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Wrath of the Righteous

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Scarab Sages

Piccolo Taphodarian wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
Piccolo Taphodarian wrote:
It certainly did. Oracles with Divine Protection have even higher saves than paladins. Of course a paladin needs strength and con. Whereas an oracle only needs con and cha.

Both of my oracles would strongly disagree with you.

Both have strength as their primary stat.

I'm sure your guys does ok. I'm talking high level optimized casting oracles. Not oracles attempting to be match martial types.

There are a lot of oracle builds, and not all of them care about Charisma past meeting casting requirements.


Well, usually, the 1,000 point damage thing is from someone charging with Spirited Charge on a Lance and getting a crit.

I mean, take a Paladin with 26 strength at level 12/~Tier 5 (26 strength at this point is low). He gets +8 modifier on strength, x1.5 for 2-handing a lance on a charge. Mythic Power Attack has a bonus of +12, 2-handing for +18. Smite damage for +12 (+24 on first hit against evil outsider). Spirited Charge with a Lance triples damage dealt. Foe Biter makes the enemy take double damage. Litany of Righteousness makes the enemy take double damage. A Critical also deals triple damage (quadruple with Mythic Improved Critical).

So, assuming a +3 weapon (conservative), the Paladin would deal 3d8+135 points of damage on a Spirited Charge with a Lance, Smite Evil and Mythic Power Attack. If he uses Litany of Righteousness, that's 6d8+270, if he tosses Foebiter on that, it would be 8d8+405 (because the monster taking double-double damage means he takes triple damage). If he crits... well that changes some things as Power Attack damage bonus goes from +18 to +36. So it's 9d8+567 on a Charge + Crit, and 18d8+1,134 on a Charge/Crit/Litany and 27d8+1,701 on a Charge/Crit/Litany+Foebiter.

You don't even have to be a Paladin to do that, a Cavalier can hit the same numbers except for the Charge/Crit/Litany+Foebiter as he doesn't benefit from Litany of Righteousness.

[Edit] Also, if the PCs want to ensure a similar level of damage, they have a reliable character who can crit fish well, like a TWF Ranger, who uses Butterfly Sting to transfer a Crti to the Paladin/Cavalier. Guarantees a Crit on the Charge.


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If thats the case I think I see the issue (Lance charging Paladins on Synthesist summoners is an issue in another game I run but not this one) I never multiply multipliers, this may be an inadvertent house rule. So I was getting
Crit *3 (*2 weapon with mythic improved crit)
*4 Foebiter
*5 Litany of righteousness
I was also not using the multiplier for lance/spirited charge as that's not one I will face in this campaign. Which would take me up to *7 on the initial damage.
This is still a lot, and requires massive increase of NPC hit points

edit
I also had a butterfly stinging ranger setting up my lance charging sysnthesist summoner riding Paladin until I killed off the Ranger again in another campaign


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

I find the best way around this is to modify the Critical Rules (which is one big thing which is broken in Pathfinder).

If you roll a critical, you auto-confirm. You then do full damage multiplied by half of the critical modifier.

My other suggestion is to treat Critical Hits as non-Mythic Vital Strike. The ONLY thing multiplied is the number of weapon dice. So you could have a Paladin with all of those litanies, criticals, and charging bonuses and be doing 18d8+135 damage. Nasty, but not to the level of silliness shown above.


Tangent101 wrote:

I find the best way around this is to modify the Critical Rules (which is one big thing which is broken in Pathfinder).

If you roll a critical, you auto-confirm. You then do full damage multiplied by half of the critical modifier.

My other suggestion is to treat Critical Hits as non-Mythic Vital Strike. The ONLY thing multiplied is the number of weapon dice. So you could have a Paladin with all of those litanies, criticals, and charging bonuses and be doing 18d8+135 damage. Nasty, but not to the level of silliness shown above.

Pfft... Silly? Was it Silly when the Paladin charged across the battlefield and dealt 75% of his max damage on that CR 3 Imp (he was an Imp with a level of Sorcerer, truly, a most heinous fiend!) totaling ~2,000 points of damage and splattering him to a mist so fine that even the most powerful of Discern Location spells couldn't locate his remains? I think not. It was totally justified and not at all over-compensation!

:D

(It is, just a tiny bit absurd though)


Artanthos wrote:
Piccolo Taphodarian wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
Piccolo Taphodarian wrote:
It certainly did. Oracles with Divine Protection have even higher saves than paladins. Of course a paladin needs strength and con. Whereas an oracle only needs con and cha.

Both of my oracles would strongly disagree with you.

Both have strength as their primary stat.

I'm sure your guys does ok. I'm talking high level optimized casting oracles. Not oracles attempting to be match martial types.
There are a lot of oracle builds, and not all of them care about Charisma past meeting casting requirements.

True.

Group oracle is trying holy destroyer. Maxing charisma and focusing on holy word. I've been wanting to see how this works for a while. Should be absolutely vicious in mythic.


You don't multiply multipliers. Multipliers are additive in Pathfinder.

So it would work like this:

Spirited Charge: x3
Lance Crit: x3 (add 2 to previous modifier)
Foe-Biter Crit: x2 (add 1 for two uses of mythic power)
Litany: x 2 (add 1)
Mythic Improved Crit: add 1 to multiplier and 1 to overall all multiplier.
Double power attack.

Paladin example would be: 1d8+12 str +12 smite +36 Mythic Power Attack crit +3 lance= 1d8+45 x 8

8d8+504 is that lance hit.

Once you understand how multipliers are additive, not multiplicative in Pathfinder, your numbers come down some.

I read Foe-Biter. It does not change this multiplier guideline, even on a crit. It does not say "double damage then apply crit multiplier." I'm going to run it according to the multiplier guideline from the core rulebook.

Mythic did not change this rule:

Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.

Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied.

Still very nasty. But not quite as nasty as not following this guideline.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

You could consider the mythic vital strike chain in there if you want higher numbers.


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Actually it was 508 damage at lvl 13/ tier 6. I don't have the exact stats before me, but let's see if I can recreate the hit.

Stats: STR 22, CHA 29 (Including Anarchic Gift and Iomedae's Favor).

Weapon: Legendary Holy Avenger with Foe-Biter.

Feats: Mythic Power Attack, Mythic Improved Critical.
Path Abilities: Fleet Warrior, Critical Mastery

Base Damage: 1d8+6+2d6

Additional damage:

Mythic PA: +12
Smite Evil: +13

Mythic Critical Hit: 24(3d8) + 18 (STR) + 78 (Smite Evil first hit on an undead/dragon) + 72 (Mythic PA, doubled on a crit before the multiplier) + 12 (Holy) = 204 damage x2 (Foe Biter) = 408 damage.

Hmmm, either I am missing something or he was off by a 100 points. :-/ Well, not that it mattered on this encounter, since it still would have one-shotted both Kestoglyr and Melazmera (also the latter already had eaten 150 damage from the archer), but at least it would keep the numbers a bit down.

Could also be that the other damage is hidden in some buff or item I had not taken into account.


magnuskn wrote:

Actually it was 508 damage at lvl 13/ tier 6. I don't have the exact stats before me, but let's see if I can recreate the hit.

Stats: STR 22, CHA 29 (Including Anarchic Gift and Iomedae's Favor).

Weapon: Legendary Holy Avenger with Foe-Biter.

Feats: Mythic Power Attack, Mythic Improved Critical.
Path Abilities: Fleet Warrior, Critical Mastery

Base Damage: 1d8+6+2d6

Additional damage:

Mythic PA: +12
Smite Evil: +13

Mythic Critical Hit: 24(3d8) + 18 (STR) + 78 (Smite Evil first hit on an undead/dragon) + 72 (Mythic PA, doubled on a crit before the multiplier) + 12 (Holy) = 204 damage x2 (Foe Biter) = 408 damage.

Hmmm, either I am missing something or he was off by a 100 points. :-/ Well, not that it mattered on this encounter, since it still would have one-shotted both Kestoglyr and Melazmera (also the latter already had eaten 150 damage from the archer), but at least it would keep the numbers a bit down.

Could also be that the other damage is hidden in some buff or item I had not taken into account.

You doubled everything from Foe-Biter? I don't plan to do that. I will follow the multiplier rule. Foe-Biter will be like adding another multiple to a crit. There was nothing in Foe-Biter that appeared to override that rule.


Seannoss wrote:
You could consider the mythic vital strike chain in there if you want higher numbers.

That would boost the multiple to x 11. Very nasty. You could definitely build a crazy damage cavalier with mythic rules that one shots everything including demon lords.

Demon lord pops out, cavalier charges him with Supreme Charge Mythic Vital Strike after challenging him.

What would that be?

Spirited Charge: x3
Greater Vital Strike: x3
Supreme Charge: x 3
Foe-Biter: x 2

Without critting you're at a x8 multiple.

1d8+20 challenge +12 str +54 power attack +5 weapon=1d8+91

Cavalier without crit charging 8d8+728

If the cavalier crits, well, if they ever give gods hit points, I imagine even they will die.

So basically the cavalier would kill demon lords and empyreal lords without critting with every charge. And he gets to use Fleet Charge if he is a champion. No amount of healing would match it. Either you stop his charge or you die, even if he doesn't crit.

That's why I have to chuckle at folks that think giving 4000 hit points is all that much. It really isn't. Player options far outstrip enemy hit points, even for creatures 7 to 10 CR above you at level 20.


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you're assuming a demon lord is stupid enough to get charged tho:)


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I suspect most people here would hate how I used to run demons and devils in my 2nd edition AD&D game (the group never faced outsiders in 3rd edition that teleported seeing none of the games continued to the point of Night Below - I was suffering from burnout)

Teleport Without Error was what would now be an Immediate Ability. More powerful Outsiders could do a Teleport Spring Attack.

That said, one of the players had a blood magic spell (ie, it cost him hit points to cast) reminiscent of "Ragnablade" from the anime Slayers - a blade that could pierce the dimensional fold and follow a demon or devil after it teleported.

It was a fun campaign. I incorporated many different things into it, including blood magic from the Valdemar series of books, demonic teleportation like from Slayers, a couple Slayers-style spells, having only a couple priesthoods with significant healing magic (similar to the Aes Sedai from Wheel of Time), and so forth.

Silver Crusade

Tangent101 wrote:

I suspect most people here would hate how I used to run demons and devils in my 2nd edition AD&D game (the group never faced outsiders in 3rd edition that teleported seeing none of the games continued to the point of Night Below - I was suffering from burnout)

Teleport Without Error was what would now be an Immediate Ability. More powerful Outsiders could do a Teleport Spring Attack.

That said, one of the players had a blood magic spell (ie, it cost him hit points to cast) reminiscent of "Ragnablade" from the anime Slayers - a blade that could pierce the dimensional fold and follow a demon or devil after it teleported.

It was a fun campaign. I incorporated many different things into it, including blood magic from the Valdemar series of books, demonic teleportation like from Slayers, a couple Slayers-style spells, having only a couple priesthoods with significant healing magic (similar to the Aes Sedai from Wheel of Time), and so forth.

Thumbs up for the wonderful Slayers reference^^

captain yesterday wrote:
you're assuming a demon lord is stupid enough to get charged tho:)

Yup that is pretty much a shorter description of the demons tactics - stupid.


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Piccolo Taphodarian wrote:
You doubled everything from Foe-Biter? I don't plan to do that. I will follow the multiplier rule. Foe-Biter will be like adding another multiple to a crit. There was nothing in Foe-Biter that appeared to override that rule.

The wording is pretty clear. "When this item deals damage, its user can use mythic power to double the total amount of damage it deals. If the attack is a normal attack, the bearer can expend one use of legendary power to double the total amount of damage. If the attack is a confirmed critical hit, the bearer must instead expend two uses of legendary power to double the total damage. Damage from weapon special abilities (such as flaming) and precision-based damage are also doubled."

That implies that all damage is doubled and not just multiplied like on a crit or with certain feats. Just like Smite Evil damage is doubled against undead/evil outsiders/evil dragons on the first hit. Since damage sources like precision damage and weapon special abilities, which normally are not multiplied on a critical hit, are also doubled, the wording indicates that this is a separate kind of enhancing damage than the normal rules for critical hits.

I may not like it, but those are the rules. Blame the developers for that.


captain yesterday wrote:
you're assuming a demon lord is stupid enough to get charged tho:)

Why would a demon lord assume a mortal could harm him? He might very well step out thinking he was virtually immune to Mr. Mortal Cavalier.

Surprise, you're dead! All the demons watching their lord are saying, "Well damn, I guess that Cavalier is in charge now." He's the new Demon Lord of the plane.


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Piccolo Taphodarian wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
you're assuming a demon lord is stupid enough to get charged tho:)

Why would a demon lord assume a mortal could harm him? He might very well step out thinking he was virtually immune to Mr. Mortal Cavalier.

Surprise, you're dead! All the demons watching their lord are saying, "Well damn, I guess that Cavalier is in charge now." He's the new Demon Lord of the plane.

You'd think that after watching these guys carve their way through this corner of the Abyss, he'd be a little more cautious. And yes, I can't logically see him NOT watching these guys.


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magnuskn wrote:
Piccolo Taphodarian wrote:
You doubled everything from Foe-Biter? I don't plan to do that. I will follow the multiplier rule. Foe-Biter will be like adding another multiple to a crit. There was nothing in Foe-Biter that appeared to override that rule.

The wording is pretty clear. "When this item deals damage, its user can use mythic power to double the total amount of damage it deals. If the attack is a normal attack, the bearer can expend one use of legendary power to double the total amount of damage. If the attack is a confirmed critical hit, the bearer must instead expend two uses of legendary power to double the total damage. Damage from weapon special abilities (such as flaming) and precision-based damage are also doubled."

That implies that all damage is doubled and not just multiplied like on a crit or with certain feats. Just like Smite Evil damage is doubled against undead/evil outsiders/evil dragons on the first hit. Since damage sources like precision damage and weapon special abilities, which normally are not multiplied on a critical hit, are also doubled, the wording indicates that this is a separate kind of enhancing damage than the normal rules for critical hits.

I may not like it, but those are the rules. Blame the developers for that.

Total damage in Pathfinder has no meaning. Double damage has meaning. The same wording is used for every double damage ability in the game. If they intend it to be doubled prior to applying the critical multiplier, they will write it like Mythic Power Attack. That feat specifically says double the damage before applying crit modifier.

If it does not say that, then the specific rule concerning multipliers applies.

Double damage or any multiplier is additive, unless it says otherwise. That is the specific rule. It overrides feats like Spirited Charge, class abilities like Supreme Charge, and even Legendary Items like Foe-Biter.

This is how you write it if you want to use the rule as you are applying it:

Power Attack (Mythic)

Your attacks are truly devastating.

Prerequisite: Power Attack.

Benefit: When you use Power Attack, you gain a +3 bonus on melee damage rolls instead of +2. When your base attack bonus reaches +4 and every 4 points thereafter, the amount of bonus damage increases by +3 instead of +2. In addition, the bonus damage from this feat is doubled on a critical hit, before it's multiplied by the weapon's critical multiplier.

You can expend one use of mythic power when you activate Power Attack to ignore the penalties on melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks for 1 minute

That text is not part of Foe-Biter. So I will not apply it. I always look for specific language and the meaning in the context of the game. When text leaves out "double damage before applying critical multiplier", I feel the intent that you use the multiplier rules is clear. That rule is meant to keep things like Spirited Charge and Mythic Vital Strike and Foe-biter from doing as much damage as you're experiencing. I would use it if I were you. It is the specific rule for multipliers to tone down some of these nutty combinations.

Though I do agree that they may have intended it to double overall damage and that you could probably read it either way. But this is one of those situations I'm going to adjudicate in favor of the DM.


Orthos wrote:
Piccolo Taphodarian wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
you're assuming a demon lord is stupid enough to get charged tho:)

Why would a demon lord assume a mortal could harm him? He might very well step out thinking he was virtually immune to Mr. Mortal Cavalier.

Surprise, you're dead! All the demons watching their lord are saying, "Well damn, I guess that Cavalier is in charge now." He's the new Demon Lord of the plane.

You'd think that after watching these guys carve their way through this corner of the Abyss, he'd be a little more cautious. And yes, I can't logically see him NOT watching these guys.

How many different heroes has a demon lord watched carve through his hordes of demons over his existence only to kill them easily when they get to him?

Carving through lower minions means nothing to a demon lord. Killing demons is easy. Killing a demon lord is far more difficult. I don't think he would even care that much. The only time he might care is they are carrying a weapon known to be capable of killing him.

I don't see any reason whatsoever he wouldn't fight them openly. What is he doing to do anyway? Try to hide? Make him last may three rounds longer depending on how long he avoids their attacks. Eventually he will get charged, eventually he will die in one hit.

How cool is it that Mr. Demon Lord has to hide from Mr. Cavalier because Mr. Cavalier can kill him in one hit without a crit? Does that seem very Demon Lord-like to you?


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Demon lords maybe chaotic evil but they arent stupid (unless the GM uses stupid tactics, like letting anyone charge him, mortal or otherwise) they didnt become demon lords by hosting tea parties after all:)

but to each their own, if its fun for your party to charge stupid demon lords then more power to you, i'd never run it that way myself:)


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Yes. I prefer my BBEGs to be much, much more tactically savvy than that, and to have read the Evil Overlord List a few times and actually paid attention to what it says.

I'd say the REASON he killed them easily after they carved their way through his hordes is because the Demon Lord LEARNED about the enemy, learned their tactics, learned their weaknesses, and EXPLOITED THE HELL OUT OF THEM when they finally met. Not just stood there laughing and betting they couldn't lay a scratch on him.

We'll have to disagree on this.

And ninja'd by the Captain. Yeah also what he said.


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really at higher levels the pressure is less on the system and more on the GM, by the time everyone is 18th-19th level and sqauring off with demon lords and ancient dragons the GM should have a greater idea on what their tactics are and should adjust, if someone has coked up initiative, give the enemy copious amounts of coke initiative, if someone is a raging barbarian with an Axe give the monster uber AC,or as Tels put it so super awesomely C.H.E.A.T.
:)

edit: he might've said that in another thread but i'm not going to try to link it:)


I always like savvy play. It is not fun to have demon lords killed that easy. I would boost his hit points by a few thousand to prevent this. Make no mistake about it.

If I'm playing in a campaign where the DM is trying to play Mr. Demon Lord intelligently without boosting his hit points and the like, I'll probably mind blank and invis the cavalier so he can't be detected by true seeing. Try to lure the demon into charge range, let my cavalier nuclear missile launch. Demon Lord dead.

My entire party strategy would be built on launching my cavalier missile. My other PCs would set up that objective. Why? Because the cavalier missile is too good. It kills everything it hits regardless of DR or anything else.

That in my experience is how players think. Take something overpowered and build around it. The DM has to figure out how to counter that strategy and still make his monsters seem like what they are.

That is the crux of the difference in viewpoints. I see Demon Lords as being so powerful they are used to completely overpowering everything they fight, especially mortals. Others see the Demon Lords sitting around talking about "That cavalier that charges. Gotta watch out for him." They share strategies about how to deal with the Cavalier Nuclear Missile. Even though the cavalier nuclear missilet is more a creation of the absurd rules in Pathfinder and Mythic rather than something interesting in a book or story.

I hate these types of creations. They are the bane of good story-telling. Full on exploitation of the rules meant to do something absurd like kill a Demon Lord in one hit in six seconds the firs time he shows himself in combat. Yet the game developers allowed the creation of this combination.


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arrogance only goes so far, eventually intelligence will win out, demon lords are both arrogant and intelligent, i simply cant believe they'll be sooo arrogant as to be caught unawares.

demon lords dont have tea parties:)

personally i'd have said demon lord teleport next to said missle cavalier and kill his mount while his Balor generals rip the now useless missle into little tiny pieces, all while the rest of the party is 60 feet away because the stupid missle cavalier neeeded a running start so he hung back
problem solved, missle cavalier dead:)


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Seeing this is a Demon Lord and this is his plane, I could easily see the Demon Lord able to manipulate that plane to act much like the final building in Runelords when you have "weak points" where Karzoug can appear before the heroes.

So have him create a weak point in his plane, project an image through it, and attack the Mythic Party through summons and magic. It's in character, and also keeps the Demon Lord safe from permanent death - especially as he doesn't know if a certain Demon Lord renown for killing off other Demon Lords might have subverted a couple of the characters, and is looking to add a new island to her domain.

He's not stupid. Don't play him as such.


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Piccolo Taphodarian wrote:
If it does not say that, then the specific rule concerning multipliers applies.

That is word parsing and has no corroborating evidence in prior rules. The part alone which allows you to double damage from weapon special abilities and precision damage overrides normal rules concerning critical hits, not even to mention that normal rules always talk about multipliers, not doubling total damage.

I have to rule in favor of the literal text, not try to parse around it with maybe's and could be's.


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Tangent101 wrote:

Seeing this is a Demon Lord and this is his plane, I could easily see the Demon Lord able to manipulate that plane to act much like the final building in Runelords when you have "weak points" where Karzoug can appear before the heroes.

So have him create a weak point in his plane, project an image through it, and attack the Mythic Party through summons and magic. It's in character, and also keeps the Demon Lord safe from permanent death - especially as he doesn't know if a certain Demon Lord renown for killing off other Demon Lords might have subverted a couple of the characters, and is looking to add a new island to her domain.

He's not stupid. Don't play him as such.

OTOH, playing him like the AP expects gives me a reason to complain about WTH the author was thinking when he wrote down those tactics. :p And I got a serious case of "Whatever, get it over with" going on about this AP by now. -.-


magnuskn wrote:
Piccolo Taphodarian wrote:
If it does not say that, then the specific rule concerning multipliers applies.

That is word parsing and has no corroborating evidence in prior rules. The part alone which allows you to double damage from weapon special abilities and precision damage overrides normal rules concerning critical hits, not even to mention that normal rules always talk about multipliers, not doubling total damage.

I have to rule in favor of the literal text, not try to parse around it with maybe's and could be's.

Not true. It is the rule. It has all the corroborating evidence of a rule. Not sure what you're talking about there. It specifically talks about abilities that multiply damage...all such abilities...all of them unless otherwise stated...which is the only way you can boost damage multipliers beyond listed for the weapon.

Why even include the multiplier rule if it does not apply to all such abilities that increase damage beyond the normal critical multipliers? Explain why the developers would include such a rule if they did not intend it to apply to every such ability such as Spirited Charge and Foe-biter? I would like to hear your corroborating evidence from the books.

Ruling in favor of the literal text of an ability does not supersede the specific rule for multipliers for every ability that increases damage multipliers. I have to disagree. The multiplier rule is specific and applies to every ability like Foe-Biter or Spirited Charge. The feats are non-specific and use general language used for all such fats. They are overridden by the multiplier rule.

That is not word parsing at all. Otherwise, explain what the point of the multiplier rule is?

Scarab Sages

captain yesterday wrote:
you're assuming a demon lord is stupid enough to get charged tho:)

Given the set-ups used in WoTR, yes.

Unless the GM modifies those as well.


magnuskn wrote:
Tangent101 wrote:

Seeing this is a Demon Lord and this is his plane, I could easily see the Demon Lord able to manipulate that plane to act much like the final building in Runelords when you have "weak points" where Karzoug can appear before the heroes.

So have him create a weak point in his plane, project an image through it, and attack the Mythic Party through summons and magic. It's in character, and also keeps the Demon Lord safe from permanent death - especially as he doesn't know if a certain Demon Lord renown for killing off other Demon Lords might have subverted a couple of the characters, and is looking to add a new island to her domain.

He's not stupid. Don't play him as such.

OTOH, playing him like the AP expects gives me a reason to complain about WTH the author was thinking when he wrote down those tactics. :p And I got a serious case of "Whatever, get it over with" going on about this AP by now. -.-

I didn't want to mention it because of spoilers. That is exactly how they recommend you play the Demon Lord in the series. He shows up and acts like a strong demon lord should. No hiding or anything of the kind. He looks to kill you.

Sadly for him. Charge. Dead. Poor demon lord.


After doing more reading, I sure am glad no one is playing a mythic ninja. That would be a damn nightmare. Mythic ninja with invisibility, legendary weapon with Foe-biter and undetectable, precision critical, and Fleet Charge. That would be annoying.


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Might I point out that GMs are also told to modify them to suit their party. If the party is one that is overpowered and will eat this encounter without breaking a sweat? Modify it so they don't.

This is a demigod in his own domain. Have the walls start crushing in on them and look like the imprint of a gigantic hand crushing the walls. They flee so to avoid being crushed alive (especially if the way out is the first part crushed shut).

There are plenty of ways of doing this dramatically while not having a demon lord that isn't stupid being a pushover.


Tangent101 wrote:

Might I point out that GMs are also told to modify them to suit their party. If the party is one that is overpowered and will eat this encounter without breaking a sweat? Modify it so they don't.

This is a demigod in his own domain. Have the walls start crushing in on them and look like the imprint of a gigantic hand crushing the walls. They flee so to avoid being crushed alive (especially if the way out is the first part crushed shut).

There are plenty of ways of doing this dramatically while not having a demon lord that isn't stupid being a pushover.

The word modify. I do use it a lot as well.

You wish the game developers would make it so I didn't have to modify so much. I feel like I'm doing their job and not getting paid.


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come on now! tactics are the first thing that should be changed to account for your players

if your party has a paladin/cavalier on a mount itching to depose a demon lord there is no reason whatsoever he would show up 60 feet away from the cavalier, spend a round cackling madly then start to fight, c'mon!


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*headdesk* We've come back to the exact same point where this conversation started.

I'm out. I'm not riding this merry-go-round again.


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would it help if i sang a merry tune:)
maybe deck an unruly carnie or two:)


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Yup, in short... play smart. Be immune to the PCs most used tactics and spells. He has control over his domain, make everything difficult terrain or use illusions on that cavalier.

Although I do agree with you. There was far too much modification for this AP. I got tired of working for hours on stuff that only lasted 1-2 rounds.


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Piccolo Taphodarian wrote:
all of them unless otherwise stated

And there is the rub. It does state otherwise. Total damage. All abilities are doubled. This is not the same as normal damage multiplication by critical hit, hence it is doubled after the critical hit. The language is crystal clear.

Silver Crusade

Piccolo Taphodarian wrote:
After doing more reading, I sure am glad no one is playing a mythic ninja. That would be a damn nightmare. Mythic ninja with invisibility, legendary weapon with Foe-biter and undetectable, precision critical, and Fleet Charge. That would be annoying.

Halfling ninja with Titans bane is ... oh just look it up it is... and consider that reduce person is a level 1 spell.


magnuskn wrote:
Piccolo Taphodarian wrote:
all of them unless otherwise stated
And there is the rub. It does state otherwise. Total damage. All abilities are doubled. This is not the same as normal damage multiplication by critical hit, hence it is doubled after the critical hit. The language is crystal clear.

What is the difference in double total damage and double damage? Nothing. "Total" has no meaning in Pathfinder. In fact, it has no meaningful difference in the English language. If you were to say "double damage" and "double total damage", you would be saying exactly the same thing absent clarifying language to indicate what the differences were. That language does not exist. Thus you cannot claim it is crystal clear. It is solely your interpretation.

The clarity is like many abilities in Pathfinder. You are choosing to make "total damage" mean something more significant than "damage" because you believed that was the intent of the ability. Your reasoning is one says "total" whereas the other implies "total, all, everythying, etc." For some reason, that means something different to you.

It would have been easy for them to include language indicating damage should be doubled after applying the critical modifier, but they didn't. Using the word "total", a meaningless word in Pathfinder, doesn't change that.

It is no different than many other abilities where the meaningful language of the ability is contradicted by other rules with no clear explanation given due to lazy rules writing. Which there is a whole lot of in Pathfinder.

Run it as you wish. I won't fault you given how many abilities are written in an ambiguous manner and contradicted by other rules in other books. But I don't think I will unless I receive clarity from the developers. Given how long it takes them to clarify things, I doubt I will anytime soon.

Either way. This discussion has reached an impasse. You believe one interpretation. I believe the other. We will both run it the way we want. Either way, it's the difference between a horrible nightmare (my interpretation) and an epically horrible nightmare (your interpretation).

Mythic Adventures is a massive disappointment. After I am done running Wrath of the Righteous, I'm probably quitting Pathfinder. I won't purchase another book from them as I feel their game has jumped the shark. They have created an environment where I must parse the game to limit over-powered, easily obtainable combinations that make DMing the game unsatisfying and tiring as well as creating an argumentative environment with my players.

At the moment it is impossible to challenge PCs without going way beyond the rule set to do so. I have no idea why these games always reach this point, but they always seem to. Pathfinder is now at that point where it is just a giant power-gaming rule set for players that want to rip everything apart with ease as they claim "system mastery", when the real cause is "poorly designed, easily exploited rule design."


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Piccolo Taphodarian wrote:
What is the difference in double total damage and double damage? Nothing. "Total" has no meaning in Pathfinder. In fact, it has no meaningful difference in the English language. If you were to say "double damage" and "double total damage", you would be saying exactly the same thing absent clarifying language to indicate what the differences were. That language does not exist. Thus you cannot claim it is crystal clear. It is solely your interpretation.

The difference, as I pointed out multiple times already, is that you double every source damage with Foebiting. Which is not done on critical hits, there you only double the fixed bonuses and the weapon die. Weapon special abilities and precision damage (outside of the Duelist, I think) are not doubled or tripled or quadrupled on a crit.

Hence, Foebiting is working on a different level than normal critical hit multipliers. It also works for doubling damage on a non-critical hit and works there in the exact same way it would work on a critical hit. The price you pay for doubling the critical hit is the additional mythic power.

Is it overpowered BS? Yes. But it's the way the rule works. I am actually willing to let it work that way to get this AP out of the way as soon as possible at this point, because I've basically given up on presenting a challenge. I'm mentally down to closing the AP in 16 encounters, beginning next Tuesday. Big, epic encounters, but only 16 or less nonetheless.

After that, it's homebrewn time for the next year and a half, with the addition of Rasputin Must Die! (which is basically the best AP module Paizo has ever published. Big props to Brandon Hodge, who is keenly missed in the AP line.).

Liberty's Edge

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Halfling ninja with Titans bane is ... oh just look it up it is... and consider that reduce person is a level 1 spell.

Which is what happened in my test campaign - halfling ninja would spend the first action in combat to move into the BBEG's square and full attack. The hardest fights in the game were against oozes and various other immune to crit/sneak attack critters. The end bosses of books 5 and 6 both died before they had the chance to act.


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Magnuskn,
you should do The Dead Heart of Xin after Rasputin Must Die! that should get you all fired up again

and i totally agree we need more Brandon Hodges like yesterday:)


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captain yesterday wrote:

Magnuskn,

you should do The Dead Heart of Xin after Rasputin Must Die! that should get you all fired up again

and i totally agree we need more Brandon Hodges like yesterday:)

Although that module is very good, too, it wouldn't fit thematically and I might want to run Shattered Star by itself one day, contrary to Reign of Winter.


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Session of September 17th 2014:

Five players in attendance. Player six (Paladin) down with the flu. I myself almost got a cough two days ago but it seems to have passed.

The party traveled up the river on Colyphyr, disintegrating the (abandoned) gate on the way. After arriving at the mine, the Omox demon there introduced herself and gave them all her treasure for getting rid of the other inhabitants of the caves. Since Melazmera already was dead, the party looted her hoard and let the Abyssal Harvester live, since he pleaded for his life with them (seriously, can you blame the poor monster, after seeing them destroy the opposition last week?).

The party descended into the next level and found it abandoned, save for the human sacrifices. The monsters had retreated to the mine below, to mass for an all-out assault on the party. After looting generously all the accumulated treasure and making the freed captives comfortable, the party descended via Mass Fly the last 200 feet into the mine proper.

I had replaced all the useless normal demons with the mythic Minotaur Miners Scorpion so graciously provided in his statblock document. Hepzamirah also was his upgraded version.

The party put all of them down, but it was somewhat of a struggle. The Sorcerer escaped by a hair's breath being critted for 400+ damage by a Mythic Improved Vital Strike, which could have turned the entire encounter by itself. Since he wasn't, he only ate 200+ damage from the two regular hits he got and survived.

His use of the Deathless spell prevented two more deaths (Hepzamirah is a fricking beast) and the minotaurs really didn't live long enough to do much more of their shtick. The rest of the adventure proceeded as in the module.

The party now has advanced to level 15/tier 7 and next week probably half the time will be spent leveling up, selling loot and getting new equipment.

Meanwhile, I still got to get going on writing the new campaign. Since I have a new full-time job, there is little time, especially with the other stuff I am doing aside (reading about politics, watching anime, reading books, comics, watching vlogs of some internet personalities and also playing a few PC games). Oh, well, I'll just have to make time. :p

Silver Crusade

Congratulation on the new job, and don't worry others have the same distractions.

Btw have you had any interaction with sunder in your game? Those high damage numbers could potentially destroy items with ease.

I like that your players use the deathless spell, it could also be used by the enemies^^


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Yeah, I probably should try that with Deathless.

Sunder is banned at my table, always has been. It causes too much problems.

And thanks for the good wishes on the new job. :)


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Session of September 23rd 2014:

Six players in attendance.

The session pretty much was what I expected it to be last week. The aftermath of the finale of last week, leveling up, selling loot and getting new equipment. The encounter with Iomedae also fit into it and it went pretty well. Nobody was out of line, so I did not have to even think about how to handle disrespectful PC's. OTOH, it was a bit less than I hoped for with the Cleric and Ranger, who are both children of Iomedae, but if the players don't bite, then I can't do much about it.

Anyway, the party is well equipped and will get into the Ivory Labyrinth next week. That's a bit to prepare, to give them one interesting encounter and see if they go exploring a bit or head directly for Blackburgh.

And it seems that the next campaign has aquired an Investigator, which now makes the party Investigator, Urban Ranger, Slayer, Inquisitor and Bard. Quite the skillful party. ^^ I'll have to work to get player six (the current Samurai) to decide soon and work on a decent character background, or he'll just slop one character onto the stage on the day we start the campaign. Ah, well, the perils of being DM, I guess. ^^


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Session of September 30th 2014:

Sorry for the delay, I had a night shift and thus just got out of bed an hour ago. Basically the night shift began one hour after we finished our session yesterday.

Six players in attendance, although one player left before the other arrived. I am beginning to have serious doubts about that first player contributing anything to the group, given that by now he has stated that he intends now to continue to leave 1 1/2 hours into the session forever and he is the person who contributes the least to roleplaying, too. Since he is a friend, it is not really doable to just tell him to stop coming, but his being here not only helps make a campaign harder to balance (six players), it also doesn't contribute anything to the group. Really a bad position to be in. :-/

Anyway, the group used the tokens given by Iomedae to teleport to the Ivory Labyrinth and met Odeenka and four Baphomet Golems (Scorpions Upgrades). While the golems inflicted pretty heavy damage, Odeenka just disintegrated by a crit from the Samurai, for 618 damage (double Critical Master path talent). And, yes, that damage was what we calculated together. The Sorcerer cast Reverse Gravity on the three restant Golems and the Ranger just destroyed one of them in one round. I called the encounter after that, given how they could barely catch the party before being destroyed.

The party afterwards teleported to Blackburgh and, after having a few off-screen encounters with normal demons ("You win, let's continue with the plot") were invited to meet Verbezzovor by one of his swarm. He pointed them towards Orengofta, who in turn gave them the information about where to find the Father of Worms. The party set out to the Lightless Maze and spent 18 days there navigating the tunnels (with further "You win" random encounters). After finally getting to the cave containing the Father of Worms (again, upgraded), they were confronted by him. He had better senses to detect them than they did, so he opened with a readied Mythic Finger of Death, which sadly was resisted by the scouting Ranger. The Ranger retaliated with a salvo which took off about 30% of his HP and since he rolled high on initiative, he got off a Wail of the Banshee and after that burrowed underground, to heal up somewhat with Channel Energy. After noting that he would not heal up to full HP even with five times 9d6, I waited until a good moment and surfaced near the Barbarian and Samurai. The round went: Mass Hold Monster, Quickened Cone of Cold, Amazing Initiative: Breath Weapon, Amazing Initiative: Greater Vital Strike on the Samurai, Fast Swallow, Samurai digested. Burp.

The Father of Worms was pretty comprehensively destroyed after that, which was especially funny since the Cleric cast Destruction on him as the last attack... meaning that he destroyed the entire body of the Father of Worms completely, meaning no blood. Which is why they had come here in the first place. Ooops.

The Samurai was True Ressurected from a scroll they found last module and I ruled that his gear had survived being swallowed. The party returned to Orengofta, who, after facepalming at the Cleric, suggested that he could take them prisoner and deliver them per hand to the Ineluctable Prison. I had to point out the spell Secret Chest before they accepted that, but next session will begin with them spending 6d6 days traveling in cages to the prison in their underwear. ^^


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Session of October 07th 2014:

Sorry for the delay, I am coming off another double night-shift and just got out of bed here in Germany, where it is 05:00 p.m. already. Ooof.

Anyway, five players in attendance. No combat this session, the party argued for an hour if they were going to take Orengofta up on his offer to transport them into the prison and finally decided to do so. After 27 days of travel in prison carts, they arrived, then escaped their cells. They got the equipment back from a Secret Chest they had set up and proceeded to meet the immolation devil, with whom they made a deal to free him and he would give them information on the prison complex. After that they liberated Waxberry, found the spirit of that Saranrae priestess and took the corpse of the astral deva with them (to resurrect them later, since nobody wants more useless NPC's in the coming fights).

They finally met Alderpash and convinced him to try for redemption in return for setting him free. Next session will be a combat against all the prison wardens at once. After that the Herald and after that, Baphomet, although I'll doubt that they'll get to the last one on one session.

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