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Continuing the discussion of the Planar Binding spells. This is designed for a diabolist character (most of this will end up in my Guide to the Diabolist), but should be of interest to anyone who uses Planar Binding regularly. Part 1 (on Lesser Planar Binding) can be found here.
Planar Binding
This is where the "Don't Summon Anything with CR Equal To or Over Your Level" rule really kicks in. A wizard or witch can start casting this at 11th level, but the most powerful monsters on this list should be avoided for another level or two. There's no equivalent to the Bearded Devil on this list -- that is, there's not a single creature that's obviously your go-to across several levels, though the ceustodaeomon comes close. Instead, there are a bunch of specialized tools. Planar Binding is a spell that rewards doing your homework.
Note that you can use this spell to call creatures totalling up to 12 HD, so if you need a bunch of low level mooks you can conjure up two barbazus, half a dozen imps, etc.
Ceustodaemon* [CR 6, SR 0, Will +8, Cha 15] -- Go and look at the ceustodaemon's monster description. What, too busy? Okay, here's the good bit: "When brought to another plane with a [planar binding spell], ceustodaemons take a –5 penalty on the initial Will save and on their Charisma check to refuse service. Ceustodaemons also take a –5 penalty on saves against binding, planar binding, and other spells designed to bind a creature to a particular plane as long as the daemon is commanded to serve as a guardian for a single area or small complex." So there you go... for your purposes, the ceustodaemon has Will +3 and a Cha around 4 or so. And, oh yes, no SR. It's a CR 6 creature that's easier to summon and bind than an imp. These guys are going to be your melee shock troops for a level or two, and even at higher levels you'll occasionally be calling one up to mind the store while you're out of town. Don't forget to read the full flavor text, though: "Ceustodaemons find themselves on the Material Plane more often than any other daemon, as they are easily pressured into service—many call these creatures “guardian daemons” as a result. Yet in the back of their wicked minds, ceustodaemons always think about escaping their bonds and ripping to shreds the ones who summoned them."
Erinyes [CR 6, SR 19, Will +7, Cha 21] -- With flight and her +1 flaming long bow and feats, the erinyes is one of the few devils built for dishing out long-range hurt. Call up a couple of these angry ladies to provide air cover on an overland trek or other outdoors adventure. Note that you can get a +2 on your charisma check relatively cheaply (200 gp a pop) by giving them a holy symbol or some nice religious art to destroy.
Kyton* (Chain Devil) [CR 6, SR 17, Will +3, Cha 12] -- Despite the name, kytons are not true devils; mechanically, they don't have the "devil" subtype. So your Infernal Charisma won't work on them. Slightly more powerful in melee than the magaav or ceustodaemon, but still probably not worth the trouble unless you happen to have some very specific task involving sadism and lots and lots of chains. (Which, given your chosen career path, is certainly possible.)
Magaav (Greater Host Devil) [CR 6, SR 17, Will +3, Cha 11] -- The Magaav is only just a bit more powerful than the Barbazu. (They do about the same amount of damage, but the Magaav can fly and has a better AC.) Probably not worth the higher level spell, especially since the ceustodaemon is about as powerful and much easier to call and bind.
Huge Fire Elemental* [CR 7, SR 0, Will +5, Cha 11] -- "Burn everything. Leave no witnesses." Foul-tempered and not too bright, call this guy up when you just want to burn it all down.
Levaloch (Warmonger Devil) [CR 7, SR 12, Will +5, Cha 15] -- The Levaloch is a strange construct-devil hybrid, but it does have the devil subtype so you can use Infernal Charisma. It's a pure combat brute with no SLAs at all, and its presence gives +1 on attacks and AC to adjacent devils. When you're tired of pushing ceustodaemons around, this guy is probably your next step up.
Shadow Demon* [CR 7, SR 17, Will +7, Cha 19] -- You call up a shadow demon when you want to have something possessed by a demon. It's a challenging summons for a creature of its CR (remember, you don't get Infernal Charisma against it), but you can get +2 by offering it "the shell of a beautiful person to wear". Demons are chaotic and shadow demons are pretty much creatures of pure jealous malice, so don't count on exercising fine-tuned or lasting control.
Succubus* [CR 7, SR 18, Will +10, Cha 27] -- No no no. Bad idea. Look at that Will save. Now look at that Charisma... the number, look at the number. Succubi are incredibly hard to call and bind for a creature of their CR. They're also very smart and very chaotic. Yes, if you can bind her she has all sorts of incredible SLAs, and you can use her to wreak havoc in various interesting ways. They can also be used by a clever DM to mess with you very, very easily. It's just not worth the risk. I strongly suggest you find yourself a girlfriend and conjure something that won't end up laughing its way back to the Abyss.
Nessian Hell Hound* [CR 9, SR 0, Will +5, Cha 6] -- There's nothing complicated about the Nessian Hell Hound. It's a fire-breathing wolf the size of a horse. No SLAs, no teleportation -- this is a totally straightforward combat monster. And for a creature of its CR, it's ridiculously easy to call and bind. The only drawback is that they have Int 4, meaning you can only give them simple and clear commands. If you think tactical complexity is going to be needed, look somewhere else. But if all you need is a pack of brutes you can unleash to breath fire and rip stuff up, these guys are solid.
Night Hag* [CR 9, SR 24, Will +11, Cha 17] -- There are only three reasons to call up a night hag. One is to discuss trading in soul gems -- say, if you've just successfully ambushed a Souldrinker and are trying to fence his hoard. The second would be sic her on someone to Dream Haunt them to death. And the third is because you're planning to murder someone and want to cast Soul Bind -- normally a 9th level spell. It won't be easy: the hag's crazy high SR makes her hard to bind, and you don't get your Infernal Charisma either. Also, a night hag is exactly the sort of creature that will carry a grudge forever and look to get revenge. Not that any of these other creatures are full of sweet forgiveness, but the night hag is a creepy, malevolent loner who's optimized for sneaking and murder. So, don't mess with the night hag unless you have some really compelling reason, or are confident you can kill the hag fast before she can go ethereal and escape.
Osyluth (Bone Devil) [CR 9, SR 20, Will +7, Cha 18] -- The osyluth is a strange duck. It's slightly underpowered in melee for its CR. Its mix of SLAs goes back to first edition... which means, they don't make a lot of sense. It probably works best as an ambush specialist, using invisibility and major image to line up on its victim. It does have Dimensional Anchor as a SLA, which means it's useful to have around if you're fighting things that like to teleport (like, say, other outsiders).
Vrock* [CR 9, SR 20, Will +6, Cha 16] -- The vrock is an odd choice, but it has its points. It's a combat brute, noticeably more powerful in melee than the osyluth. If you summon more than one, you can get some serious Dance of Ruin action going. And it's relatively easy to get that +2 Cha bonus against it -- "The vrock loves to despoil and befoul things of great beauty. Artwork worth at least 250 gp or a living, intelligent creature to destroy are equally desirable sacrifices." Call up a vrock when you want to inflict swift destruction on masses of low or middle-level enemies, or kill an army. Just don't let the other diabolists see you do it, because vrocks are disgusting and gross.
Zelekhut Inevitable* [CR 9, SR 20, Will +10, Cha 17] -- The zelekhut is another good choice for melee; it does less raw damage than the vrocke, but has more useful SLAs. Unfortunately, it's RAW that inevitables can simply refuse to serve if ordered to do things against their nature. (They're the only outsiders with this option, thank goodness.) So you only want to call up a zelekhut if you're doing something that serves the cause of Law -- and if your party goes off message and starts acting chaotically, be prepared for the creature to simply shut down. Ideally, you'd want to summon one or more of these guys for going after someone who is trying to escape punishment, since that's their particular area of expertise. This could be a perfect fit for some particular adventures -- "The Whispering Tyrant was justly imprisoned. Now his minions seek to end his punishment by freeing him. We work to stop them, that his lawful punishment may continue forever." -- but probably not for most "kill the monsters and take their stuff" type dungeons.
Phistophilus (Contract Devil) [CR 10. SR 21, Will +16, Cha 22] -- Mechanically, the phistophilus' high Will save makes it hard to call up. However, once you get it, you have a potentially very interesting encounter. The phistophilus is a surprisingly competent melee fighter, but that's probably not what you want it for. No, you call up a phistophilus to talk about making deals. You already have your own arrangement with Hell, so unless you desperately need three wishes, you probably don't want to sign an infernal contract. But there's no reason you can't act as a go-between or broker, connecting the contract devil to mortals who are greedy or foolish enough to accept a deal. Obviously, if this works out, you'd be within your rights to negotiate a reasonable commission... The phistophilus also gives you a rare opportunity to deal with a devil who is intelligent, well connected, and at least potentially friendly. If you want to work out some sort of special deal with Hell, summoning one of these guys is a good starting point.
Cauchemar* (Nightmare) [CR 11, SR 0, Will +7, Cha 12] -- See the entry on the nightmare, because this is just a bigger, meaner nightmare. (In fact, it's a Huge size creature. Make sure your circle is big enough.) Very easy to summon and bind for a creature of its CR.
Hamatula (Barbed Devil) [CR 11, SR 22, Will +8, Cha 18] -- At first glance the hamatula looks like the high-level version of the bearded devil: a tough combat fighter, and with a bunch of useful (if somewhat random) SLAs. Unfortunately, we're getting up to the levels where devils have distinct personalities and agendas, and the hamatula is kind of a jerk even by the standards of Hell. "Hamatulas despise being summoned away from their duties in Hell for any reason. A devil summoner who offers a hamatula rare treasures and exotic gems valued at more than 2,000 gp gains a +2 bonus on all Charisma checks made to compel the devil to service, but only if the task takes less than 24 hours to complete. Those who try to compel hamatulas to longer terms of service, whatever the service might be, take a -2 penalty on their charisma checks." Well la dee dah. The hamatula is a special snowflake. If you have the firepower to enforce your will upon it, it makes a fine bodyguard, but given the flavor text your DM would be justified in making it a grudge-holding long-term enemy if you keep it away from Hell for more than a day.
Akhana Aeon* [CR 12, SR 23, Will +14, Cha 18] -- It's RAW that the neutral Aeons are difficult to understand or control (though the flavor text doesn't explain how that works mechanically). Still, the Akhana makes this list for one reason: it can cast Raise Dead and Restoration. So if you have a dead PC and no 9th+ level cleric on hand, you conjure up one of these guys. Note that what one Aeon knows, every Aeon knows, so think twice before you bully, abuse or kill a conjured Aeon. It's not clear that the guardians of neutrality would hold grudges, but on the other hand it's not clear that they wouldn't.
Kolyarut Inevitable* [CR 12, SR 23, Will +11, Cha 16] -- High SR and Will make this a tough summons, and the kolyarut, like the zelekhut, can shut itself down if ordered to act against its nature. But if you have an adventure goal that fits with the particular obsessions of the kolyarut -- punishing oath-breakers and seeing that contracts are kept -- then this becomes a very attractive option. "The Queen swore before the gods to protect and serve the city, but instead she has unleashed pestilence and monsters upon her blameless people!" If you can make the rolls to call and bind it, you might gain a CR 12 ally who not only is a very powerful melee combatant but can throw enervation at will.
Love your stuff DMDM can't wait to see a full guide...
I know you're aware now of the magiccircle+dimensional anchor/diagram stuff now...
when you revise, don't disregard and leave out the willsave/SR stuff and solely list by CHA score. its still useful to know if your casting spells at your bound guests.
though I would emphasize that the CHA check is the only thing that really matters if you're prepared.
a disclaimer about the importance of reading the flavor text for all your outsiders are important. because many DMS will eventually get upset with your "friends" and use flavor text to screw with your plans.
Good stuff.
Also of interest may be the nosoi [CR 2, SR -, Will +4, Cha 16] and vanth [CR 7, SR 18, Will + 10, Cha 17] psychopomps.
All psychopomps have Spirit Sense, a variation of blind sight that works on living and undead creatures.
Nosoi with their at-will invisibility make nice little scouts, and can convinced to work for shiny trinkets to add to their tail feather decorations. They can also have speak w/ dead (cast at 12th level) 3/day.
Vanth are for much more serious work - they're dedicated undead hunters, and like all psychopomps, they treat their natural attacks and weapons as ghost-touch. They're extremely durable (DR 10/adamantine!) and are solid allies if you're expecting lots of undead.
However, psychopomps will immediately turn on you if they discover you employ undead yourself. So keep that in mind if pulling one in.
One last thing - if you can afford it, a persistent spell metamagic rod is immensely helpful. Casting your binding spell and having it fail because of a high roll by the GM is a real bummer; a persistent spell rod can reduce the odds of that happening.
you also may want to consider angling your guide to be a guide to planar binding...since you're compiling so much info and i haven't seen a guide for it. optimizing the diabolist as an aside...
And Hell came following after...A Practical Guide to the Diabolist and Effective Planar Binding.
most high level casters will use planar binding/ally from time to time.
so this will be a very useful guide.
Douglas Muir 406 wrote: Succubus* [CR 7, SR 18, Will +10, Cha 27] -- No no no. Bad idea. Look at that Will save. Now look at that Charisma... the number, look at the number. Succubi are incredibly hard to call and bind for a creature of their CR. You can use debuffs and the like to make binding easier. I recommend an Enervation hitched to a Bestow Curse, for starters (multiple curses, even, one for each colour of the rainbow). Anywhere from a -5 to a -8 on her ability checks, depending on how you roll with the enervation, and if you really want her then you can burn a limited wish to get a -7 on her ability check. Additionally, a Mind Fog will impose a -10 to WIS checks and Will saves, while only being a 5th level spell. That's just off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are more.
Once you have 8th level spells, this becomes slightly less necessary, of course. Then you'll be using a GPB and can drop a Moment of Prescience to make sure you're winning the opposed check.
Zhangar wrote: Good stuff. Thank you!
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Also of interest may be the nosoi [CR 2, SR -, Will +4, Cha 16] and vanth [CR 7, SR 18, Will + 10, Cha 17] psychopomps.
This was getting crazy long already! And because it's aimed at the Diabolist, I ignored all creatures not LN, LE or NE except for the Akhata Aeon (because it's so darn useful). That said, the vanth with its undead killing abilities is definitely a worthy addition to the list.
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One last thing - if you can afford it, a persistent spell metamagic rod is immensely helpful. Casting your binding spell and having it fail because of a high roll by the GM is a real bummer; a persistent spell rod can reduce the odds of that happening.
Great tip, and will be added to the guide! Thank you!
Sandbox wrote: you also may want to consider angling your guide to be a guide to planar binding...since you're compiling so much info and i haven't seen a guide for it. optimizing the diabolist as an aside...
And Hell came following after...A Practical Guide to the Diabolist and Effective Planar Binding.
Seriously considering it. Thanks for the suggestion.
Doug M.
Alleran wrote:
You can use debuffs and the like to make binding easier.
I think that's an open question, actually. Here's my reasoning: the RAW says that "Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to." To me this means that you can't command your conjured creature to do a job that's clearly and obviously going to lead to its destruction. Similarly, once you've established command, you can't order your conjured creature into a suicide attack. Potentially dangerous melee combat, yes; have the CR 5 barbazu charge into the jaws of the CR 20 ancient gold dragon to cover your escape, no.
It seems equally reasonable that you can't conjure a creature just to kill it. And that's not an abstract issue! You can conjure aasimars with Lesser Planar Binding -- they're on the list, CR 1/2 creatures and pretty easy to call and bind. (Presumably these are aasimars who live on the Outer Planes.) Can you conjure up an aasimar in the morning, and then sacrifice it to gain +2 on conjuring a shadow demon or a barbazu in the afternoon? I mean, it would be pretty convenient, right? Much simpler and safer than raiding the local orphanage or whatever.
The answer clearly has to be no: "stand still while I murder you" is pretty much the definition of an unreasonable command. To narrow that down, if you conjured up the aasimar and then caught it by surprise and knocked it out, I'd say okay... you could use the unconscious aasimar as a sacrifice, fair enough. But you couldn't conjure it and command it to just stand there while you cut its throat.
Still with me? Okay then, it seems to me that "sit there while I cast debuff after debuff to lower your Will and intelligence and drain your life energy" is pretty unreasonable. I mean, the outsider doesn't know that you're just trying to soften it up. Enervation is death magic! So, I think there's an argument to be made that trying this sort of thing causes you to immediately roll a "1" on your opposed Cha check breaking the circle and turning the outsider loose. By way of analogy, imagine trying to roll a Diplomacy check against someone while simultaneously hitting them with Bestow Curse or Enervation. No matter how high your Diplomacy bonus or how well you roll, the response is still going to be "Hostile".
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I recommend an Enervation hitched to a Bestow Curse, for starters (multiple curses, even, one for each colour of the rainbow). Anywhere from a -5 to a -8 on her ability checks, depending on how you roll with the enervation, and if you really want her then you can burn a limited wish to get a -7 on her ability check.
Well, but by the time you can cast Limited Wish, whatever do you need a succubus for? (Besides the obvious, I mean. And, frankly, if you can spend 1500 gp on a Limited Wish...) If you're 13+ level, a CR 7 outsider, however hott, is going to be of limited (practical, mechanical) utility.
Doug M.
Your summoning circle trap fails and lets the subject out if someone so much as tosses a straw across it.
I think it's pretty reasonable to say that launching an offensive spell against the subject inside the summoning circle breaks the circle.
Taking offensive actions against your bound servants later on may constitute a breach, and ends the contract, as well.
Now, here's an interesting bit for consideration -
The day-per-level duration only kicks in if you leave the task open-ended - no built-in duration or limits. I.e., be my bodyguard and follow my orders.
Depending on your reading on it, you could actually get a creature for much longer than the day/level limit as long as you actually set a proper limit - either a fixed period of time, and/or fixed instance of occurrences. "Be my bodyguard and follow my orders for one month or until you have fought fifteen battles on my behalf, whichever comes first."
The longer the term of the contract, the harder the opposed charisma check reasonably should be.
Now, native outsiders are actually pretty tricky to bind -
Ultimate Magic wrote: A native outsider cannot be called and bound from the Material Plane. In order to call any outsider, it must be on a different plane from the binder. Native outsiders (or other outsiders currently manifesting on the Material Plane) can only be called and bound by spellcasters on a different plane. The easiest work around to that, if you really want a kami or oni, is to do your planar binding inside of the space created by a rope trick. This does have the enormous drawback of your summoning circle going away when the spell ends, releasing your subject(s) if you failed to coerce them into service. The best workaround would be a permanent demiplane, but at that point you're a caller who can make a demiplane.
For the evil conjurer with time, patience, and his own demiplane - called native outsiders still need to eat and drink. After a day or two (or more) of no food and water, a conjurer might start getting some pretty significant leeway in pressuring a native outsider into a grossly unjust contract (like one with a duration measured in years).
Results may depend on how far the clause "unreasonable commands are never agreed to" actually extends.
Douglas Muir 406 wrote: I think that's an open question, actually. Here's my reasoning: the RAW says that "Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to." To me this means that you can't command your conjured creature to do a job that's clearly and obviously going to lead to its destruction. Similarly, once you've established command, you can't order your conjured creature into a suicide attack. Not at all. You're never ordering them to commit suicide, you're weakening them so that they agree to what you do want. In the example of a barbazu, you can call it up and make a deal like "be my bodyguard for the next week" or "serve me in <insert way here, e.g. interrogation or whatever> twelve times, upon which I will grant your freedom and return you home" (or similar). Pretty reasonable.
You don't try to bind one during some pre-dragon buffs and say "you need to charge straight at the big gold dragon in the next room" (that's very much an unreasonable demand). For that sort of thing, toss it to a Summon Monster spell.
Quote: So, I think there's an argument to be made that trying this sort of thing causes you to immediately roll a "1" on your opposed Cha check breaking the... Until you roll that opposed CHA check and get a 1, you haven't done anything that means they auto-break the trap. If they want to break out when you start battering them with debuffs, then there is clear provision in the rules of the spell for what they are permitted to do with regards to escape:
"The creature can escape from the trap by successfully pitting its Spell Resistance against your caster level check, by dimensional travel, or with a successful Charisma check (DC 15 + 1/2 your caster level + your Charisma modifier). It can try each method once per day."
Beyond that is house rules. Remember, as polite as you can be with Planar Binding, it is not the same as Planar Ally. You're not calling up an unbound creature to politely pay it for its services. You're trapping something and, by and large, are bullying/compelling it to serve you.
Quote: If you're 13+ level, a CR 7 outsider, however hott, is going to be of limited (practical, mechanical) utility. It's plenty useful (which is why I picked it as an example, besides the high-stats). Have it act as your party face to bluff/diplomacy your way through something and take advantage of its Change Shape (need a decoy?). Or have it use Ethereal Jaunt and Greater Teleport (at will) to scout for you. And so on and so forth (even get the profane gift, Flesh to Stone it, and then split it into several pieces before hiding them separately, if you're desperate for a +2 ability score bonus). Combat isn't what you call up a succubus for, it's out of combat application.
Zhangar wrote: Your summoning circle trap fails and lets the subject out if someone so much as tosses a straw across it.
I think it's pretty reasonable to say that launching an offensive spell against the subject inside the summoning circle breaks the circle.
I hadn't even thought of that aspect of it. Good point!
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The day-per-level duration only kicks in if you leave the task open-ended - no built-in duration or limits. [...] Depending on your reading on it, you could actually get a creature for much longer than the day/level limit as long as you actually set a proper limit - either a fixed period of time, and/or fixed instance of occurrences. "Be my bodyguard and follow my orders for one month or until you have fought fifteen battles on my behalf, whichever comes first."
I've been thinking hard about this. The RAW is really unclear. I can't speak for anyone else, but my inclination would be to enforce a pretty hard days/level limit. Otherwise, the number of creatures you can have rises towards infinity. You could have a hundred devils guarding your castle and fifty more marching before you into battle. That just seems way over the top for a 5th or 6th level spell. I think the days/level limit serves a really useful purpose in terms of game balance.
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The longer the term of the contract, the harder the opposed charisma check reasonably should be.
This is another point where the spell's language is not as tight as it should be. Under the RAW, the worst that can happen is that you get a +0 on your opposed Cha check. It doesn't allow for negative modifiers! So you can enforce a pretty crap deal on your bearded devil, and as long as you're not activating the "impossible or unreasonable" clause, it has to obey -- you're a sorceror with 20 Cha and +4 infernal charisma, and the poor schmuck barbazu has +0 on its Cha check. As long as you don't order it to do something off-the-hook impossible, it's going to lose the opposed check and get bound to obedience about 90% of the time.
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Now, native outsiders are actually pretty tricky to bind [...]
The easiest work around to that, if you really want a kami or oni, is to do your planar binding inside of the space created by a rope trick. This does have the enormous drawback of your summoning circle going away when the spell ends, releasing your subject(s) if you failed to coerce them into service. The best workaround would be a permanent demiplane, but at that point you're a caller who can make a demiplane.
Not sure if I'd allow the rope trick trick, but points for creativity -- that's really clever. I would definitely allow conjuring from a demiplane, though as you say it's probably moot. There aren't a lot of native outsiders that are incredibly desirable anyway AFAICT.
Doug M.
On the duration thing - there is precedent for durations well in excess of 1 day/level.
Now, there's probably better examples out of AP chapters; my spoilered examples above are a little funky because of the involvement of a certain catastrophically dangerous little old lady.
Capping durations at a hard limit of 1 day/level for game balance purposes is a fair point, though. That makes it require an enormous expenditure of time and spells for a caller to maintain a small posse, pretty much meaning that that's what they do during downtime. It'd be the GM's discretion as to whether the caller could still devote 8 hours to crafting or research that day after spending a chunk of the morning calling and contracting.
The rope trick is big enough to fit 8 people; I'd think there's space for a summoning trap, as large as your targeted creature isn't too big. There'd certainly be enough space in a magnificent mansion, but if you can cast magnificent mansion you could make a lesser demiplane instead.
Moderate strength native outsiders of use include the yamabushi tengu (6 HD, SR 14, Will +4, Cha 16), the ogre mage (8 HD, SR 19, Will + 10, Cha 17), and the common rakshasa (10 HD, Will +8, SR 25, Cha 17).
A conjurer with greater planar binding and nerves of steel could try to bind a wendigo (18 HD, will +11, SR 28, Cha 24). I keep forgetting those are native outsiders and not undead!
There's a lot of weird options for native outsiders, though a lot of them are actually good aligned (most mid-tier kami, coautls, etc.).
you could research a specific native outsider with class levels?
Douglas Muir 406 wrote: There aren't a lot of native outsiders that are incredibly desirable anyway AFAICT. Hmmm...how about PCs? Anyone playing an Aasimar or Tiefling would be vulnerable to a BBEG casting Plane Shift, then Planar Binding.
Let’s hope your plane-touched characters haven’t been going around telling people their names!
Come to think of it, a PC might occasionally get the opportunity to use Planar Binding directly on outsider enemies. Or in PVP...
One also has to be careful with how you order the outsider around. Look at Harry Dresden for examples of how do exactly what you are told and accomplish the exact opposite.
If you get bind someone into bodyguard service they might think the best way to keep you alive is make sure you have a cell in hell.
Also if you kill everything you bind then doing any service for you is unreasonable as long as this is known about you. If you overly abused something that can cast plane shift then expect to come calling with some friends at an inconvenient time.
You also need to limit what it can do on its own. Since many of these guys have greater teleport at will then if you even give them 3 rounds to do what they want they get 1 round of whatever where ever. This could be to deliver a message to your enemies or simply to go kill some random dude somewhere.
In general I would say that using this tactic is a poor idea in a campaign that uses published materials and the more directly you use this for combat the more displeased many DMs will be. In generally I would feel the need to add each bound creatures exp to the budget of each encounter. If there is more exp in devils then in PCs things will out hand very quickly.
Zhangar wrote: On the duration thing - there is precedent for durations well in excess of 1 day/level. Yeah, Paizo has been kinda sloppy on that IMO. Several of the APs have summoned creatures still somehow stuck in circles after decades (or, in one case, thousands of years) have passed.
The Planar Binding spells have a lot of holes and unclear bits in them. There are several hacks that clever players can use -- someone already mentioned the "summon the succubus, force a Profane Gift out of her to get +2 on your casting stat, petrify her and break up the statue into pieces" trick. Arguably legal under RAW, because a petrified creature counts as unconscious, not dead!
I dislike house rules, but sometimes you have to step up.
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Capping durations at a hard limit of 1 day/level for game balance purposes is a fair point, though. That makes it require an enormous expenditure of time and spells for a caller to maintain a small posse, pretty much meaning that that's what they do during downtime. It'd be the GM's discretion as to whether the caller could still devote 8 hours to crafting or research that day after spending a chunk of the morning calling and contracting.
Actually, once you get your Spellcraft bonus up to +19 -- so that you no longer need to take 20 on drawing your circle -- you can do the circle in 10 minutes and the calling in 10 more. Boom, you're done and it's not even time for breakfast. I would allow you to spend another 8 hours on crafting or research that day, absolutely.
Also: if you take the Fast Study discovery -- totally available at 5th level! -- you could, in theory, cast Planar Binding once per hour, eight times per day. Man, I wouldn't even know what to do with that one.
Doug M.
Plus the capstone lets you call as std. And bargain as a move....
Thanks real fast
Mathius wrote: In general I would say that using this tactic is a poor idea in a campaign that uses published materials and the more directly you use this for combat the more displeased many DMs will be. I discuss that a little bit in this post.
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In generally I would feel the need to add each bound creatures exp to the budget of each encounter. If there is more exp in devils then in PCs things will out hand very quickly.
Familiars, animal companions, summoned creatures, and cohorts don't absorb party experience, so why should conjured monsters? I believe there are other ways to balance this.
Doug M.
Zhangar wrote: Moderate strength native outsiders of use include the yamabushi tengu (6 HD, SR 14, Will +4, Cha 16), the ogre mage (8 HD, SR 19, Will + 10, Cha 17), and the common rakshasa (10 HD, Will +8, SR 25, Cha 17).
A conjurer with greater planar binding and nerves of steel could try to bind a wendigo (18 HD, will +11, SR 28, Cha 24). I keep forgetting those are native outsiders and not undead!
The ogre mage doesn't have much that you couldn't get elsewhere. The rakshasa has annoyingly high SR for its CR; it's okay in combat(mostly because of its high DR) but you'd really only use one for a specialist infiltrator/spy. The wendigo... as a terror weapon, I guess? It has telepathy in a one mile range, so I suppose you could have it stalk the wild lands around your castle.
Doug M.
Here is my list on how to use this spell in ways that the DM will not mind from least disruptive to most.
1. Guarding a base. This one really has not impact at all unless the DM wants to attack you while not adventuring.
2. As a replacement for the spells the party can not cast themselves. Usually this means you had to use up more spells and time then if the party could do it themselves but it is not so different then hiring a spellcaster but free. Almost no DM will mind if you use this to heal the party.
3. Effect the world offstage. Want a king dead but do not want to do it yourself, this is a great way to go. The outsiders may not succeed and even if they do it may not go the way you want. Even if does if can very much further the storyline. Be careful to no take this farter then your table wants it to go.
4. Getting free stuff that does not effect combat. Having outsiders build you base for free (even a demi plane) can easily be abused but stuff like this can often be negotiated. Do not try and turn this into a combat advantage though. This can also short circuit the story of how you got your stuff. Also do not try and sell the stuff for GP.
5. Scouting and information. Sometimes these things be just to good at getting info for you. As with and info gathering if creates more opportunity for adventure it is great but if it allows you just skip to the end of and adventure it is bad.
6. Buffs for the party while the PCs actually do all the fighting. This a vast power increase but it does not disrupt the speed of combat. This can often work to increase the number of encounters taken between rests.
7. Combat this can easily make the game unfun to play so only take this so far.
8. Duplicate the role a PC has set for himself. This really only okay if the player is not at the game. If you bind something that scouts better then the party scout or heals better the party healer then you ofter ruin the fun at least that player.
9. Free money. If you use the money to buy a super cool pirate ship or even BP for a kingdom then see point 4. If you order your outsiders to go and steal or make X, Y, and Z items for you, then you a deliberately trying to violate whatever WBL setting the campaign has been designed for. This okay only if it is used a reason to get an otherwise hard to obtain item and you pay for it in someway. It can even be paid for by the DM reducing further found wealth. This way is not really free money but a story reason for you to be able to buy something that other wise does not have a reason to be available for purchase. I have zero problem with being a way to buy 25k+ items
10. Adventuring for you. This one is downright rude and utter kills a game. If the DM has spent time preparing and adventure for you do not send your minions and stay home. This could only work if you bind at least one minion for each player and trade out your sheets for it. Do not expect EXP or treasure though.
11. EXP farming. If you deliberately summon them just to kill them for exp you are a dick. Do not use that you a good wizard and doing the is to bad outsiders or the reverse to try and justify it. Only every do this as a way to get s specific outsider for story reasons and even then it can fall into the category of not cool.
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10. Adventuring for you. This one is downright rude and utter kills a game. If the DM has spent time preparing and adventure for you do not send your minions and stay home. This could only work if you bind at least one minion for each player and trade out your sheets for it. Do not expect EXP or treasure though. Who would even do this? I mean... that would just be very weird.
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11. EXP farming. If you deliberately summon them just to kill them for exp you are a dick. Pretty sure you would not get experience for this, any more than you could get experience for fighting summoned monsters.
Doug M.
I would never hand out exp for it but I know some players who think of TT RPGs the same way as computer games and want to exploit any thing for advantage.
10 happens when the player goes, well it is the best way for my character to do X. These players forget about the social contract at the table and just want to win the adventure.
If you are going to discuss Planar Binding then you should probably note the impact of Binding Efreeti for their wishes. You note it for the Glabrezu in the Greater Binding spell.
andreww wrote: If you are going to discuss Planar Binding then you should probably note the impact of Binding Efreeti for their wishes. You note it for the Glabrezu in the Greater Binding spell. Ugh, I forgot about the efreeti. Probably because I've always disliked the idea of a CR 8 creature being able to grant three wishes without any RAW or even flavor text strings attached. I mean, I have no problem with the fantasy trope of a wish-granting genie. That's fine. But the efreet is something that a mid-level party will be able to beat up, charm, trick, or otherwise get the better of. So there should be well thought out restrictions on how it throws those wishes around. But there aren't.
Paizo /PF is better than Wizards / 3.x was about this sort of thing, but there are still holes in the game and this is one of them.
Doug M.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
I think many of those examples of creatures remaining for so long would be examples of the use of the Binding spell on something you've summoned using Planar Binding, the Hedged Prison version has no duration and by giving an escape clause like the one in Witchwar Legacy would only reduce the save DC by 1.
Whoops, forgot one for all you cat lovers out there.
Hellcat* [CR 7, Will +5, SR 18, Cha 10] -- The Hellcat is not actually a devil, so your Infernal Charisma won't help with it. Fortunately, it has lowish Will and Charisma, so this need not be a serious problem. Sky-high Perception and Stealth + near-invisibility in light + pounce/rake make this cat your assassin in broad daylight. It's a very good melee combatant that's even better when the lights are on. The RAW makes a big deal about how this creature will plot revenge on you if slighted. This is a rare case where I think you can ignore the RAW if you want to, as the Hellcat is an Int 10 creature that can neither fly nor teleport nor plane shift and has no mind control powers or other alarming SLAs. I mean, you don't /want/ an invisible pouncing hell-feline running around with a grudge against you. But compared to some of the other creatures on this list -- at the same CR, consider the Shadow Demon or the Succubus -- the Hellcat's ability to deliver horrible surprises is pretty limited. This is one of the rare called outsiders you can hold off with a sturdy locked door while you fire up a Scry and then contact the local paladins.
Also, how about the Ostarius.
CR 5, will +11, wow its a tough call but the dark side doesn't get bards. This guy is a 5th level bard, who doesn't run out of bardic performance rounds, but accepting his performance comes with a price if you're not an outsider. Still good for buffing the erinyes though!
Also, he's lawful evil. I wouldn't trust a broken soul illend, they're chaotic.
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