Hello folks,
I'm currently Gamemastering a Campaign and ran into some issues concerning the next few sessions. The next paragraph will explain how i got to the questions written below it, but i think the questions can be answered without context. Oh and im sorry if im hard to understand, english isn't my first language.
The next part will take place in a primal forest mainly inhabited by monstrous humanoids and fey. As i have never really used fey as enemys before and generally tiny or smaller creatures basicly only in swarms i have some problems wrapping my head around 0-feet-range combatants. Usually i would just not use rules i have problems understanding (in this case only using small or larger fey) but since we are running a mythic campaign and we got one really creative player around he forces me to finally understand these rules. This guy is playing a Halfling Slayer (from the advanced class guide playtest), will soon Ascend, take either champion or trickster and is playing around with the idea of taking the titans bane feature, especially since our wizard had the idea of using reduce person on him, making him tiny, so he can use the titans bane feature even on medium enemys.
The last question is only relevant in a mythic setting, the rest is of general interest to me to understand tiny creatures in combat:
1. Does a creature using a reach weapon threaten the sqare(s) it is occupying?
2. Does a creature with natural weapons, that uses a manufactured weapon, treat its natural attacks as primary or secondary nat. weapons on attacks of opportunity the round after it used the manufactured weapon on its turn to attack?
3. How are attacks of creatures with a reach of 0 feet normally resolved? I know it has to enter the square of the creature it wants to attack, but as far as i understand it, it cannot actually share the same space unless the other creature is also tiny or smaller. It has to use an action to move into the square, then another to attack, then it doesnt have an action to leave the square again. Is it staying or does it get a free action to move out and if so can it go to any adjecent square or must it move back to the square it came from?.
4. Is it possible to 5-foot step into another creatures square and if so, does it trigger an attack of opportunity?
5. How do reach weapons work on tiny creatures?
6. Can a tiny creature enter an opponents square on a charge?
7. If a large or larger creature currently occupies the same square as a smaller creature and moves, but after the movement stil occupies a square with the same creature, is it effectively entering an occupied square?
8. Titans bane enables the Halfling to share a square with larger enemys. Is this part of the ability shared with the other creature or is the other creature forced to move out of the halflings square?
Thanks in advance to anyone who can shed a little light on my questions. I hate to houserule stuff because i dont understand it, better i understand it first before i decide on houseruling anything.
3,6. A tiny creature can occupy, or move through, the same space as another creature, so it does not have to leave after the attack.
4. A 5-foot-step prevents the AoO for leaving a threatened space, but entering another creature's space will still provoke an AoO regardless.
Thanks a lot for 3 and 4!
Im not yet entirely sure about 6 because in the rules for charge it says "You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge". The closest space from which you can attack the opponent is by definition occupied if you have 0-feet-range. I was wondering if there is any kind of exception for the case of zero-range creatures.
For 6 it would have to enter the square. The rules are generally from a player centric view point and they tend to use medium or small creatures Tiny creatures have to enter another creature's square to threaten so on a charge they have to enter the square.
For 6 it would have to enter the square. The rules are generally from a player centric view point and they tend to use medium or small creatures Tiny creatures have to enter another creature's square to threaten so on a charge they have to enter the square.
So basicly RAW says "no", but logic says "why not?", okay
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3,6. A tiny creature can occupy, or move through, the same space as another creature, so it does not have to leave after the attack.
4. A 5-foot-step prevents the AoO for leaving a threatened space, but entering another creature's space will still provoke an AoO regardless.
Rules do say that "You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity." Nothing in there about leaving a space or entering a space. Just that 5 foot steps don't provoke.
That said, I agree with everyone saying the rules for tiny creatures need work, because RAW also reads as Tiny creatures can't charge because they end in an occupied space, which is a dumb rule.
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If you enter another creature's square you provoke twice.
Once for moving within their threatened area
Once for entering their square.
If you five foot step into their square you do not provoke from the first situation but still provoke from the second.
Allow I would not use this rule, tiny creature by RAW cannot charge, I find this both hilarious and sad.
Also note that reach weapons are of no help to tiny and smaller as they double natural reach and 2 x 0 is still 0. The lunge feat however is very useful.
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@ OP: beef up Acrobatics if you're afraid of AoOs. Most fey in my game have decent Dex and Acrobatics is a class skill. Make a lot of Acro checks with their movement and roll high.
1. Yes they threaten 5', so if you're worried give your sprites longspears.
2. standard RAW is that if no feat or monster ability makes the nat. attacks part of their full attack action then they are secondary after the manuf. weapon so a fey-touched spider monkey (size Tiny) attacking with a club and a bite attack treats one of those two attacks as a secondary attack.
3. Ok, here's how it goes: creature moves into enemy square - this provokes (see Acrobatics above!) for entering the occupied square. If done without a 5' step, Acrobatics, or some other extenuating circumstance anyone standing directly around the occupied square w/5' reach or 10' away from the occupied square w/10' reach also provokes since the 0' reach creature moved through a threatened square. Anyway, once it's in there, if it's still alive the creature makes its attack. If the creature remains in said square it may later make full attacks; otherwise leaving that square is just entering the square in reverse for provoking.
4. Asked and answered.
5. Again, asked and answered (I think)
6. A 0' reach creature can Charge into an occupied square; provoking still applies.
7. If the leaving creature never actually MADE IT OUT of the occupied square, then no. Otherwise if they leave and come back in they provoke.
8. I don't know this ability so I can't comment.
Think of it like this: a squirrel charges you, but you have a heavy stick in your hand at the time and are trained at how to hit moving objects with said stick. Can squirrels make a beeline for a person, beat their reach w/the animal's speed and run RIGHT UP THEM? Yes, I've seen it happen. So the squirrel can Charge into you. Once it runs past your buddy and gets to your reach you could both try to hit it; more than likely you miss since squirrels are actually quicklings in disguise. Then it leaps, bites your face and hurls itself away from you. You bat at it haphazardly as it leaves but again, its small size and speed stymie your attempt. Congratulations - you've been successfully attacked by a Tiny (or maybe even Diminutive) creature!
3,6. A tiny creature can occupy, or move through, the same space as another creature, so it does not have to leave after the attack.
4. A 5-foot-step prevents the AoO for leaving a threatened space, but entering another creature's space will still provoke an AoO regardless.
Rules do say that "You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity." Nothing in there about leaving a space or entering a space. Just that 5 foot steps don't provoke.
That said, I agree with everyone saying the rules for tiny creatures need work, because RAW also reads as Tiny creatures can't charge because they end in an occupied space, which is a dumb rule.
The rules will continue to be player-centric. That is just how the game is written. I am not saying it is right, but you will have to extrapolate designer intent in many cases because the game does not work if you use RAW.
Thanks a lot! Got all i need now.