Would you allow a magus to research spells that would be on Line with some of the combat relatet wizard spells that is not on the magus list?
Spells like false life, energy protection or even heroism?
I am playing a Magus that is trying to do this in my Downtime. And i dont really have the detacthment to see it as anything but great.
But some how it also feeds like i am trying to get somthing that should cost me a feat, if i copyright the spells rigth over that is.
I welcome all kind of input and will ad it to my recomendation to the GM in this matter.
Thanks.
I wouldn't allow them to research things like energy protection. They armor, so some of the protective spells really should be sacrificed to help make up a bit for it.
The magus arcana Spell Blending is intended to allow magi to gain access to wizard spells to further supplement their spell lists.
Spell research is ... weird like that. It's like 'you can design a spell that does anything ... except not'. If you think about it, it doesn't make a lot of sense that you can't research things that aren't in your class's proverbial wheel house. I mean, that's why it's called 'research'. There's no logical reason, for instance, a wizard can't learn and cast 'Cure Light Wounds' except for niche protection.
I'm visualizing a 20th level wizard, thinking "Interplanetary teleportation? Check. Calling down meteors from the sky? Check. Binding souls? Check. Stopping time? Check. Fixing a papercut? wow, that's WAY beyond my abilities!"
I'd probably let you do it, but maybe jack the effective spell level up one for you.
I thank you guys for your input, please keep it coming.
But let me ask another question. there is some lines that spells shouldent cross like no healing spells for the wizard(except the designer B-team gave us that with infernal healing).
What is the line for the Magus? I ask because i dont see it clearly.
That's why Magic is Magic and not Science. It's whimsical and completely arbitrary as to what can't be done, what can be done, and what it will cost you to try.Spell research is ... weird like that. It's like 'you can design a spell that does anything ... except not'. If you think about it, it doesn't make a lot of sense that you can't research things that aren't in your class's proverbial wheel house. I mean, that's why it's called 'research'. There's no logical reason, for instance, a wizard can't learn and cast 'Cure Light Wounds' except for niche protection.
Arbitrary is bad.
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Arbitrary is bad.That's why Magic is Magic and not Science. It's whimsical and completely arbitrary as to what can't be done, what can be done, and what it will cost you to try.Spell research is ... weird like that. It's like 'you can design a spell that does anything ... except not'. If you think about it, it doesn't make a lot of sense that you can't research things that aren't in your class's proverbial wheel house. I mean, that's why it's called 'research'. There's no logical reason, for instance, a wizard can't learn and cast 'Cure Light Wounds' except for niche protection.
If you want a scientific magic system, don't play D&D.
Well, to be fair, a high level wizard can cast cure spells, via either UMD, or Shades. Or, if you have a ton of gold to burn, (limited) wish.Spell research is ... weird like that. It's like 'you can design a spell that does anything ... except not'. If you think about it, it doesn't make a lot of sense that you can't research things that aren't in your class's proverbial wheel house. I mean, that's why it's called 'research'. There's no logical reason, for instance, a wizard can't learn and cast 'Cure Light Wounds' except for niche protection.
I'm visualizing a 20th level wizard, thinking "Interplanetary teleportation? Check. Calling down meteors from the sky? Check. Binding souls? Check. Stopping time? Check. Fixing a papercut? wow, that's WAY beyond my abilities!"
I'd probably let you do it, but maybe jack the effective spell level up one for you.
Not really the point. The point was, curing a minor injury is nothing compared to the senses-shattering reality-warping spells wizards can cast.
It's hardly arbitrary or unbelievable to think that no one person or even one field of study can do everything, though.
Yeah, I tend to believe arbitrary is bad (at least, from a gameplay perspective). I dont think it's too bad to allow certain spells to cross (like resistance from energy, or rope trick). Some, less so (divine favor & power, righteous might). I dont really see the reason to avoid allowing spell reasearch, and I have a hard time seeing how the magus is balanced along it's (very limited) spell list.It's not an awful spell list, but it lack SOOO much utility.
Paizo lets arcane casters copy verbatim divine spells by way of spell research. So, why not? If they've got the time and gold let them have shiny toys.
Yeah, I tend to believe arbitrary is bad (at least, from a gameplay perspective). I dont think it's too bad to allow certain spells to cross (like resistance from energy, or rope trick). Some, less so (divine favor & power, righteous might). I dont really see the reason to avoid allowing spell reasearch, and I have a hard time seeing how the magus is balanced along it's (very limited) spell list.It's not an awful spell list, but it lack SOOO much utility.
Besides, the game isn't remotely balanced anyway, so any claims of 'it'll unbalance stuff' is pretty much a joke.
I could see maybe breaking stuff up by bonus type ... I could maybe understand arcanists not getting Sacred or Profane bonuses in some games, depending on the game world, maybe divine not getting luck bonuses. But you could just rename a lot of the spells (Divine Power -> Eldritch Power, Divine Favor -> Combat Luck), maybe change the bonus types, and you're good to go.
Take the Cure spells, make 'em Necromancies instead of Conjurations, call them something else ('Life Force Infusion' (Lesser/improved/greater) or something), and I doubt many people would look at a wizard funny for having them.
Yeah, I tend to believe arbitrary is bad (at least, from a gameplay perspective).
I think that arbitrary and balanced is more fun than non-arbitrary and unbalanced. The whole D&D spell system is to a large extent arbitrary -- why can I cast mage armor on someone else, but shield only on myself? Why can I fire a bolt of force with no chance of missing (and no "save," whatever that means), but not a bold of acid, fire, or lightning? Why can a summoner create a potion of greater invisibility but not a wizard? For that matter, why are elves tall and slender? -- I've seen Dobby the house elf described, and he's shorter than a hobbit.
On the other hand, it makes the game more fun if the rules allow for everyone at the table to be doing something and not step on each other's toes and roles. If I'm playing Robin Wood, the champion archer of Loamshire, I would like to think that there are things I can do, probably bow-related, that are specific to me, and that aren't going to be duplicated by Zandalf the Eggshell. And that is also part of what makes D&D fun. Or if it isn't, you picked the wrong game. There are certainly enough class-less RPGs out there that let you build whatever you like.
D&D was designed around the idea of specialists, and each specialist has strengths and weaknesses. It's generally unfair to game balance and to the other players at the table if you try to take advantage of a specialist's strengths and then doing all sorts of custom s*** to appropriate the other roles' strengths as well.
The magus, in particular, was designed around the idea of a fighter/wizard, with weaknesses to make sure it would neither out-fight the fighter or out-wiz the wizard; one of those weaknesses is a very limited spell list. When you say "oh, but I don't think that the magus should have a limited spell list," what are you going to say when the wizard asks for an all-day buff that gives him a fighter's BAB, feats, and hit points, or the fighter asks for a magic sword that will let him cast spells all day as a wizard?
The magus, in particular, was designed around the idea of a fighter/wizard, with weaknesses to make sure it would neither out-fight the fighter or out-wiz the wizard; one of those weaknesses is a very limited spell list. When you say "oh, but I don't think that the magus should have a limited spell list," what are you going to say when the wizard asks for an all-day buff that gives him a fighter's BAB, feats, and hit points, or the...
I for one dont want utility. And if i want some i will pay a feat. But i want some combat spells and i dont undestand where the Line is with the Magus.
In your opinion why is Bull strength a combat Spell but not Heroism? Why is protection from elements not when dimension door is? Why is teleport more of a combat Spell than false Life? If a magus in your game want to do Spell research how will you limit him?| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As someone who plays a spell researching magus, I don't see much of a problem with allowing spell research, because you're sacrificing a significant amount of wealth. That's wealth that could make your character powerful in other ways, so there's a disadvantage to using spell research over spell blending. A GM should allow it as long as it makes sense for your character to research that spell.
Keep in mind that the magus is limited by the number of unique spells he can prepare and by his spell progression. Even if he had every spell list in the game, he'd still be an inferior caster to a cleric or wizard. No matter how deep his bag of tricks goes, shocking grasp and other staple magus spells will always be the best spells he's got.
I recommend using the core spell research rules. The downtime rules for spell research are broken and obviously not playtested at all. My GM allowed my magus to research restoration since she's the only spellcaster in the group and party desperately needed a cleric. Using the Ultimate Campaign downtime rules, learning restoration would cost her at least 11,200gp and take her 28 days to complete. With the GameMastery Guide rules, it would cost her 4,000gp and take only 2 weeks. The only advantage to using downtime rules are lower check DCs and the ability to spend downtime capital. Sure, downtime lets you work in days at a time, but you have to perform a check for each of the 28 days -- you can't take 10 on them and failing risks losing money.
Overall, if your GM trusts you not to abuse it, spell research can be a really fun way to spice up your spellcaster. I personally always wanted to make a wizard that invented his own baleful polymorph spells.
As someone who plays a spell researching magus, I don't see much of a problem with allowing spell research, because you're sacrificing a significant amount of wealth. That's wealth that could make your character powerful in other ways, so there's a disadvantage to using spell research over spell blending. A GM should allow it as long as it makes sense for your character to research that spell.
Keep in mind that the magus is limited by the number of unique spells he can prepare and by his spell progression. Even if he had every spell list in the game, he'd still be an inferior caster to a cleric or wizard. No matter how deep his bag of tricks goes, shocking grasp and other staple magus spells will always be the best spells he's got.
I recommend using the core spell research rules. The downtime rules for spell research are broken and obviously not playtested at all. My GM allowed my magus to research restoration since she's the only spellcaster in the group and party desperately needed a cleric. Using the Ultimate Campaign downtime rules, learning restoration would cost her at least 11,200gp and take her 28 days to complete. With the GameMastery Guide rules, it would cost her 4,000gp and take only 2 weeks. The only advantage to using downtime rules are lower check DCs and the ability to spend downtime capital. Sure, downtime lets you work in days at a time, but you have to perform a check for each of the 28 days -- you can't take 10 on them and failing risks losing money.
Overall, if your GM trusts you not to abuse it, spell research can be a really fun way to spice up your spellcaster. I personally always wanted to make a wizard that invented his own baleful polymorph spells. [/QUOTE
] Idont think i will try to research restoration, but i do think you and i read the UC Spell research rules differently. I think they look Silly cheap.
But thanks for your input, guys we will play to nigth and i will find out if the gold i have put into researching is wasted or not:)
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The rules say you have to pay the 100*(spell level) per day and that it takes 7*(spell level) days of progress to complete researching a spell. This means it costs at least 700*(spell level)^2 to research a spell. In the core rules, it costs 1000*(spell level) and you never risk losing money.
The Core Rulebook allows you to perform spell research, either to create a new spell or learn an existing spell from another source. In the downtime system, the steps for spell research each day are as follows.
Pay 100 gp × the spell's level for research costs and rare ingredients. You may spend Goods or Magic toward this cost.
Determine the total days of progress required to complete the research, which is 7 × the spell level.
Determine the spell research DC, which is 10 + twice the spell's level.
Attempt a Spellcraft check and a Knowledge check (arcana for an arcane spell, religion for a divine spell) against the spell research DC. You can't take 10 on these checks. You may spend Magic to modify a check result, with 1 point of Magic adding 2 to your total (maximum +10). If both checks succeed, you make 1 day's progress toward completing the spell. When your days of progress equal the total number of days needed, the spell is completed and added to your spellbook or list of spells known.
If either or both spell research checks fail by 4 or less, you make no progress. For each check that fails by 5 or more, your research has led to poor results and you lose a day of progress toward completing the spell.
If you're an alchemist, you can use this downtime option to research a new extract formula. Instead of a Spellcraft check, attempt a Craft (alchemy) check. For Knowledge (arcana) checks, you may attempt a Knowledge (nature) check instead.
Yes i had not payed attention to the pr Day part. Thanks for the heads up.
Dam, i ditent even see the rudeness in action.