who, when they carry it, are the only one who knows you're carrying it. For everyone else, they won't know unless you tell/show them. Based on perception, it is at that moment that you bring a gun to PFS. If you want to carry it concealed, it is your right to do so, and you are not stepping on any toes by doing so. Just don't be one of those guys on the news as mentioned above that show off their gun just because you have a right to do so.
Sior is an Arizona-raised roleplayer who grew up around firearms and is familiar with them. Not as familiar as he would like in recent years, but that can't really be helped. People, on the other hand, is something he will never be familiar with. ;-)
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I can't imagine the day I stop participating in a hobby because of something someone on the internet posted.
can't favorite this enough.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4
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But, there is always the ever present threat that someone who doesn't like you and is a bad person will show up. Just ask my wife about the time we were at a restaurant and one if those former inmates showed up at our table as a waiter. It wasn't a good few minutes. And this is what I was referring to in my initial post on the other thread.
To the OP:
I don't want to speak out of turn, but Mike has an excellent point here. I worked in Corrections for 15 years. I would occasionally meet former prisoners in the community (before I moved). I didn't have a problem, but it is awkward as can be.
A rule like this is not always about you or your behavior. Sometimes it is just about heading off a situation before it becomes a crisis. And folks in Mike's position have to make rules and guidelines for everyone, across the board. One rule for everybody and in this case, deferring to safety.
In Mike's example, if you meet someone you don't get along with, or is genuinely unpleasant, the best course of action is to walk away. Defend yourself by walking away. If a firearm is never present, then there is no chance it ever comes into play.
I mean no disrespect by this, my tone is meant to be pleasant, and I am not against responsible gun ownership. I do think Mr. Brock's decision is wise and it best serves the entire Pathfinder Society community. I hope you'll take a moment, reflect, and reconsider.
(And my apologies to Mike, he doesn't need me to back him up. I just wanted to contribute my thoughts and support)
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In response to the question some have posted of "why would you need to carry a gun to a PFS game," I have actually been mugged and shot returning from a Pathfinder game.*
It sucked, I don't suggest it as an experience for anyone. It turns out my touch AC sucks.
You could be going to Cakeland™, the magical gaming shop where everyone hugs you immediately after a D20 gets rolled, there's still a yawning conceptual gulf between the door of Cakeland™ and your car. It's nice to have something to defend yourself with other than harsh invective (tried it, didn't work) and your good intentions (totally didn't work).
That being said, if you draw attention to your concealed weapon in any situation where you are not obligated to have it visible, you are stupid. Full stop.
Production of a loaded firearm has an implicit connotation that someone is in danger of being perforated. That may be the furthest thing from your mind, but you don't control legitimate concerns from others.
Also, those others may be similarly armed. They may draw on you. The best outcome of this is going to be an immediate cessation of gaming fun. The worst outcome is a gunfight.
Don't be stupid.
* Technically it was a home game, not a PFS game, though I don't think the dude that shot me particularly cared. Mike, I have the case number if you want it.
** Posting this as my gunslinger PFS character for irony points.
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Online
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Your whole country is trying to kill you every day - It makes Russia look like a pansy - I am surprised you guys do not roll in tanks all the time. ;b
Mystic Lemur's post just multiplied my love of living in Australia by a factor of about 1000.
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Yep - happy we don't have to have this debate in Australia.
Imagine telling these guys above that they can't bring a sword to the gaming table either, there would be a riot.
I guess its nice being in a place where we don't feel the need to arm up just to go sit down with your mates and throw dice and have a good time.
The wildlife might kill us, as might the dodgy food at some conventions, but the risk from fellow gamers is about 0.
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Yep - happy we don't have to have this debate in Australia.
Imagine telling these guys above that they can't bring a sword to the gaming table either, there would be a riot.I guess its nice being in a place where we don't feel the need to arm up just to go sit down with your mates and throw dice and have a good time.
The wildlife might kill us, as might the dodgy food at some conventions, but the risk from fellow gamers is about 0.
I would live in fear of being attacked by an egg laying mammal on my way to my FLGS.
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Considering that I use PFS role playing to teach social skills to patients with special needs, the very last thing I need is one of them seeing another player with a gun. I respect your right to own a gun, but I feel that it is more than reasonable to ask that you respect our right to not feel endangered when we play Pathfinder.
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I would live in fear of being attacked by an egg laying mammal on my way to my FLGS.Yep - happy we don't have to have this debate in Australia.
Imagine telling these guys above that they can't bring a sword to the gaming table either, there would be a riot.I guess its nice being in a place where we don't feel the need to arm up just to go sit down with your mates and throw dice and have a good time.
The wildlife might kill us, as might the dodgy food at some conventions, but the risk from fellow gamers is about 0.
I think I'd be more afraid of chickens than echidna or platypi. After all, chickens turn into homicidal maniacs if you accidentally harm them. They even have this really broken SLA called "Summon Chicken Swarm." Even alchemist fires don't work!
Considering that I use PFS role playing to teach social skills to patients with special needs, the very last thing I need is one of them seeing another player with a gun. I respect your right to own a gun, but I feel that it is more than reasonable to ask that you respect our right to not feel endangered when we play Pathfinder.
... This is definitely one of the best uses of PFS play that I've heard tell of. Massive kudos.
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I know I would feel very uncomfortable if I was coordinating a game day and some guy came in and started whipping out his firearm and showing it off.
If you have conceal/carry, that's great. The key word is conceal. If I don't know its there, then I can't feel uncomfortable about it.
But realistically, I'd prefer you didn't even do that at the venues I coordinate, GM or play at.
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Global Organized Play Coordinator
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On a side note, every convention I know forbids weapons at their events, including Gen Con, Dragon Con, and Origins, and they do so for good reason. So, if you are going to take exception to me *requesting* you please do not bring weapons to a public event. I assume you also take more exception to conventions with rules that *forbid* you absolutely from bringing weapons to their convention.
For the original poster, I did some research to save you some time. In regards to cons in your local area:
"Under no circumstances will real, life firearms be allowed."
I've also touched base with someone from Playon Con (in Birmingham, AL) and they have the same policy. No real, life firearms.
I've touched base with someone at CoastCon. Yep, same thing.
I suspect if I contacted Alabama Phoenix Festival, they have a similar rule.
If you are really as upset at my *request* as it reads, you are going to be even more so if you go to local gaming cons because they don't request. They absolutely forbid real firearms of any kind.
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As a fundamental supporter of the second amendment and owner of a firearm, there are also locations you cannot bring a firearm. You cannot bring a firearm to the Super Bowl. Sorry, can't do it. Does that mean you don't go to the Super Bowl if you get a ticket to go?
A lot of places I carry a weapon. We have coyotes and bad people can be anywhere, anytime. But, if the person or place hosting says no guns, then I leave the gun in the car. Same thing I would do if I was going to the Super Bowl.
Of course, I always like to think of why when I hear the "no gun" policy, and make sure there is a real reason besides "I don't like guns." So, here goes my theory. A person at a PFS game might experience a total party kill because of some random roll, a bad GM decision, or worse a stupid decision by a fellow gamer that you don't really know. That fellow gamer thinks it's funny that the entire party died. You've been working on that character for a long time, and this guy is laughing! GUN CHECK.
Same thing for the Super Bowl. Your team loses at the end and the other fans are just making a huge showing of it. You of course are wearing the team jersey of the losing team, and someone says "HEY LOSER YOU'RE NOT GOING TO DISNEY." GUN CHECK.
But if it's the shopping mall, I don't get the "no gun" policy. What exactly confrontational is happening at the shopping mall? Someone grab the last shirt on sale? Please. To me, this "no gun" policy is just anti-gun, so the heck with the rules, I'm carrying.
So, generally speaking, if there is high potential for non-illegal confrontation (name calling, or killing a player's imaginary character), the leave the gun at the door rule I can get. But when the only confrontation is likely to be illegal confrontation (robbing, assault, etc.), I keep my gun next to me thank you very much.
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Why is this even a thing? Seriously, who gets pissed off about a polite request to leave your gun in your car? People confuse me sometimes.
EDIT:
I just looked up the thread that got this dude so worked up. It's some pretty obvious trolling and in severe poor taste. Mr. Brock responds politely but firmly about his feelings on the matter.
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I'm never likely to understand the obsession that some Americans have with guns; I live in a country where not even the police carry them, after all.
But why start a thread on a topic where one thread has already been locked, using the phrase 'I'm sure this one will be [locked]' in your original post, when a simple email to the appropriate Paizo employee would do?
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Any venue owner has every right to request that patrons of their establishment disarm. They don't need a reason. It's on the order of them requesting that you don't smoke, drink, eat food, or disrobe in their establishment- no amount of constitutional, moral, ethical, or philosophical right trumps their preference within the four walls they own.
If you can't deal with that, don't go to there.
I think perspective is key to understanding situations like this. Consider that a person who feels the need to arm themselves has gone through a traumatic experience that you haven't had. You can't possibly imagine what it's like to have your illusions of safety completely shattered. This affects some differently than others, some may feel the need to arm themselves and some can move on without doing so. For those that need to arm themselves to feel safe, consider what you're doing- You are judging a trauma survivor for doing the only thing that provides them with even the smallest illusion of that lost safety. You're asking them to go into a triggering situation and stripping away what little self-empowerment they had.
At the same time, consider being the person that doesn't have the gun. Maybe that person has had that same traumatic experience. Maybe that person now associates that gun, or any gun, as a symbol of that traumatic experience. It would be understandably triggering, perhaps moreso because the trauma victim has no idea what you intend to do with that gun. You're now the person going up to a trauma sufferer with a literal and figurative reminder of their complete lack of safety.
I understand that some people may fall on one side or the other of the firearm issue for arbitrary reasons that may be nonsensical or illogical, they may be personally or politically motivated.
No amount of your political ideology trumps the moral consequences of attacking someone's mental well-being, no matter which side of the issue you or the other person stands.
That request that the store owner or a player might make is only that much- a request, a piece of paper, a sign in the door. If someone is bugnuts crazy enough to draw a killing implement over a role-playing game, do you really think a sign on the door is going to stop them?
No. It won't. All a person can do is to have a basic regard for your fellow humans and their mental well-being.
In short, simple human decency tempered by perspective is the only solution.
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Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover
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This obsession with guns and violence does not really fit my picture of mental well being.
Also, traumatized person carrying weapons is something that really puts me off. There is something inherently wrong with that argumentation, because if that trauma get´s triggered by some stress, their trigger finger might go wild. Best they also are on medication, so their perception and judgement of situations is 100% accurate for sure.
How about putting all that money going into "defense" into a proper healthcare system, better education and work programms instead?
Less guns, less incidents, less traumatized people.
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Less guns, less incidents, less traumatized people.
While accurate (probably), you will have some violent opposition from many Americans. It's been over a century, but we really are still the wild West, nothing more than cowboys. We grew up with six-guns at our hips, so it's hard to think about our nation coming of age and putting aside the wild youth that made it what it is today.
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Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover
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Suggesting that a person who has suffered trauma and deals with PTSD as a result of that is more prone to violence and needs to be chemically altered is extremely ableist and false.
That´s not what i said.
Please read my post carefully and don´t put things in there that aren´t.