Well, next week the regular gaming starts again. This week I was at an important job interview, which took all day... let's see if something comes of it.
Good luck with the job interview results! Also, thanks to you and all the other GMs in here who have played through Mythic rules and found all sorts of traps and pitfalls. It's definitely made me feel happy that my implementation of the Mythic rules (in a homebrew adaption of the Baldur's Gate Shadows of Amn game) is cherry-picked abilities for my PCs with a couple of choices rather than implementing the entire system. They've definitely gotten stronger after getting even a couple Mythic abilities, but I can avoid letting any PC get a full suite of abilities that destroys the fun.
I do think that if I ever run this I'm going to scrap Mythic entirely for the players and instead use regenerating Hero Points. And let's be honest: at higher levels, non-Mythic characters have a lot of options. Do they truly need what's added with Mythic?
Ultimately, Mythic may be a fun and enjoyable element to add to lower-level play, but once you have characters above 10th level, Mythic may be an element that ultimately isn't beneficial for enjoyable play.
Good luck with the job interview results!
Thank you, I'll know the results somewhen in January.
Also, thanks to you and all the other GMs in here who have played through Mythic rules and found all sorts of traps and pitfalls. It's definitely made me feel happy that my implementation of the Mythic rules (in a homebrew adaption of the Baldur's Gate Shadows of Amn game) is cherry-picked abilities for my PCs with a couple of choices rather than implementing the entire system. They've definitely gotten stronger after getting even a couple Mythic abilities, but I can avoid letting any PC get a full suite of abilities that destroys the fun.
Happy to be of service! :)
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Well, I gave up. 100 point crits at 8th level for min-maxing characters is too much. Being able to cast any necessary spell as needed makes defense against attacks too easy for an organized party. Fleet Strike makes it too easy to close and get full attacks. With the crit inflation, the game is too hard to manage numerically. I'm deriving no pleasure from the insane time involved creating statistical creature blocks versus the time it takes my players to rip them apart. Rule system can't handle the number inflation well at all. All mythic did was take an already cumbersome system and make it more cumbersome.
The end monster in Sword of Valor is more annoying than fun. Sure, he can be hard to kill. He doesn't do near enough damage to keep up with party healing. Paladin cuts right through his DR. His most effective attack is to hide and summon shadows. He can do that all day. It's not fun and leads to an overlong, boring combat scenario. The party can just grab the item and run out to complete the win anyhow.
What an amazing miss by Paizo. Story was a great read though. I liked Wrath of the Righteous conceptually. Mythic rule set was awful. Mythic Adventures should have an entry at the start that says "Don't bother DMing it. Just play a character and put stuff on the map for the player's to kill. You'll have more fun that way."
Well, that was my last Pathfinder campaign for a while. I'm back to D&D after a long hiatus. They made the game fun again. It's not as detailed as Pathfinder, but it's a quality system, combat is fun and fluid, and the system is well designed for the type of story telling D&D thrives on. I'll probably still adapt Paizo modules because they're the best amongst RPGs in my opinion. I don't imagine Paizo and WotC will ever get along to the point Paizo will produce 5E modules (even though it would be great for D&D). Paizo still produces the highest quality adventures from the story content to the extras. I'll miss that for sure.
Thanks for all the info, magnuskn. I just couldn't do it. Mythic Adventures burned me out as a DM. Too much work for too little reward. The entire rule set seemed like big numbers for the sake of big numbers as though that is the only way to represent being epic. Pathfinder was already a big number game. Characters were already Herculean in nature as far as numbers went. Mythic made the numbers ridiculous and unwieldy.
That is sad to hear, Piccolo, but pretty typical for a WotR campaign. People start out optimistically, then that optimism fades very quickly because of all the insane damage PC's put out and all the other imbalances of Mythic Adventures.
As I said, I am going to finish this AP no matter what, but I am not taking it seriously anymore. My review of the AP will probably more of an indictment of Mythic Adventures than of the AP itself, but there are problems with the campaign, just as well as good points. I'll try to point out as much of them as I can put together.
Anyway, next Tuesday it will be the fight against the Herald and Baphomet. I am thinking about cheating like a mo-fo for Baphomet, by rebuilding him in a few ways.
First idea: Adding the Opportune Parry deed from the Swashbuckler class to his abilities (with a corresponding Panache pool of 12 points). This will basically negate the first attacks of the melee guys, giving Baphomet some time to put out some offense on his own.
Second idea: Adding some sort of automatical spell-turning mechanic (with limited charges, maybe one or two ), so that the Sorcerer can't simply nuke Baphomet with two Augmented Mythic Fireballs.
Third idea: Taunting one of the melee guys (preferably the Paladin or Samurai) to "take one shot for free", which would probably mean an incoming 500 points of damage. While that may be a lot, since I use Scorpions upgrades, 270 points of that damage would be absorbed and reflected, meaning I'd probably take out the PC in question.
For those three things I'd take out the cheesy "cast Augmented Mythic Time Stop, kill one guy at a time" tactic, which I think just reeks of cheese.
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Embrace the Iron Gods.
Resistance is futile.
I own the first third modules. Not impressed, so far.
I mostly meant Piccolo, alas the slowness of my phone meant you posted first:)
i have the first two books, they look pretty good (albeit i've only just glanced at book 2) I like it personally.
Unrelated im curious how you tie RMD! Into shattered star tho
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I'm probably just going to give Rasputin a shard, although I maybe will have to change the shards around, sloth doesn't really become the guy. His justification for owning it will probably gaining power somewhere... it doesn't have to be too deep. ^^
Someone posted a suggestion for Mythic Time Stop and then prepping the area with desecrate and some spells like summoning balors.
Session of November 4th 2014
Five players in attendance.
The session began with a discussion about which AP we should play next. After a vote where everybody got one vote, the result was 4 to 2 (presumable 3, but the last player was missing) for <drumroll> Rise of the Runelords SE! My personal preference was for Shattered Star, but since I laid out clearly that SS was a successor to both Curse of the Crimson Throne (which we have played as our first Paizo AP something like six to seven years ago) and Rise of the Runelords, the consensus of the players who wanted RotRL was that we should play both of them before taking on SS.
The AP which lost out was Reign of Winter, which will be gotten to somewhen in the future. Maybe. I still plan to integrate Rasputin Must Die! into Shattered Star, so there is no real need for it. And presumably until we get to there, two or three new possible AP's will have come out.
Anyway, on to the main topic: The fight against the Herald and then against Baphomet. As usual I used Scorpions upgrades.
The Herald had a pretty ingnominous fight. He deflected two attacks from the Ranger back to her (I rolled the minimum amount of deflections, i.e. two) and then she, incredibly, critted three times in a row with natural 20's. The player rolled in front of me, so it was legit. The Herald was down to -35 HP, but due his mythicness still alive. The Sorcerer changed to a large earth elemental and sat down on the Herald (i.e. he grappled him), the Paladin stuffed the heart back into his body and then they atoned him back to purity.
And that was that. Baphomet was coming, the party knew it and they plane shifted the Herald back to Iomedae's plane.
Then Baphomet arrived, gave his little speech and dared the Paladin to strike him down. I was secretly hoping that the Paladin would land a critical hit and reduce himself to cinders, but he "only" landed a hit for 140 HP and so reduced the deflector shield of Baphomet down 130 points, landing those 140 points of damage on himself. Baphomet bought one attack via Amazing Initiative, then gave one strike back for something like 90 damage. He then used his Breath Weapon, which failed to affect the Cleric, Sorcerer/Cleric and Paladin, due to their Death Ward spell. The Ranger evaded it and the other two ate something like 90 damage when they failed their saves. Baphomet then gated in 3 Balors as a free action and used his regular standard action to Maze the Sorcerer.
The Sorcerer got free with a well rolled 18 on his Intelligence check, while the Samurai ran up to Baphomet and ate an AoO for 80 damage for his trouble. His attacks were parried by the Opportune Parry ability I gave Baphomet (whom instead did not use Mythic Time Stop to simply kill the party one by one), so he could not even damage him. The Ranger and Barbarian killed off the three Balors in one round (the Ranger took out two and the Barbarian the third one) and the Cleric healed up the Paladin and the also wounded Samurai with a double Heal.
The Paladin did another single attack on Baphomet and hit him for 136 damage, again wounding himself for 130 damage, dispelling thus Baphomets deflector shield. He then full attacked, but was again completely parried by Baphomets Opportune Parry, although big B was running out of Panache (he had 12 points, 9 were gone by the end of this attack routine).
When it was Baphomets turn again, he bought a standard action and used it to teleport to the Sorcerer. He then bought another action and used Great Cleave to take out the Mirror Images of the Sorcerer (yes, I know Paizo buffed MI to make this impossible. Yes, I don't care a wit, the spell needs some sort of weakness). He then full attacked the Sorcerer, almost critting him, but the Heavy Fortification the Sorcerer used on his Celestial Armor negated the crit. Thus he was only at -9 HP after Baphomet was done.
Basically the rest was pretty fastly done. Baphomet ate 650 damage from the combined attacks of the party before it was the Paladins turn again, used up all his remaining Opportune Parrys against the Samurai and thus was hit by another critical hit with Foe Biter from the Paladin, whom finished him off quite nicely.
So, down he goes. The party is now at level 18 and tier 9. Next week we start the last module and I hope it goes along quickly. We'll probably have a round of shopping before the countdown starts and the Siege of Drezen begins. I'm calculating a maximum of 15 more encounters, which I'll try to push down to 10-12.
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I'm very much looking forward to Rise of the Runelords SE, although I'll have to adjust encounters upwards a lot, due to having six players and a 20 point buy as standard (although the latter with conditions attached, no base attribute before racials over 16, only one attribute under 10 and only down to an 8).
But, yes, I expect that AP to be much easier to adjudicate, especially since I have been an active player in it with my other group. We are still in book six and just spent one session basically just wandering around and trying to find a hidden path. Very much fun, really. No, not joking, we had a blast. :)
Okay. A couple of thoughts on RotRL. First, you can compensate for the stats by just adding +1 to every stat of every monster and encounter. In truth, that is a 25-point build but I don't see the problem with that.
Second, the first two books of Runelords are somewhat easy (up until Xanesha). So don't worry if the party seems to do fairly well going through that. There are ways to intensify the encounters even if they play easy in many ways.
And don't be surprised if after WotR the party ends up wiping early on because of being used to how easy things are with Mythic. ;)
Well, I can say that we didn't find the first two books before Xanesha so easy. Nualia almost wiped us completely when she ambushed us with her retinue at Thistletop after we tarried too long with other stuff in the location. It was very lucky that only my character was captured, the party Oracle had to be dragged away unconscious while the other two managed to escape.
Malfeshnekor also almost killed us on our first try. And other similar stuff happened.
I'll just have to see if I can compensate the six players and 20 point buy vs. the 4 players and 15 point buy I have with the group I am currently playing the AP with as a player.
I'll have to add monsters in any case, you can't just compensate a 50% increase in action economy with a +1. :)
Have you thought about simply keeping them on the Medium experience track instead of the planned Fast track of RotR (or the equivalent if you're not using XP)? That should keep them about one level below requirements after level 3-4 and could well compensate for you having 6 players with a 20-point buy.
Getting to high levels is one of the things my players enjoy, so I plan to keep them on the track they are. Also, one level less does not solve the action economy problem at all. I'll have to adjust the encounters with multiple opponents and I am still looking into solutions for the (not few) single opponent encounters Paizo still refuses to let go of.
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Session of November 11th 2014
All six players in attendance.
The session consisted about 50% of selling off loot, getting their reward from Ioemedae (The Samurai having been promoted to be her new herald) and then buying stuff, after leveling up their characters.
That being done, Drezen was attacked by the demon army. The party fought four mythic Nalfashnees (i.e. cannon fodder) and the combo of Zelmisdria and Axrivauxus in the tower, which ended quite poorly for the enemies shortly after the first round. The party then proceeded to fight Carrock and four Gallu demons in the courtyard, which again went quite poorly for the enemies. Carrock managed to pummel the Paladin deep into negative hitpoints, but again the Deathless spell prevented a dead character.
And that basically was it. If I don't sound too motivated, it is because the damage output of the party is so insane that hitpoints might as well not exist. If a critical hit happens, every enemy but a demon lords is one-hitted.
I tell you guys, I'll give myself some time when the AP ends for writing the review of it. Although it is not exactly the fault of the AP itself, the sloppyness of the design of Mythic Adventures deserves some condemnation. To say the least.
More condemnation?? :) I think we've been throwing dirt on this thing for months, err, years now. I hope that anyone and everyone knows what they're getting into with mythic.
And congratulations, you've almost made it.
Yeah, almost there. :-/
I think doing an post-mortem on the AP (i.e. a review) has to include the main reason why it will get a pretty terrible review from me. Also, it is a bit of catharsis. If the board rules would allow it, I'd probably go at like Spoony did with Ultima 9.
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I have been reading this thread since I started GMing WotR. My group is currently in Book 3, 4 players, 15 point buy. I think they are currently level 10 and MR 3, or somewhere thereabouts.
I have noticed that my NPCs are dropping quicker, but I cannot definitely put the finger on Mythic yet. The most demoralizing moment for me so far was in the Molten Scar, when the Oracle PC pulled off a Dismissal on Vorimeraak. I think I misplayed that because I should have had him burn a surge to up his saving throw, but still, that had nothing whatsoever to do with the player being mythic.
Other than that there haven't been too many cheesy moments yet. I attribute that to the number of players, and the fact that they are by no means an optimized party. The group comp is Paladin, Oracle, Ranger, Magus.
There have been a couple occasions where I had to ease up on them bit, both in Citadel/Dungeon Drezen. Specifically, the Vampire and the Nabasu. Both of them were doing lots of level drain, and the PCs did not yet have the ability to cure it.
TLDR: I feel like it's been balanced for the most part so far, still waiting to hit that tipping point.
Book three is actually where the ridiculousness really starts with the tier three path abilities. By now the party is level 18, tier 9, with way more than the corresponding WBL, due to the ridiculous amount of treasure which drops in this AP. I'm pretty sure that you'll notice the problem with keeping the group challenged as the AP progresses.
I will say this. While I've not yet had a huge problem with Mythic, some aspects of it have disrupted my Runelords game (which I added Mythic to). While the group only is at Tier 2, the Archmage ability to cast ANY spell at all? That's problematic.
For instance, it allows the Eldritch Knight to ignore his Opposition Schools to pull out a Dispel Magic when needed (though he did consider taking the ability to eliminate his opposition schools - he doesn't like the necromancy spells, but abjuration is actually useful).
The simpler solution ultimately isn't as much fun for the players: keep them to a lower tier. If my crew remains at Tier 2 maximum, and I don't allow Mythic Power Attack or the Mythic critical feat that's also broken, then Mythic shouldn't be a problem.
There is one other problem with Mythic - as the characters achieve higher and higher levels, the players end up with so many choices even without Mythic that they lose track of what they can do. Add Mythic to the mix... and you have a Mythic "Class" ability, Path abilities, Feats... a power pool you need to keep track of... and next thing you know, you have all these abilities you keep forgetting and several abilities that are so broken they only are fun for those gamers who enjoy one-sided battles.
When I run future campaigns, I'm not going to bother using Mythic. It has some interesting concepts, but I think Hero Points can be used to the same effect without breaking the game - and Mythic ultimately is a game-breaker, especially at higher tiers.
I'm trying a similar mechanic to Tangent101 in my mythic Way of the Wicked.
Since we are in a downtime period and pcs are just tier one, i'm testing their destructiveness using a dread ghost oracle that infest their new house ...
First meeting was able to knock down 2 pcs, scaring them for live, and was beaten when the 11 level antipaladin invoced on it asmodean vengeance.
Second meeting i tried a divide et impera strategy, by moving it freely between the first and second floor of the mantion. Player's answer was using mythic speed, which suprired me but allowed a really epic fight. However, they can already throw at it so much ...
I think i'll keep them under or at MT 4, and only if the develop the sidequest i'm giving them.
There is one other problem with Mythic - as the characters achieve higher and higher levels, the players end up with so many choices even without Mythic that they lose track of what they can do. Add Mythic to the mix... and you have a Mythic "Class" ability, Path abilities, Feats... a power pool you need to keep track of... and next thing you know, you have all these abilities you keep forgetting and several abilities that are so broken they only are fun for those gamers who enjoy one-sided battles.
Or they take the stuff which is always "on", like Precision, Fleet Warrior, Critical Mastery... hell, Critical Mastery is a talent which makes character management easier for the players, because they only need to calculate their maximum damage once, until it changes
Personally, I've yet to see that the party has forgotten a useful mythic ability they have taken.
Personally, I've yet to see that the party has forgotten a useful mythic ability they have taken.
While only in book 2, with PCs at lvl 6/2 (6 players so lagging a little behind on xp), I have two players who forget that their mythic abilities allow them to bypass DR. One is not a very experienced player, so I get that. The other is quite the cheese weasel (said fondly) ninja.
But yes, option paralysis is an issue and makes the fights drag on real time much longer than the 1-2 rounds of game time.
One thing we have discussed to help with the pace is when the damage dice number greater than six, just using an average damage total (hopefully precalculated).
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Well, one thing I can say for mythic is that it makes fights actually faster at high level. One crit, dead. ^^
^^ So THAT is how Indy took down the swordsman with one shot!
Yeah, there is probably a story we never heard about how that swordsman was a demigod come down to challenge Indy. :p
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Bah, reality is overrated.
I tend to agree with those that think that the AP itself was fine, but it was Mythic Adventures that caused the issues here. In fact, I think that the major issues the WotR AP had boil down to these two sentence from Mythic Adventures (paraphrased, since I don't have it in front of me):
-Add half the number of tiers to your character's level for calculating CR.
-Encounters should consist of 1/4 at the calculated party level, 1/4 at the party's original level, an 1/2 between the two.
These decisions were the reason that it felt like 2/3 of the Drezen dungeon was under-CR'ed, and why the once-daily fights in Adventure 3 were inevitably curbstomp battles. That alone isn't going to fix the high-level stuff going off the rails, but, from an adventure design standpoint, they could have at least avoided a lot of the pointless encounters by just changing one or both of those two design decisions.
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I have the Staunton Vhane fight coming up and right now I changed the Minotaurs out for 2 Thoxel demons with class levels. It is sitting at a CR 14 fight, I also gave SV 9 levels of AntiPaladin and 1 more mythic level. I know it seems like over kills but honestly my PCs aren't haveing much trouble hitting, they all have +15 or so to hit and I haven't gave them anything extra.
I didn't use the medals or the extra points from the first book.
You know your PCs best but keep in mind that he is a champion and can really dish out damage. He could easily drop any of the PCs in my group in one round. Also the fight could be more challenging if your group has any traitors with them, as mine had both of them.
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My group lost Nurah when they slipped into the room with the Mimics, Aron never fell because they found the stash before Nurah could plant it.
I may just take away the extra levels I gave SV. I guess I could play test it, plus they will already have fought his brother and the 3 Babaus a round or two before SV and his posse show up.
My PCs had both Nurah and the succubus tagging along with them when they met Vahne. I did change a feat around as he can't use his craft feat (a complaint I have about a few of the NPCs) and gave him mythic power attack.
But it depends on your group. For me smite + 2h weapon + power attack dropped three PCs. It was one of my PCs toughest fights.
Halberd is a pole-arm without reach if needed. But no, I didn't use it.
Session of November 18th 2014
Three players in attendance.
This week was two fights to clear out Derpface's Aponavicius lair. First face was against four Adv. Greater Apocalypse Locusts and Pyralisia, which ended with a quite lot of damage for the party and Pyralisia redeemed after 1 1/2 rounds and next against Aponavicius, Graveknight Staunton Vhane and a Devastator. All were Scorpions upgrades.
As always, the ridiculous damage output of the party, coupled with maximised and autoconfirmed critical hits made all the difference, although the second fight would have put the Barbarian and Paladin down quite nicely if it weren't for the Augmented Mythic Deathless spell. As soon as the party can bring their full firepower to bear on any group of opponents, it is over, unless we have outright unfair abilities like me adding the Swashbucklers parry option to Baphomet or autoreflect abilities.
Sorry that I'm not going through the fight on a more detailed basis, but it's pretty much the same as always. Foe-biter, legendary weapons, some magic ka-boom from the Sorcerer. At the very least now the Cleric can contribute some essential healing to the fights, by summoning Trumpet Archons. ^^
As for the opposition, they are also scary effective, but if they get one-shotted with a critical hit, it doesn't do them much good. I will say that Scorpions versions of the Devastastors could probably mulch every BBEG of every other AP.
Uh oh... you sound even more down about this. Going to try to wrap it all up next time? Or is that too much.
Nah, I just wasn't motivated to do an exact write-up of the fights yesterday, especially since the first one was by now such a routine fight that it really wasn't worth it (the summary above really does it justice enough) and the second one, although it had the element of having two player characters down for a nanosecond, also was over just too soon.
I am going to finish this campaign properly, quitting at this point would make no sense. Then I am going to write a long review, be active in that thread and then try to forget this AP and Mythic Adventures ever existed. At the very least I can look forward to Rise of the Runelords not sucking.
So, yeah, I am pretty down about this campaign, but not so much that I will scarp the campaign over that this late into it. Just don't expect the final fights to be anything where there is an actual challenge for the party.
Although I've decided that five days should be long enough and will cancel the methods for pushing the apocalypse date back. I suppose the group could do it in one day, if they put their minds to it, anyway.
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Yup. I'm hoping that less and less people talk about Mythic Adventures and it gets swept under the rug. Then we can all move on to something better.
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Indeed. Regular play from level 1-20 is interesting enough, IMO.
This thread has been quite scary for me. Fortunately, my party is still in book 1 (it's sad how much less you can get done in 4 hours when you have to play online), and is only 4 players. Plus, the cleric downgraded himself to warpriest (yes, one less person with 9th level spells to worry about!).
I may be shooting myself in the foot, but I'm not going to ditch mythic. I am looking at what I think will be a few relatively low-impact houserules to nip the worst problems mentioned here in the bud.
- No Mythic Improved Critical
- Remove the entire clause about crits from Mythic Power Attack
- No legendary items (or, at the absolute minimum, ban the Foebiter property)
- Remove that double damage on first attack clause from Smite Evil (a little less burst, a little less "oh, wait, I did 15 more damage that I forgot about")
- The ability boosts from Mythic are +1 to 2 different stats, rather than +2 to one stat.
- Eliminate all abilities that partially bypass DR (i.e. treat DR as 10 lower) - these are just a hassle.
- I'm pretty sure I'll make DR/epic impossible for the PCs to bypass.
That's my list so far, plus, of course, borrowing a lot of adjustments from this thread as I progress, and regularly chaining encounters in a dungeon together to avoid the "here's 2 dudes, you curbstomp them. In the next room are 2 more dudes, who you also curbstomp".
My good news is that the players do a decent bit of self-censorship, and will (aside from one player, who leans towards the Combat as War approach) prefer fights that are not horribly swingy, so if I need to adjust around that, they'll be up for it.
I don't want to give up on this - this is the first campaign, though not first game, that I've run, and the story is something we're all interested in. So house rules, preemptively, and as-needed.
what if you kept it mythic but instead insisted when combat begins, the blindfolds go on, at the very least it'd be fun to watch unfold:-D
Yeah, I'm with Krynn. Mythic will cause you way too many headaches, trust me.
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Session of November 25th 2014
Six players in attendance.
After some preliminaries for the next campaign, the party leveled up to lvl 19, distributed some loot and teleported to Iz, to the Yearning House. After their flimsy disguises being seen through immediately, they were invited in and had the "pleasure" of seeing scores of their Simulacrums servicing numerous demons in a lot of way. Ahem.
The Vrolikai teleported to Sister Perversion and was promptly dispatched by Nocticula. The party went to look what was up and had a nice chat with Nocticula, getting all the information they needed from her. Sister Perversion attacked afterwards, with the rest of the brothel staff joining her, which I happily skipped due to it being just a waste of time.
The party looted the location and used the Mirror of Mental Prowess to get to Mistress Anemora. I had added a Devastator (enhanced by Scorpion) to the fight and managed to hold off the party via better line of sight and quickened Wall of Stones and Blade Barriers for about two rounds. An Earthquake by the Cleric didn't really do much, since the oppposition was flying, but the combat ended quite decisively when the Paladin had the following round of combat:
Move to Devastator, eat one AoO for 56 damage (half of which ended up being temporary HP), hit the Devastator with a nat 20 for 506 damage, hit it again for 70 damage, hit it again with another critical hit, Devastator down. Amazing initiative for another move, another Amazing Initiative for another attack, nat 20, another Amazing Initiative for another attack, Mistress Anemora down.
Anticlimatic end for the fight, to say the least.
Oh, well. I think early January will be when RotRL starts, unless the holidays throw things off too much.
Hmmm, I don't think you can get more than 1 bonus action with amazing initiative... in fact "You can't gain an extra action in this way more than once per round."
That said, I banned the usage for amazing initiative to get extra actions (mythic haste too) since the action economy is so strongly in the hands of the PCs (7 of them) that they don't need any extras...
egads! 7!
good lord you're even more a glutton for punishment then Magnuskn:-P