PFS has just lost me as a supporter


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Silver Crusade

Mystic Lemur,

I am sorry that my thread has caused you to feel this way.

I would like to comment on my intention behind the thread, because I tried very hard to frame it in such a way as to not be in poor taste or trolling. Apparently, I failed.

I live in an open carry state, and play at a local game store every Friday. Recently, a member of the community began exercising his right to open carry while attending the games. He had previously asked and received permission from the store owner.

Through a third party, friendly to both of us, I told him that several people at the game are uncomfortable with him bringing a handgun to the game. (And there are several of us who feel this way.)

As background, I am not anti-gun in the least. I do not currently own guns, because I don't feel like I have any use for them, but I grew up in a house with guns (rifles, shotguns, and handguns). My family all still own guns, many in fact. My close friends have guns. I simply felt that they are inappropriate at the gaming table, especially in a lodge that has a history of heated emotions. I hate to speak for other people, but I know that one of the other people who felt uncomfortable with guns at the table is also a gun owner. He flat-out said that he won't GM for anyone bringing a gun to the table.

So, this individual was told that his handgun was making people uncomfortable at the game. His response was, "well, then they should talk to me about it."

Personally, I am uncomfortable confronting an armed stranger about their gun—at least while I am also unarmed. That is why I asked our mutual friend to inform him that people felt that way.

That brings me to why I posted in the forums here. My intent was to find out if my feelings are out of line with those of the community. I knew this would be a hot button issue. I tried very hard to phrase my post in as non-inflammatory way as possible. Maybe I could have done better, but I did the best I could. If the community had told me that I was being a jerk for asking someone to not bring a gun to the table, I would have either walked away from PFS, or bought a handgun myself. Neither seems like the best solution. Which is why I came here looking for insight.

Again, I'm sorry that this caused such a stir for everyone. Try to imagine what we are going through here over all of this. Please don't let our local problem become your problem just because I was asking for help. Thank you.

Sczarni

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Benjamin Falk wrote:
This obsession with guns and violence does not really fit my picture of mental well being.

Mislabeling of "obsession."

Quote:
Also, traumatized person carrying weapons is something that really puts me off.

Othering of traumatized individuals. Ableist.

Quote:
There is something inherently wrong with that argumentation, because if that trauma get´s triggered by some stress, their trigger finger might go wild.

Stigmatization of traumatized individuals. Suggestion that they are prone to violence. Ableism +1.

Quote:
Best they also are on medication, so their perception and judgement of situations is 100% accurate for sure.

Implication that traumatized individuals need to be chemically altered. Ableism 3-hit combo.

Quote:

How about putting all that money going into "defense" into a proper healthcare system, better education and work programms instead?

Less guns, less incidents, less traumatized people.

I agree wholeheartedly. Part of that is divesting ourselves of ableist stigmatization of people who have suffered trauma as violent, dangerous loonies. That is a macro solution. Individual persons cannot and should not be expected to perform macro solutions on their own. Micro solutions, which are attainable by individuals, involve having a basic level understanding of their situation.

Here's an excellent article on being an ally for people who suffer from PTSD: http://www.autistichoya.com/2013/08/how-to-be-ally-for-people-with-ptsd.htm l

Please note that I'm not judging you as a person. They don't teach awareness in schools, another systemic problem of our treatment of mental health as a society. I'm calling out your statements because you're clearly an intelligent person, and I believe that you are not a person who genuinely wants to stigmatize persons with PTSD.

Lantern Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

@Benjamin Falk -

Medication =/= Accurate Perception. Chemical treatment is not a failsafe measure by any stretch of the imagination. The majority of publicized shooting incidents in the US over the last few years have involved individuals on medications, such as antidepressants. Medication did little to ensure their 100% accurate perceptions and reasonable response to whatever traumatic events triggered or contributed to their actions.

I agree that a robust medical/mental health system would be a vast improvement, but it's not the absolute, be-all, end-all answer.

A firearms ban is not a thing I could ever support, however. Call me a nut, but I simply do not trust our endlessly benevolent government (who never abuses their power and always thinks of the well-being of the people first) to be the only folks carrying around firearms.

*EDIT*
And Brandon Cecil went and ninja'd me. I agree on all points.

Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover aka Hayato Ken

Well, internets and irony. I have to point out that that you are really reading wrong what i said. Perhaps i could have said it in a better way.

I´m far away from stigmatisizing any persons.
Only i think guns are a problem, not a solution.
And also they obviously create an atmosphere of fear, which in return produces more violence.

Edit: Allright, even though i´m speaking english here, it´s not my first language and i seem to use i differently sometimes than some here.
My point is that medication and weapons are a bad combination.
Also i don´t think traumatized people are violent. I do think they might feel threatened in different situations than others and also react differently. That´s not stigmatizing or negative.
A good therapy is probably way better than medication, but costs more.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 Venture-Captain aka TwilightKnight

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*sigh*
I cannot believe that this is even an issue

Silver Crusade

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I really do not want a gun at any table I play at. There is no reason to take a weapon to a PFS game. If I knew a player had a gun at a table I would not play there as I would not feel safe. There are a lot of points that can be made on both sides of this debate but if I don’t feel safe I won’t have fun. If I am not having fun I don’t want to be there.

A police officer with a gun is fine with me. They have a reason to carry a gun.


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People...it really comes down to local law ordinances. Here in Minnesota a person can legally concealed carry with a permit...and businesses have the right to post no firearm allowed signs which the Concealed Carry bearer must abide by. 99% of the time you will not even know if someone has a firearm and unless the owner has posted a no firearms notice it is their right to do so. Now if I saw someone with a firearm that was poorly concealed I would as an aside comment to them ask that they do a better job concealing it....just to keep people from overreacting...but that's just me. I own several firearms, avid shooter and reloader, ex military...guns are just a tool, people are dangerous...hell even several dozen 4 siders scattered on the floor is dangerous if you are barefooted.


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This is why I'm always hesitant to tell people I'm a gun rights supporter, too many of us are far too attached to their guns and overreact whenever it's even hinted they might not be appreciated anywhere and everywhere. Makes us look bad.

As an aside, I don't care if someone brings a gun to an event, as long as they're responsible about it as described above.

Silver Crusade

Outlier opinion follows. Three-part preface: I have mental health issues, I was part of a mass shooting event, and I've had a cop pull a gun on me because of some crap.

I don't want guns at any table I'm ever at. They make me uncomfortable and I would prefer if all of them magically disappeared. That won't happen. I also don't really care if you're a cop or whatever. Cops and flip out and kill people just as easily as anybody else. Nobody's 100% rational 100% of the time and if guns are involved, bad times ensue.

So yeah.

Sovereign Court

Unklbuck wrote:
guns are just a tool

I disagree. A knife (kitchen cutlery, scalpel, box cutter, etc.) is a tool. They have purposes that are not violent. Daggers and swords are weapons. Both are blades, but their purposes are entirely different. Guns are weapons, meant to kill, whether it be animal or enemy. This does not make them dangerous, but it does classify them as weaponry. You are correct, people are more dangerous than the weapons they use or the tools they misuse. However, guns. Are. Weapons. As such they have a stigma that makes people uneasy when they are brought into an equation that they should not be included in.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Starfinder Superscriber
Michael Brock wrote:
I was a police office and detective in a city that *requires* every homeowner or head of household to own a gun (Kennesaw, GA).

Woah.... What was the penalty for non-compliance?

Shadow Lodge

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Well, I pride myself on being able to see issues from the "other side" so with that in mind I've waited a while before I replied. There are a lot of comments I'd like to discuss in more depth, but I know that discussion doesn't really belong in the PFS section. The posters who thought I needed to calm down, or wanted to make sure that I wasn't offended by their replies were particularly amusing. Maybe we can revisit the issue on the General boards?

As for the original issue, on the advice of PFCBG and Mike himself, I've taken another look at Mike's post to see if there wasn't something else that prompted my reaction. First of all, Mike, you clearly said

Please do not bring any form of firearm to a PFS session.

You may not have meant that as a Ruling from the Global Organized Play Coordinator, but that's what you are. Your word is law as far as PFS is concerned. Even when you think you're posting your own opinion, the weight of your position makes people take your opinion as a ruling. It's not much of a stretch to imagine someone pointing to your post at saying "Mike said so." even if that wasn't your intention. But is that what provoked such a strong reaction from me? If I really stop and thing about it, no.

Over the last few years, you've done an amazing job as Campaign Coordinator. You've grown PFS into something huge, something that I was thrilled to be a part of. I never really "got" organized play until I was introduced to PFS, and it's been a pleasure to help my local VC grow his events while also getting my home group involved, many of whom were brand new to tabletop gaming. But lately you've made some rulings that seemed to me to be knee-jerk, where other issues that could have been resolved quickly were left to linger. As Sior mentioned, perception is reality, and my perception of some of your recent decisions left a sour taste in my mouth that apparently clouded my understanding of your post. To add to that, the fact that you posted in a closed thread struck me as someone who "had to have the last word." Looking back, I'm certain that is not what was intended, but that is what I read into it at the time.

To add to the issue, it seems I'm not immune to stereotyping. Speaking quickly of stereotypes, I actually own a light pick-up that gets a respectable 20mpg. I have a college degree, and still have all my teeth. ;) Sadly, it's been my experience when it comes to the private ownership of firearms, that law enforcement officers like to cite their experience and training as a reason that only they should carry. I brought the weight of my prior experiences and unfairly applied a stereotype to Mike based on his former profession. When I responded to him, I was really responding to every police officer I have ever seen post an unfavorable opinion of gun owners. It caused me to read far more into his words and tone than what was actually there. For that alone, I owe Mike an apology. And speaking of apologies, as an aside to The Fox, I apologize for saying that your thread was in poor taste. I had no right to make assumptions about your intentions. After reading your post, I intend to send you a message regarding your local issues. If you don't hear from me soon, hold me to it.

So, after taking a step back and recognizing the faults in my original post, I'm left with the core of my post. I want to emphasize that I've never made an issue out of my firearm at a PFS event. When I carry to a game session, it's because I was already carrying. I don't think to myself "I'm going to roll some dice, better strap up." I agree that would be ridiculous. As Brandon Cecil points out, bad things happen to good people, and they tend to happen when least expected. I don't carry because I think the people I game with are "out to get me", I carry because I can't know what will happen to me from the time I leave my house in the morning to when I get back. If I was able to predict when and where I would need a gun, I wouldn't need one at all. I just wouldn't go to that place at that time.

As I said before, I always follow the laws of my state, and the policies of the owners/managers of the properties I visit. Thank you, Mike, for trying to save me the trouble of gathering the policies of the cons near me. However, I was already aware. I make a point to find out those sorts of things before I commit to going somewhere so that I can make accommodations. For instance, if I were to ever fly out for PaizoCon I would find out first the laws of Washington, including whether they reciprocate Alabama's permits (for the record, they don't), whether they offer a non-resident permit (they do), if Seattle has any more stringent restrictions, if they are allowed at PaizoCon (they're not), at the hotel I would be staying at (if not, I would pick a different hotel). That is all part of being a responsible adult, much less a gun owner. If a store owner, or the game day coordinator wants to allow or disallow firearms at their store/event then that should be their independently reached decision. As ShakaUVM rightly pointed out, this has nothing to do with playing Pathfinder. I just object to the idea of this going from being one person's opinion, to being a requirement of PFS play. "I'm sorry, we can't sanction your event because you didn't include the firearm disclaimer." It sounds silly, unless you've seen that sort of thing happen. Then you learn to expect it.

In conclusion, I've decided that my first instinct was right. I probably should take a break from PFS public play. I've been getting unduly frustrated about things that don't really matter, and I've lost some of the drive that I originally had. Maybe some time away from the boards will do me some good. :)

Dark Archive

I really hope this thread doesn't degenerate into a staging ground for political posturing and gun debate.

Anywho, I can understand why someone might be nervous about open carry of a firearm in a game store. You don't really know the person; all you know is that they've got a gun at the table with them. The store owner has apparently given their blessing for it, but uh... still kind of a dick move to keep bringing it if you know you're kinda freaking people out. Even being only slightly freaked out can lead to unfortunate and poorly thought out behaviors.

My go-to weapons for home defense consist of a Ruger SR-556 and a Mossberg 500 shotgun; I clearly love firearms. ... Still wouldn't open carry my sidearm in a small venue like a game store if it was proving to be unsettling for people. That's just begging for some kind of incident to occur. Responsibly carrying a concealed weapon (and KEEPING it concealed) with proper authorization I could see--what they don't know won't upset them. The fact of the matter is that something bad probably won't happen as a result of openly carrying a firearm in a game store (again, with proper authorization). .... But something could still happen. You don't know if there's someone in there with a severe case of PTSD, a guy with a severe irrational fear of guns, or just someone that's got a few screws loose and may start a ruckus. Best to err on the side of caution.

Edit in response to Mystic Lemur's post popping up suddenly: Hope to see you haunting the boards again in the future, Mystic Lemur.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Global Organized Play Coordinator

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Mystic Lemur wrote:
But lately you've made some rulings that seemed to me to be knee-jerk, where other issues that could have been resolved quickly were left to linger. As Sior mentioned, perception is reality, and my perception of some of your recent decisions left a sour taste in my mouth that apparently clouded my understanding of your post. To add to that, the fact that you posted in a closed thread struck me as someone who "had to have the last word." Looking back, I'm certain that is not what was intended, but that is what I read into it at the time.

Two points and I'm going to let this go.

1) I don't make knee jerk reactions. If it looks like one, or I made a quick reply, chances are the VOs, John, and I have *already* been discussing the issue in depth and a proper adjudication of the situation has already been decided on by a consensus of campaign leadership, which the VOs are very much a part of, and a very important one at that. Almost every ruling made is discussed heavily with VOs on the VC message board, as well as over email, Skype, PM, etc... Just because you don't see the discussions doesn't mean they don't happen. I take feedback from VOs all over the world, weigh what their opinions are as they have a fairly good handle on what is best for their specific regions, and then I chat with John about it. Occasionally, I will reach out to active members of the community that are not VOs (Chris Mortika, Dragnmoon, Painlord, Kyle Baird, Doug Miles, just to name a few), just to get a different opinion outside of Paizo staff and VOs.

Once I have all input, I make a ruling based on what is best for PFS across the world, not just for one region. Sometimes that discussion takes a few hours. Other times it takes a month or more. But I do take as many opinions from as many regions as possible into just about every decision made. If you care to PM what decisions you consider knee jerk reactions, it would be appreciated and I can address those specifically, as well as the reasons the decisions where made, and why it was chosen over the other options that VOs represented through their input.

2) I was asked by the company to respond to the post after it was locked because I probably have the most experience with this type of situation. So, I responded as was requested.

Grand Lodge

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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Nerf guns are cool, right?

RIGHT?

Sovereign Court

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Yes, but no price guns. Those things spit out evil...

Scarab Sages

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The Fox wrote:

Mystic Lemur,

I am sorry that my thread has caused you to feel this way.

I would like to comment on my intention behind the thread, because I tried very hard to frame it in such a way as to not be in poor taste or trolling. Apparently, I failed.

I live in an open carry state, and play at a local game store every Friday. Recently, a member of the community began exercising his right to open carry while attending the games. He had previously asked and received permission from the store owner.

Through a third party, friendly to both of us, I told him that several people at the game are uncomfortable with him bringing a handgun to the game. (And there are several of us who feel this way.)

As background, I am not anti-gun in the least. I do not currently own guns, because I don't feel like I have any use for them, but I grew up in a house with guns (rifles, shotguns, and handguns). My family all still own guns, many in fact. My close friends have guns. I simply felt that they are inappropriate at the gaming table, especially in a lodge that has a history of heated emotions. I hate to speak for other people, but I know that one of the other people who felt uncomfortable with guns at the table is also a gun owner. He flat-out said that he won't GM for anyone bringing a gun to the table.

So, this individual was told that his handgun was making people uncomfortable at the game. His response was, "well, then they should talk to me about it."

Personally, I am uncomfortable confronting an armed stranger about their gun—at least while I am also unarmed. That is why I asked our mutual friend to inform him that people felt that way.

That brings me to why I posted in the forums here. My intent was to find out if my feelings are out of line with those of the community. I knew this would be a hot button issue. I tried very hard to phrase my post in as non-inflammatory way as possible. Maybe I could have done better, but I did the best I could. If the community had told me that I was being a jerk for...

This thread is getting out of hand quickly. We are supposed to be accepting of everyone, and welcoming to all. You should not be singled out for your opinion, and we should all respect your opinion. Likewise, the firearm owner, so long as they are obeying all applicable state laws, and are behaving in a polite, respectful, and welcoming manner, should not be singled out, and we should respect their opinion as well.

There are only two parties invoked here: the customers of the store and the proprietor or designated manager of the store. Note that both the parties who may feel uncomfortable and the parties carrying firearms are both customers, of both the store and of paizo products.

I believe that the most effective and considerate way to solve any conflict is to do so at the lowest level possible. Going through a third party, who is wholly uninvolved is not the most effective way to handle this issue, and asking on an Internet forum is an especially poor idea, in my opinion. To further complicate the matter, you have indicated that you knew in advance that this would be a hot-button issue.

So I can only suggest that you speak to the person directly. Perhaps you can arrange to speak with them in a location that you feel comfortable in and request that they meet with you unarmed?

3/5

For the record, I know a guy who back in the day (1st edition) literally sold his books and has never played an rpg again after another player pulled a knife on him because he blamed him for his character dying. He and another guy there had to wrestle him to the ground and knock him out. I hate to think what would have happened had that guy had a gun.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Benjamin Falk wrote:
This obsession with guns and violence does not really fit my picture of mental well being.

I found this statement, in a PFS thread, amusing.

I mean, every scenario has, what, at least 3 violent encounters?

Sovereign Court

Slightly off topic, but I was once in a group that gamed in a local store. One night a guy kibitzed on the session. Seemed innocent enough. He ended up leaving after about an hour. Little while later, the cops came by, saying this bloke had called them saying we had threatened his life.

Truth of the matter was it was one player saying it in-character to a captured baddy. To make matters worse, each of us had a blade of some form or another on our persons. Nothing more than pocket knives and tac folders, but still. Honestly I think it was the shop keeper vouching for us and a critical success Charisma roll that kept us out of hot water.
Point being that even having it on your person causes tension for those around you.

So like I said before, if you have it concealed and you're the only one who knows it, fine and dandy. You feel safe, we feel safe, we're all good. But it just takes one unstable person who may not even be at the table to see a blade or a gun and freak the frack out.


i have lots of fun in a gaming place with a safe friendly welcoming atmosphere, i go to those places because the make my day a little better and i enjoy the game and the people there. i try not to be a jerk, i give benefit of the doubt if anyone there appears to be making jerk choices. if i saw folks making real life choices based on fear, that would put a damper on the fun for me. if they could make that place far more dangerous then i would find a better place to be. if you have a gun because you are afraid of people with guns, then you are welcome at an event, but tune in to the mood of the group and whether you cause it to dwindle by bringing fear with you.

what could you do that would meet the needs of people in healthy ways so there are far more rare occurrences of bad guys in your society? have you done research or reading to see if having a gun increases or decreases your safety or security. inform your brain with facts and then let that filtre through your conscience, then choose, and in choosing you will be comfortable and articulate in your choice, cool and still in yoiur own mind and spirit.

Liberty's Edge 4/5

Like most people here, I take guns seriously. If someone pulls out a gun in public, (pfs game or otherwise)places it on the table, passes it around, or even talks about using it, (joking or not) get away from that person and notify law enforcement. I had an angry co-worker threaten to shoot everyone. Within 10 minutes he was being escorted out of the building by the police. 99.9% of the people who play PFS are normal decent players but if you have a firearm, just keep it to yourself.

Silver Crusade

For the record, I have guns yet I have never had the urge to bring one to a game and there is no way I'm leaving my gun in my car at a game.

Dark Archive

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This post pretty much sums up how I view pro gun people. "Somebody told me they would prefer I don't take my firearms inside with me so I will no longer be supporting them because this is murrica and what not"

Dark Archive

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Gorman wrote:
This post pretty much sums up how I view pro gun people. "Somebody told me they would prefer I don't take my firearms inside with me so I will no longer be supporting them because this is murrica and what not"

I hope somebody answers that phone because I %&#*ing called it.

Liberty's Edge

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If that was a PFS ruling I would have to go with the OP.

I have never carried to a table nor have I had any inclination to do so but I have seen it done and not been offended or threatened. You will never need to fear a law abiding citizen. Any organization that ostracizes members for expressing their legal rights does not need me.

Silver Crusade

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gunslingeraz wrote:

If that was a PFS ruling I would have to go with the OP.

I have never carried to a table nor have I had any inclination to do so but I have seen it done and not been offended or threatened. You will never need to fear a law abiding citizen. Any organization that ostracizes members for expressing their legal rights does not need me.

You haven't had a previously law-abiding citizen bring a gun and shoot up a room full of people you know.

Everybody's sane and fine and rational until they're not.

Shadow Lodge

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Michael Brock wrote:
Two points and I'm going to let this go.

I appreciate the reply, and the confirmation of what I had already figured out on my own. As I said, my gut reaction wasn't rational and I've had a chance to think things through. Keep doing the good work you've been doing and don't let posts like mine discourage you. :)


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Vheod wrote:
99.9% of the people who play PFS are normal decent players

Data please. There has to be more than 50 abnormal non-decent players out there. :-)


Does it count if you're decently abnormal?

Not that I'm asking for any particular reason. Ahem.

Dark Archive

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What about abnormally decent?

Shadow Lodge

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Benjamin Falk wrote:


How about putting all that money going into "defense" into a proper healthcare system, better education and work programms instead?
Less guns, less incidents, less traumatized people.

Its a bit too late for that. When federally and internationally confiscated weapons are found again on the streets within days or weeks, trying to make firearms illegal will only remove those firearms that where purchased legally, and not touch all the illegal ones. Basically all but the criminals would be loosing guns.

The Exchange

I know of one game store in detroit that i will not return to unarmed. Bullethole through the window from violence outside the store is not a good sign

The Exchange

|dvh| wrote:
gunslingeraz wrote:

If that was a PFS ruling I would have to go with the OP.

I have never carried to a table nor have I had any inclination to do so but I have seen it done and not been offended or threatened. You will never need to fear a law abiding citizen. Any organization that ostracizes members for expressing their legal rights does not need me.

You haven't had a previously law-abiding citizen bring a gun and shoot up a room full of people you know.

Everybody's sane and fine and rational until they're not.

And im guessing you have never seen an armed man protect his family.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

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Andrew R wrote:
And im guessing you have never seen an armed man protect his family.

Just as I've never seen a unicorn.

Silver Crusade

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All that can be said on the matter has been said. Please, close the thread before it turns into a gun debate flamestorm. We don't need that, and it certainly is not PFS related.

5/5 5/55/5

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Andrew R wrote:
I know of one game store in detroit that i will not return to unarmed. Bullethole through the window from violence outside the store is not a good sign

If it is seriously as concerning as you say, why would you go back AT ALL, armed or otherwise?

A PFS game is not worth getting shot over, so if it was as serious as all that and you anticipated trouble wouldn't the sensible thing be to just not go there rather than chance random violence to which you are relying on the worst possible solution to from a risk management standpoint.


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Living in Denmark, this thread has taken me completely by surprise. After the initial disbelief, I now think of this as a very interesting window into aspects of a culture / society so radically different from my own, that it's sometimes really hard to fathom, but quite nice to be reminded of.

I'm VERY glad, that this will never ever be an issue in Denmark or any other Nordic country I might by chance play Pathfinder in.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Global Organized Play Coordinator

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Ok folks. This discussion has run its course. Thanks for the feedback, input, and the mostly civil conversation. Thread is now locked.

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