Re-posting this from another thread because it doesn't really belong in that thread and I am honestly curious how it would work.
The idea is that you could planar bind multiple genies, force them to grant you wishes that would get you to an inherent bonus of +5 to an ability score, but then kill them before they are released from the binding and return to their home plane.
Since you need at least two genies to get to +5, how would you arrange it so that both of the genies died and you still get your +5? Since by the rules, the wishes must be granted in consecutive rounds, the best scenario I see here is:
Setup: Both genies are bound, with dimensional lock in place. Both genies are asked to give +3 inherit ability score increases when requested (note the timing has to be part of the agreement, even if it's simple "On my command"), and both are successfully compelled
Round 1: 1st genie grants 1st ability score increase
Round 2: 1st genie grants 2nd ability score increase
Round 3: 1st genie is killed by party; wizard orders 2nd genie to give 3rd ability score increase; 2nd genie refuses because it has become an unreasonable command, since he now has every reason to believe he will be dead after the 2nd wish is grantedYou can argue what happens in round three isn't per the rules, but the spell specifically requires "unreasonable commands" to be refused. Now, what constitutes an "unreasonable command" is a matter of DM judgement, but it certainly seems a very reasonable GM ruling to decide that a genie would find it "unreasonable" to trust the honor of a group that just proved itself to be dishonorable murderers. Furthermore, the genie would not consider the command "reasonable" until it knew that it would be returned to it's home plane "immediately" when the last wish was granted, because there is no way he trusts you to keep your word.
Now you may find it more reasonable to believe the genie will simply grant the wishes and trust the dishonorable murderers to keep their word to him when the party clearly betrayed one of his own kind (or simply grant them out of fear and hope the party is merciful), but neither interpretation is "more correcter" than the other as far as the rules go. It's a matter of how a GM feels NPCs should react to the actions of the PCs, and here is where I think you and I might disagree.
I should point out that for some GMs, an "unreasonable command" could even be mortals asking the genie to grant the wishes in the first place, since it encourages mortals to continue to do so and leads to the continual enslavement of geniekind. Also, if you think a genie wish works exactly like the wish spell and requires a 25,000 gp material component, a genie may find it completely unreasonable to grant the wishes as well if they have to provide the component themselves.
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Getting them to bow to your will could take a lot of time, and is inherently risky. However, it looks totally acceptable within the rules. There's also little reason why an unscrupulous spellcaster of great power and knowledge (of genie-kind) wouldn't attempt this, so it even makes sense in the context of most campaigns.
Nevertheless, many GMs may still see it as a form of cheating.
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Yes, you could do that. You'd be better off just getting on the djinns' good side though. Trading wishes is a classic method since you can make wishes that affect the Djinn. Offering to make the same wishes for the djinn in question is an ideal method that virtually any self-serving djinn should be into. Seriously, imagine some guy grabs you and says, "Hey, for one minute of your time each day for a few weeks, you can be stronger, faster, tougher, smarter, wiser, and more charismatic, and you can have a powerful wizard as your friend". Only a moronic efreeti would turn down such an offer when it costs him literally 30 seconds of time each day.
That being said, unreasonable by definition means things that are not part of rational thought. The unreasonable demands thing is not a blank check to ignore any command they want, it is to prevent things like telling them to kill god, kill themselves, or divide by zero.
Demands that go against the creature's nature, are unfair, are bad for the creature, and so forth give the creature a bonus on their Charisma check (between +0 and +6) to resist the demand. If they fail the check they have to do it.
It's worth noting that in Curse of the Crimson Throne, and Legacy of Fire, there are genies that keep wish slaves to allow them to grant wishes. In the Seven Swords of Sin, there is a genie kept permanently bound to that granted inherent bonuses to its keeper and infinite (3/day) wishes. These are Paizo publications.
As far as outsiders actually twisting the wishes... meh. I dunno. Seems "iffy" to me, and sounds more like a breach of contract between GM and player (on the part of either) that would cause such a thing, OR a specific plot device, to my sensibilities, though I know others feel differently.
Getting them to bow to your will could take a lot of time, and is inherently risky. However, it looks totally acceptable within the rules. There's also little reason why an unscrupulous spellcaster of great power and knowledge (of genie-kind) wouldn't attempt this, so it even makes sense in the context of most campaigns.
Ah, I worded my actual question badly, or maybe not even at all. You're right, it is totally acceptable; I even point out that a DM could rule that the genie would still try and grant the wish after watching its compatriot get slaughtered, believing (or just being convinced, per your mechanic) that somehow it will be treated differently.
However, if the GM rules that the genie would find granting wishes to treacherous murderers (from its point of view) to be an "unreasonable command" without some guarantee that it could return to its own plane immediately upon the completion of its part of the bargain, part of what it must get in return to make the command "reasonable" is the be not dimensionally locked, anchored, or bound in any way.
So, my actual question is: given that the genie at the time of granting the last wish is not dimensionally bound, and that the return happens immediately upon the wish being granted, how do you kill it before it returns?
I just don't see a way to make that happen; what am I missing? And if you don't see a way either, RD, that's fine. This question came up because of something Anzyr posted, and I was hoping he would explain to me how mechanically that would happen.
That being said, unreasonable by definition means things that are not part of rational thought. The unreasonable demands thing is not a blank check to ignore any command they want, it is to prevent things like telling them to kill god, kill themselves, or divide by zero.
The American Heritage Dictionary definition of unreasonable:
1. Not governed by reason: an unreasonable attitude
2. Exceeding reasonable limits; immoderate: unreasonable demands
The American Heritage Dictionary definition of immoderate:
1. Exceeding normal or appropriate bounds; extreme. immoderate spending; immoderate laughter
So, barring a clarification from the developers on the RAI, the rules are ambiguous because the RAW is ambiguous (possibly deliberately so) and a GM is free to define "unreasonable" as either "not goverened by reason" or "immoderate", or both.
And to reiterate something from earlier, neither way of defining this is badwrongfun, so long as the group is actually, you know, having fun. (I should make something like this my signature...)
Also, as already corrected above (which you acknowledge in the other thread, but I'm pointing out for clarity in this one), being a spell-like ability doesn't cost money. :)
So, my actual question is: given that the genie at the time of granting the last wish is not dimensionally bound, and that the return happens immediately upon the wish being granted, how do you kill it before it returns?
I just don't see a way to make that happen; what am I missing? And if you don't see a way either, RD, that's fine. This question came up because of something Anzyr posted, and I was hoping he would explain to me how mechanically that would happen.
So, let's look at Planar Binding.
(We also need to look at Magic Circle mechanics.)I think the "trick" is,
Once the requested service is completed, the creature need only to inform you to be instantly sent back whence it came.
If you fool them into completing their tasks and ending their turn (say, pretending good graces and excellent manners) and then utilizing the moment(s) before their next turn to kill them.
But that's just a guess, really. I wouldn't know.
I think the "trick" is,
Once the requested service is completed, the creature need only to inform you to be instantly sent back whence it came.If you fool them into completing their tasks and ending their turn (say, pretending good graces and excellent manners) and then utilizing the moment(s) before their next turn to kill them.
I suppose if the party behaved obsequiously enough (which might require one or more Bluff checks), you could convince a genie to stick around long enough—the ones who can grant wishes certainly seem arrogant enough to be willing to listen to flattery for a few rounds, but that's by no means a guarantee. It's just as likely that for all the praise, the genie just wants to get out of their and back home. But I appreciate your perspective. It's one I hadn't thought of, and it's rooted in NPC characterization and motivation, which makes it even more appealing (to me, at least). However, it also means its not a guarantee even if the genie sticks around to listen, because the moment the party attacks, the genie might just choose to plane shift home.
And Anzyr's implication was that he had a guaranteed way to do this. Of course, as he hasn't addressed this scenario yet, it may have relied on the genie simply granting the wishes while locked down to the material plane, in which case my scenario never even comes up.
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I'm a fan of binding both as a GM and as a player. It can create a lot of really awesome plot hooks as a GM and gives me great opportunities to use outsiders as antagonists or victims while remaining primarily on the material plane. Elementals, fiends, angels, the list of opportunities are endless.
In general, I would recommend or even encourage players to avoid being mean to outsiders though, though I'll admit that some outsiders may react well to domination (some demons probably respect wizards who can overpower them rather than those who play nice, but then some devils might respect a good deal, etc). In general, remember that these are characters too. Even the fire elementals.
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As mentioned in ultimate magic, Djinnis can be very receptive if you actually promise to help them against their political enemies. Holding a Djinni hostage for too long is usually not a good idea. Something people always forget genies in particular don't have the same restriction as other outsiders like fiends. So it means their friends/family/lovers are most likely to come free them and that's where...you can get into serious troubles.
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This is one of the reasons I think dealing with efreeti is a better deal. It's also where cool plot hooks can come in. See, a wizard that can cast planar binding is 11th level. An efreeti is chump change compared to him and his retinue of friends. But this is a great opportunity to create plot hooks for the GM.
As an example, in one game that went into epics that I ran some years ago, the party met an efreeti through some planar binding and offered a friendly wish-trade. The efreeti decided he liked the idea of getting some of his own wishes (since efreeti can't grant wishes to genies) and agreed.
A bit later, the party was implored by the efreeti that they met because the efreeti and his kin were in dire trouble, for an enemy of their family was threatening their lands and power on the elemental plane of fire. The party went to the aid of the efreeti and there was a nice side-quest on the elemental plane of fire as the party tried to help the efreeti take back their home. When the party succeeded, they were honorary members of the efreeti house and given slaves (whom they promptly gave their freedom).
Good times.
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In general, I would recommend or even encourage players to avoid being mean to outsiders though, though I'll admit that some outsiders may react well to domination (some demons probably respect wizards who can overpower them rather than those who play nice, but then some devils might respect a good deal, etc). In general, remember that these are characters too. Even the fire elementals.
See, this is why I need to sit at your table sometime.
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I think Anzyr is using a class from 3.5 that let you bind and deceive extraplanar monsters. There are a few genie classes in PF, too.
But I'm glad I could help! :)
EDIT: also, as noted, it's a guess... I am not entirely certain that's what he's using, it just seemed a stable in-character loophole.
And... I agree with TriOmegaZero: while I'd likely die - often - at level 1 against Ashiel's orcs and goblins, that game sounds amazing. :)
My question is, why hasn't a Genie worked to get protection from Planar Binding spells? As someone who can grant wishes, wouldn't it be very plausible that they have made allies with people to magically protect themselves from being planar bound?
My question is, why hasn't a Genie worked to get protection from Planar Binding spells? As someone who can grant wishes, wouldn't it be very plausible that they have made allies with people to magically protect themselves from being planar bound?
The only thing I can think of that would do that is a permanent Dimensional Anchor effect which would trap them forever on their home plane. Which could be rather disadvantageous at one point or another.
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My question is, why hasn't a Genie worked to get protection from Planar Binding spells? As someone who can grant wishes, wouldn't it be very plausible that they have made allies with people to magically protect themselves from being planar bound?
Because they can planeshift at will? To the elemental plane, the material plane and the astral plane...like I said earlier binding a genie is about as risky as it gets. All their buddies are going to come get him before you know it.
I think you could pull it off without the genies realizing the treachery--ask for two items. The wishes and something else they can do for you to be done after the wishes.
While that would of course work, it would require a very permissive DM to allow two unrelated services to be done as part of the spell, since the spell specifically says "one service".
I think you could pull it off without the genies realizing the treachery--ask for two items. The wishes and something else they can do for you to be done after the wishes.While that would of course work, it would require a very permissive DM to allow two unrelated services to be done as part of the spell, since the spell specifically says "one service".
You can also ask them for general or open-ended service, in which case the outsider serves you for a certain amount of time (but no longer than one day per caster level), but it gives the outsider an immediate chance to free itself if it's not into the idea (though that's usually an impossibly difficult thing to do since it's a Charisma check opposed to 15 + 1/2 your caster level + your charisma modifier +5 if your circle is good).
I think Anzyr is using a class from 3.5 that let you bind and deceive extraplanar monsters. There are a few genie classes in PF, too.
But I'm glad I could help! :)
EDIT: also, as noted, it's a guess... I am not entirely certain that's what he's using, it just seemed a stable in-character loophole.
And... I agree with TriOmegaZero: while I'd likely die - often - at level 1 against Ashiel's orcs and goblins, that game sounds amazing. :)
Well Malconvoker is hands down my favorite PRC of all time for just being the most delicious flavor dripping option that comes with solid mechanical benefits, but my preferred strategy in PF doesn't utilize that (although it does involve deceiving the outsiders).
My requested service is usually something to the effect of "Serve me unquestioningly for the next 8 days". That gives you more then enough time to planar bind another Efreeti to help you get +5 inherent bonuses to all stats. After that you tip off some Jann about some Efreeti slavers in the area, send your Efreet minions on some pointless errand in that area, sit back, relax and have a bowl of popcorn.
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See, this is why I need to sit at your table sometime.
And... I agree with TriOmegaZero: while I'd likely die - often - at level 1 against Ashiel's orcs and goblins, that game sounds amazing. :)
Aw, thanks guys. I'm up to my eyeballs in GMing duties right now though. I'm working on a d20 rewrite that I'm going to be using to run my games with in the near future, and I've got a game on Fridays I'm playing in, and a game tomorrow that has been on hold due to the holidays and my players are about to go insane for the next session. One of the players is constantly trying to grab me up for side-sessions between sessions. ^~^
In the spirit of more planar binding fun, there was once a dungeon that my players were going through. Inside the dungeon was a very large fire elemental trapped in a circle and forgotten there. One of the party members spoke Ignan and they decided to free the elemental from her prison and she helped them for a while.
Also, in the spirit of outsider binding shenanigans, I'm going to share a magic item that I recently wrote up that currently houses one of the PCs (the PC is an outsider-typed character, and this magic item has something to do with her backstroy).
Tome of Soul Binding
Aura strong conjuration; Level 15th
Slot none; Price 15,780 gp (minor), 22,380 gp (moderate), 30,180 gp (major); Weight 3 lbs.
DESCRIPTION
These powerful arcane tomes are as frequently condemned as they are prized. These terrible items can trap an outsider into bondage permanently. Tomes come in three basic varieties: minor, moderate, and major tomes, each calibrated to contain a different strength of outsider. Major tomes may contain an outsider of 18 HD or less, moderate tomes 12 HD or less, and minor 6 HD or less. Beyond the hit dice limit of these tomes, they are functionally the same.
When the bearer of the tome is within 60 ft. of an outsider that the bearer is aware of, the bearer may issue a command word to attempt to bind the outsider within the tome. If the bearer has line of effect to the outsider, the outsider must make a DC 22 Will saving throw or be sucked into the tome. The outsider's spell resistance, if any, may protect it unless the book can overcome it (the book has a +15 to overcome spell resistance). Whether the outsider was trapped or not, the binding may only be attempted once per book (thus failed binding attempts result in worthless book). If the outsider was summoned (as opposed to called or on its home plane) it cannot be trapped in the book and the effect simply fails and the book's binding is not used up and may be attempted again.
Assuming the binding succeeded, the outsider may be called from or dismissed to the book with a command word by the bearer of the book. When called, the outsider cannot act against the bearer or his or her allies, even through indirect means (including using summoning abilities). When called, the bearer of the book may attempt to force the outsider into service with an opposed Charisma check against the bound outsider. The outsider gains a bonus ranging from +0 to +6 depending on how strongly the outsider is opposed to the order (+0 being suitable something the outsider is indifferent about, and +6 being something the outsider is vehemently opposed to). If the outsider wins the check, the outsider can refuse to obey the order, and the binder cannot attempt to force the outsider to do so again for 1 minute (which means refusal is generally only prolonging the inevitable).
The outsider can be returned to the book from any distance (including across planes) if the bearer spends one hour reciting magical phrases from the book, which calls the outsider back, even if the outsider's orders allowed it to temporarily venture beyond the grasp of the bearer.
Should the outsider attempt to escape from the book's bearer, the outsider quickly finds that they can travel no further than 60 ft. from the book's owner without permission or order to do so, even through abilities such as teleport or plane shift. The outsider cannot attempt to steal the book, or gift it to another, though the book can be given by the bearer or stolen by someone else. Once taken, the new benefactor is considered the new owner of the tome for all purposes described above.
If if the tome's magic is suppressed (such as by dispel magic or mage's disjunction) the bearer cannot force the outsider to take orders for the duration of the suppression, and the outsider is allowed to ignore any current orders while the magic is suppressed.
Freeing an outsider from a tome is difficult. Destroying the tome generally kills the bound outsider (and as such most outsiders are instinctively protective of any books they are bound to, even if they hate them). Limited wish can grant the outsider a new saving throw to break free from the book, and a wish or miracle grants a new saving throw with a circumstance bonus equal to half the spell's caster level.
If an outsider that is bound gains enough hit dice (through natural advancement or obtaining class levels) to put it over the hit dice limit of the tome, the tome may be unable to continue containing the creature's soul. If the outsider rolls a natural 20 when attempting to refuse a command and wins the opposed Charisma check, the outsider can make a new saving throw against the tome to attempt to break free.
A typical tome of soul binding is bound in iron and has a hardness of 10, 35 hp, a +9 bonus on saving throws, though other sorts may exist as well.
CREATION
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, trap the soul, lesser planar binding (minor), planar binding (moderate), or greater planar binding (major), magic circle against chaos/evil/good/law, dimensional anchor; Cost 7,890 gp (minor), 11,190 gp (moderate), 15,090 gp (major)
The way I run it, efreeti and djinn both consider having to grant wishes to be somewhat demeaning -- they're lords, not servants. If you beat them or trick them or otherwise overcome them in a fair contest -- well, you pay the price, and that't that. Djinn are somewhat tricksy, efreeti are malicious, so they may both do fun things (by their definition!) with wishes. That's all part of the game, and caveat summoner
But that's on the individual level. If you start pulling this trick with lots of them -- well, chaotic good folk will bind together to defend themselves against enslavers, and lawful evil folk will move in force to crush robbers...
And both of these races can plane shift, so if the word gets out that some wizard is pulling Munchkin Cheese Collection Trick #423-B (yes, they have catalogs of all the ways that foolish mortal wizards have tried this), then a posse or three will descend on the Prime Material Plane for a whine and cheese party. And, yes, efreeti and djinn can both have class levels, or extra hit dice, or things like that...
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All of that only means that the wizard has to take a few more precautions. A disguise, a private sanctum spell, etc. It's not preventing, only creating more bookkeeping.
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My requested service is usually something to the effect of "Serve me unquestioningly for the next 8 days". That gives you more then enough time to planar bind another Efreeti to help you get +5 inherent bonuses to all stats. After that you tip off some Jann about some Efreeti slavers in the area, send your Efreet minions on some pointless errand in that area, sit back, relax and have a bowl of popcorn.
Thanks for answering, Anzyr.
So your solution isn't something I'm missing mechanically about how planar binding works. You solve the scenario by making sure it doesn't happen in the first place. And your solution puts us back to what "one service" and a "reasonable command" would be, and here we would just agree to disagree, I think.
Which is fine. The rules allow either of our interpretations to be correct, and as always neither one is badwrongfun as long as each of us and the groups we're playing with are having, you know, fun.
Cross-posting this here from the high-level math thread, because I would rather respond to it here.
That's actually a very interesting (and good!) question, and one that's been raised in numerous other places. In Paizo's printed Golarion (as of 3.5), the question is answered in a two-fold measure, both in Legacy of Fire:
a) because too many wishes break down reality (and then you get angry things coming at you)
b) because there's apparently a super-sultan of efreeti that already did this once (he might have been the first, but he was definitely the last) and made it so that no one could ever take that title away from him
Also in Legacy of Fire, there is a Genie does something similar this anyway, and it causes lots of problems for himself.
Thanks for pointing this out, Tacticslion. I have the AP, just haven't really looked at it yet. I'll dig into this to look into some of the details.
Cross-posting this here from the high-level math thread, because I would rather respond to it here.
That's actually a very interesting (and good!) question, and one that's been raised in numerous other places. In Paizo's printed Golarion (as of 3.5), the question is answered in a two-fold measure, both in Legacy of Fire:
a) because too many wishes break down reality (and then you get angry things coming at you)
b) because there's apparently a super-sultan of efreeti that already did this once (he might have been the first, but he was definitely the last) and made it so that no one could ever take that title away from him
Also in Legacy of Fire, there is a Genie does something similar this anyway, and it causes lots of problems for himself.
Thanks for pointing this out, Tacticslion. I have the AP, just haven't really looked at it yet. I'll dig into this to look into some of the details.
Glad I could help!
Now, if you're okay with spoilers,...
So it could seem to be a bit of a cop-out on my part, but I feel it's warranted (as that sort of thing would draw reprisal) and I also wanted to let you know before you exhausted yourself looking.
Also, "a" is part of the 3.5 Paizo-Golarion wish mechanics presented in the book, while "b" is some fluff-text story that I only vaguely recall about someone else trying something similar and... paying the price.
Perhaps I am missing the obvious, but why kill the Efreet/Djinn in the first place? If you've bargained a good bargain with them, wouldn't they be kindly disposed to help you out again, whereas word getting out (and it would eventually) that there's a wacko caster summoning and murdering their brethren would lead to no end of trouble.
Why would the caster kill his bound genie?
Perhaps I am missing the obvious, but why kill the Efreet/Djinn in the first place? If you've bargained a good bargain with them, wouldn't they be kindly disposed to help you out again, whereas word getting out (and it would eventually) that there's a wacko caster summoning and murdering their brethren would lead to no end of trouble.
Why would the caster kill his bound genie?
I think the idea is that you succeed on your charisma check to succeed at a pretty bad deal and them eliminate them before word gets back (using chicanery to get people to think you were mostly un-involved and/or everyone's ally).
With genies it's not that big a deal.
With fiends, for example, it might be.
But I dunno - it probably heavily depends on campaign worlds and alignment/personality interpretations.
But won't the clerks in the City of Brass notice when nobody shows up to defend/justify the wish granted?
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I think the idea is that you succeed on your charisma check to succeed at a pretty bad deal and them eliminate them before word gets back (using chicanery to get people to think you were mostly un-involved and/or everyone's ally).Perhaps I am missing the obvious, but why kill the Efreet/Djinn in the first place? If you've bargained a good bargain with them, wouldn't they be kindly disposed to help you out again, whereas word getting out (and it would eventually) that there's a wacko caster summoning and murdering their brethren would lead to no end of trouble.
Why would the caster kill his bound genie?
That is my impression from Anzyr's posts on the subject.
With genies it's not that big a deal.
With fiends, for example, it might be.
But I dunno - it probably heavily depends on campaign worlds and alignment/personality interpretations.
I'd agree with this as well.
But won't the clerks in the City of Brass notice when nobody shows up to defend/justify the wish granted?
If the campaign world has such a system in place, the answer is going to be yes, with all that entails for the character.
Interesting. Why do I have to kill the genies or efreets after I get my wishes? If I can summon and bind them, I'm not real worried about them killing me. Efreets and djinns aren't the most dangerous of enemies.
I'm assuming we can come to some kind of mutually beneficial agreement.
Interesting. Why do I have to kill the genies or efreets after I get my wishes? If I can summon and bind them, I'm not real worried about them killing me. Efreets and djinns aren't the most dangerous of enemies.
I'm assuming we can come to some kind of mutually beneficial agreement.
Exactly. I understand that there are those out there playing evil campaigns that would prefer to do things the "easy" way of just killing them after they get their wishes, but for the vast majority of summoners, wouldn't the preferred method be to find an agreeable genie and make a deal?
I am playing a summoner and one of my plans is to find an Azer Noble and forge a pack with him so that I might summon some of his liege-men using my Summon Monster spells. (This is mainly my fluff method of trying to get more Lawful Neutral outsiders on the list so that I can take the Sacred Summons feat and have it actually be useful for me, but my DM is agreeable if I put the effort into it.) But I guarantee if I started murdering these vassals after making this deal, I would have some very pissed off outsiders hunting me down... :)
Interesting. Why do I have to kill the genies or efreets after I get my wishes? If I can summon and bind them, I'm not real worried about them killing me. Efreets and djinns aren't the most dangerous of enemies.
I'm assuming we can come to some kind of mutually beneficial agreement.
Again, heavily depends on the play style, character, and what you're summoning and binding, how you're summoning and binding, and why you're summoning and binding. And killing.
For the most part, I agree.
Interesting. Why do I have to kill the genies or efreets after I get my wishes? If I can summon and bind them, I'm not real worried about them killing me. Efreets and djinns aren't the most dangerous of enemies.
I'm assuming we can come to some kind of mutually beneficial agreement.
Exactly. I understand that there are those out there playing evil campaigns that would prefer to do things the "easy" way of just killing them after they get their wishes, but for the vast majority of summoners, wouldn't the preferred method be to find an agreeable genie and make a deal?
I am playing a summoner and one of my plans is to find an Azer Noble and forge a pack with him so that I might summon some of his liege-men using my Summon Monster spells. (This is mainly my fluff method of trying to get more Lawful Neutral outsiders on the list so that I can take the Sacred Summons feat and have it actually be useful for me, but my DM is agreeable if I put the effort into it.) But I guarantee if I started murdering these vassals after making this deal, I would have some very pissed off outsiders hunting me down... :)
First: that's awesome. I love that story.
Second: I suspect Anzyr mostly responds with "killing" because efreeti are evil sons of flames, and have generally earned themselves a righteous smiting by janni anti-slavers. At least that's kind of the whole idea behind the Malconvoker class: get evil to serve you (secretly serving good ends - oh that rascally Malconvoker!) and then turn it against itself so that it's destroyed before it learns of the deception.
Third: Most people are just going to be careless and summon all of whoever they need today.
Fourth: I'd suggest that it's a different thing. In your case, you're building a specific interaction with specific individuals for use of the spell. People will definitely notice if you start abusing it, because they know you personally. But... unlike the trickster and the randomized lottery-summoners, you're also making a friend. This is a benefit as well as a drawback. Also, you're not summoning evil creatures. :)
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Interesting. Why do I have to kill the genies or efreets after I get my wishes? If I can summon and bind them, I'm not real worried about them killing me. Efreets and djinns aren't the most dangerous of enemies.
I'm assuming we can come to some kind of mutually beneficial agreement.
Exactly. I understand that there are those out there playing evil campaigns that would prefer to do things the "easy" way of just killing them after they get their wishes, but for the vast majority of summoners, wouldn't the preferred method be to find an agreeable genie and make a deal?
I am playing a summoner and one of my plans is to find an Azer Noble and forge a pack with him so that I might summon some of his liege-men using my Summon Monster spells. (This is mainly my fluff method of trying to get more Lawful Neutral outsiders on the list so that I can take the Sacred Summons feat and have it actually be useful for me, but my DM is agreeable if I put the effort into it.) But I guarantee if I started murdering these vassals after making this deal, I would have some very pissed off outsiders hunting me down... :)
Cool. I like that story.
My oracle of life spent 10,000 gold to summon a Solar with a gate spell to build a relationship with him. She spent time explaining her needs and what she was trying to do for the kingdom. She might have to call upon him to defend the kingdom and her people. He fell in love with her and they ended up having a child. A good investment of my coin.
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Interesting. Why do I have to kill the genies or efreets after I get my wishes? If I can summon and bind them, I'm not real worried about them killing me. Efreets and djinns aren't the most dangerous of enemies.
I'm assuming we can come to some kind of mutually beneficial agreement.
The Efreetis and Djinnis that you see in the book are the "commoners" genies or the way to see it, they are the low end ones.
They do have heroic genies, as in genies with class levels , of course the nobles version Malik and Sheik who have more abilities and some of them with class levels on top of it.
You don't have to kill them of course, but I tend to play planar binding differently when I gm. Like if you summon a random genie without doing any research about them, you might end summoning the son of the King or a powerful genie. Who of course does everything to come free his son from your planar binding with his army of genies.
Interesting. Why do I have to kill the genies or efreets after I get my wishes? If I can summon and bind them, I'm not real worried about them killing me. Efreets and djinns aren't the most dangerous of enemies.
I'm assuming we can come to some kind of mutually beneficial agreement.
The Efreetis and Djinnis that you see in the book are the "commoners" genies or the way to see it, they are the low end ones.
They do have heroic genies, as in genies with class levels , of course the nobles version Malik and Sheik who have more abilities and some of them with class levels on top of it.
You don't have to kill them of course, but I tend to play planar binding differently when I gm. Like if you summon a random genie without doing any research about them, you might end summoning the son of the King or a powerful genie. Who of course does everything to come free his son from your planar binding with his army of genies.
Every time? I can't imagine designing an encounter of that kind every time a player binds a creature. If you didn't kill the party, they would become more and more powerful.
The guys I play with would enjoy a DM that designed things of this nature if they summoned stuff. They would start summoning stuff to gain more experience to gain more levels and treasure. Summon a creature of moderate power that was a noble, then kill his father and the army that comes after them to gain experience and treasure. It would be like feeding them levels unless you made the encounter to kill them.
I have killed players...plenty of time lol. Among of group of players, I'm known as the DM of death. I almost had a TPK once but so far, it didn't happen yet. All my players tend to be very careful when they playing under me. I essentially don't make anything easy.
My players wouldn't enjoy that style. They're at the point where they want to enjoy being heroes and feel like it was worth it investing time in building them up. I understand making encounters difficult. I don't look to TPK my party. That's not fun for me or them. Ruins the entire story.
If you're abusing DM power, I can't imagine that many people enjoying that type of game. DM can kill players whenever feels like it by overwhelming them. I'd rather walk that fine line between making things challenging and making them fun. Character death after a player invests a huge amount of time and energy developing and roleplaying a character hurts their enjoyment of the game, at least for a majority.
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Don't worry my players are having fun, it's all in good fun all the time. I'm actually a nice and rewarding dm if you actually roleplay and do the things that you are supposed to be doing with planar binding, like doing some researches and not summoning someone randomly. One of my player secured the aid of a Leonal for essentially six months, after making a good case of how he was going to save the world from a tyrant overlord.
Killing players with overwhelming encounters is indeed easy and I simply don't do that. I keep every fights around their APL, I just don't pull punches and take inspiration from many tactics of monsters from various supplements like Fiendish Codex: Hordes of the Abyss or the many published APs (they have so many interesting fights).
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Interesting. Why do I have to kill the genies or efreets after I get my wishes? If I can summon and bind them, I'm not real worried about them killing me. Efreets and djinns aren't the most dangerous of enemies.
I'm assuming we can come to some kind of mutually beneficial agreement.
Well the thing is you don't have to kill the djinn. In fact, you probably shouldn't. The whole thing about killing them after you're done stems from GMs who are just looking for an excuse to mess with you, and it's a method of protecting yourself.
If your GM tries to make using your planar binding spells a horrible ordeal, and the Djinn is going to suddenly return with a legion of his efreeti friends with 10 class levels, then the only way to reliably use Planar Binding is to make sure there's no witnesses. You bind them, get what you want from them, and then kill them. It's horrible, it's pointless, and it stems from douchebaggery of the highest caliber.
In a game where NPCs are treated like people rather than PC-murder-machines, you may not even need to make an opposed Charisma check. The Djinn will probably grant the wishes to you without resistance. I mean, you're 11th level. Your group probably has someone with at least a +10 Diplomacy modifier (though it's probably closer to +15 or +20). That character could take 10 to improve an unfriendly efreeti's attitude to indifferent, or even friendly. Wishes cost the efreeti literally nothing, so the Diplomacy DC to request wishes is likely very low (such as give simple aid). Especially if you make it worth his time somehow (such as making wishes on his behalf).
But this is the sort of asinine thing that comes from DM vs PC activities.
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I mean, you're 11th level. Your group probably has someone with at least a +10 Diplomacy modifier (though it's probably closer to +15 or +20).
I was about to say, my 7th level Life Oracle can't roll less than a 20 on Diplomacy. She's going to be ridiculous at 11th.
Genies are NOTORIOUS for twisting wishes. So much so that Paizo has chapters written about it. They're masters at it. So, sure, take your +5 inherent ability and watch yourself get a -5 to another score as well, or it drives you insane, or you can't ever not try to break something (for strength), or it's only active on a full moon of a leap year. Something, SOMETHING should go wrong. Horribly, horribly wrong.
I mean, you're 11th level. Your group probably has someone with at least a +10 Diplomacy modifier (though it's probably closer to +15 or +20).I was about to say, my 7th level Life Oracle can't roll less than a 20 on Diplomacy. She's going to be ridiculous at 11th.
I'm being conservative for sake of generality. An actual face probably has waaaaay more than that, but even if you have a 5 Charisma at 11th level (like a dwarf), no buffs, and just dumped 11 ranks into Diplomacy and a masterwork tool, you're at +10.
If you're actually a face, you're probably breaking the +20 mark for sure (11 ranks + 3 class skill + 2 mwk tool + 6 Charisma = +22). :)
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Genies are NOTORIOUS for twisting wishes. So much so that Paizo has chapters written about it. They're masters at it. So, sure, take your +5 inherent ability and watch yourself get a -5 to another score as well, or it drives you insane, or you can't ever not try to break something (for strength), or it's only active on a full moon of a leap year. Something, SOMETHING should go wrong. Horribly, horribly wrong.
If it was something outside the generic basic never mess up wishes, I'd agree.
Review the Wishcraft chapter in the Osirion AP. I forget the name. If from a genie, good, bad, standard, or odd, a wish is getting twisted. Bottling a genie is viewed as being better to some species of genie rather than being milked for wishes. They universally loathe it.
With some other race that grants wishes I'd agree with you. Any other race. Even devils and demons.
Assuming wish-granting genies aren't stupid, they'll almost never have wishes available to grant. Efreeti, for example, love having slaves. Would they have a slave request an Efreeti-serving wish whenever a wish was available? You bet they would. Giving wishes away to foolish conjurers is a waste of their resources. Any decently smart Efreeti will have most of the Permanency spells applied, a good Contingency - probably one that breaks magic circles, because there is literally no reason they wouldn't have these things - they have the resources to do it. They would also have +3 inherent bonus on every stat (possibly +5 if they worked together) and may have daily applications of long lasting high level spells like Moment of Prescience to avoid being summoned at all.
Having 3 wishes a day make Efreeti terrifyingly powerful. All they need is a single non-genie to work with them (a slave or perhaps paid in the occasional wish) and the magical resources they can bring to bear is staggering. If an Efreeti goes missing (i.e. gets called up via Planar Binding), his allies use a wish to Discern Location upon him, then Plane Shift/Greater Teleport in to rescue him along with any required summoned allies - perhaps with their own Planar Allies (not Planar Binding) and lay waste to the foolish 'kidnapper'. They've had thousands upon thousands of years to work this out, after all.
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Assuming wish-granting genies aren't stupid, they'll almost never have wishes available to grant. Efreeti, for example, love having slaves. Would they have a slave request an Efreeti-serving wish whenever a wish was available? You bet they would. Giving wishes away to foolish conjurers is a waste of their resources. Any decently smart Efreeti will have most of the Permanency spells applied, a good Contingency - probably one that breaks magic circles, because there is literally no reason they wouldn't have these things - they have the resources to do it. They would also have +3 inherent bonus on every stat (possibly +5 if they worked together) and may have daily applications of long lasting high level spells like Moment of Prescience to avoid being summoned at all.
Having 3 wishes a day make Efreeti terrifyingly powerful. All they need is a single non-genie to work with them (a slave or perhaps paid in the occasional wish) and the magical resources they can bring to bear is staggering. If an Efreeti goes missing (i.e. gets called up via Planar Binding), his allies use a wish to Discern Location upon him, then Plane Shift/Greater Teleport in to rescue him along with any required summoned allies - perhaps with their own Planar Allies (not Planar Binding) and lay waste to the foolish 'kidnapper'. They've had thousands upon thousands of years to work this out, after all.
Ironically this is more ruinous in terms of narrative. Pretty much ruins any genie in a bottle trope. It ruins stuff like Baldur's Gate II where you can rescue the Djinn from Jon Irenicus. It ruins the need for the adventurers to go capture the Rakshasa Itafeer for the djinn. It also goes against their ecology, which doesn't include slave followers to be used for wishes. Humorously, their bestiary entry mentions nothing of slaves at all.
Though maybe Djinn in Golarion are a different breed of Efreeti.