First of all if you could tell us about the characters (and a few words about the builds if not the whole builds), other than that how do they all get +18 fort and will (since those are the 2 saves that really count)?
I run RotRL quite some time ago but unfortunately i wasn't keeping notes of my changes back then, still i think i might be able to remember how i beefed up the encounters.
Battlefield control from the mages in Runelords can make easy encounters into hard ones. If you just wait for the players to reach the caster's lair and run him through, then of course it's going to be easy.
If the caster discreetly reinforces his minions, takes calculated pot-shots at the PCs, and is careful not to expose themselves to counter-mage tactics like scry-n-die, you'll give them a run for their money. Giants are great minions for mages. Pop in to back them up with a battlefield control spell, then fade back to set the next group of minions up for an ambush. If the players flee, press the attack.
If a mage survives three or four such encounters, feel free to level him up to keep him proportional to the PCs.
Also, higher-level mages keep the pressure on a low level party. Once they understand that they are being scried upon with some frequency (remember they can roll to see the scry sensor) it will change the party's behavior. High level mages need to loom large throughout the adventure! Use weird spells like whispering wind to rattle them.
This will only become more true in Runeforge.
The encounters and map locations are a starting point. Take that information and breathe life into it. Don't be a passive GM.
At that point, if you're still having problems, look hard at the party stats and do some "dress rehearsal" encounters on your own. Try to find other ways to challenge them besides hit points. Conditions, attrition, moral quandaries.
EDIT: I missed that like about putting the casters in.
How did they get those saves?
One spell to rule them all, Black Tentacles. No saving throw will help them where they're going. Also, it's important to make sure to avid the 15 minute adventure day, at this level if they afford to nova-bomb every fight then they're gonna wipe the floor with their opponents. But if they need to spread out their abilities and spells over the day, it can make things more challenging.
Particularly with an adventure path remember that every encounter isn't *supposed* to be a tough encounter. Not every monster on the wandering monster table should feel like a boss fight. Making a half dozen random encounters that the characters can easily thresh through makes the moments they can't just lay waste really stand out. If I have one hard fast rule about modifying encounters is that I never boost stat blocks. I always add members to the enemy's team and use the encounter design tables to decide how many to add based on how tough I want each fight to be. Weaker opponents in larger numbers will be more effective simply as a result of better action economy (plus creating more havok on the battlefield which is fun and interesting) and when they win a bit, it's not in the TPK ways that arbitrarily buffing stat blocks tends to do.
A party will have way more fun beating down 16 stone giants than they will beating down a single storm giant whose stat block got jacked by 6 cr levels... I'd be willing to say this is true 9 times out of 10.
dot
Edit: I'm also wondering about those saves. The only characters I know that can reach that level are paladins with a BUTTLOAD of saves items. After that, there's dex-magus, dex-cleric and dex-inquisitor. But I've never seen a character with +18 saves at level 13, much less level 11. Heck, about +14 is the best I can imagine. I guess the're getting a lot of buffing? Might want to shut that down, have more surprizes, etc.
PS: I have seen well-optimizaed PCs with around DC 26 spells at level 10, though we where playing mythic.
And by another token, having a party that was so adamant about optimizing their own builds may suggest they're not interested in the part of the campaign that is "challenging encounters"
Perhaps they built their party so that the combat part of the campaign would be a cakewalk... Check and see if the characters feel like the fact that the combats are so easy is even having a negative effect on their attitudes... Are they getting bored? No? Then you don't have to change a thing. If you were interested in hearing from experienced gms about good tactics to challenge the particular party you're running for, it might be helpful to hear about the builds and tactics that are wreaking such havok... Adjusting stat blocks and numbers of opponents may not be the answer. It might just involve the enemies making some more tactically relevant decisions, or may involve fun unexpected things...
For example the party might be able to trounce an assault on a town by a band of giants and dragons, to pick a possible encounter at random... but what if the dragon or the giants pick up a young child... make way or the kid gets it!
Suddenly the encounter is a hostage situation that turns into a rescue operation instead of simply being a slugfest cagematch... Heck. Even if the fight is a slugfest cagematch and the players win it handily, take a lesson from the very first goblin assault on sandpoint.... the point of it was to distract the party from what was actually going on in the graveyard... A party can't be everywhere at once. Sometimes winning is *also* losing. Rarely is 'I won the fight' the sole descriptor of 'I won the day' and RotRL does a pretty good job of throwing that kinda stuff in...
Level 11 is 7 good save, 3 bad saves. +5 in ability score bonus, +5 cloak (which is cheap for what it does and a high priority item), +1 traited. That is without use of feats or misc bonuses. Add in feats and other bonuses and you can get there.
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Level 11 is 7 good save, 3 bad saves. +5 in ability score bonus, +5 cloak (which is cheap for what it does and a high priority item), +1 traited. That is without use of feats or misc bonuses. Add in feats and other bonuses and you can get there.
Yes, you can.
If the party all has 20 Con and Wis,.maximal items, and those traits...something is HORRIBLY wrong.
All good saves?
That is very high for some of them; although I am finding the archer/spellcasters a bit high (ex-paladins loose divine grace as far as I remember, but I could be wrong). Otherwise, listen to vincent takedas advice; if they dont want challenging combat, well they wont like being ultra-challenged.
Still, those saves are eerily high, i've never managed to get them that high in theorycrafting (although I never consider buffs). Might be interested in a full build of your barb/druid/monk.
Honestly the party looks about right for that level. Not particularly crazy or anything. The problem really lies in that APs are built with 15 point buy low optimization in mind. Look at the 15 point buy pregens and look at the steaming pile of poor build decisions and you will understand why your party which knows about good options for the most part is blowing through the AP.
Rise, while revamped, isn't exactly the most dangerous or powerful AP either. If you want challenging combats some other APs might be a little better fitting. Heck Reign of Winter the other day the "tank"fighter took 170 damage in one round because he made a miscalculation in how strong 3 enemies were in Rasputin must die (14th level at the time). Combat still only took 2 rounds with the PCs victorious, but it was a hard fight with little margin for error.
Yeah. If your characters are on appropriate level for the AP, they're either on their way to Jorgenfist, at Jorgenfist or Under Jorgenfist... Unless they purposefully are making tactical decisions to avoid the craziness surrounding jorgenfist, a bold party that thinks they can wreak havok is going to face down over 100 stone giants at once. I don't care how they're built that's way above their pay grade... There's just some things a good build can't compensate for and the giants have ranged attack till the cows come home... The party's ranged tactic should not be a huge advantage in these fights.
On the other hand you'll see the entire jorgenfist encounter is pretty much an even match for them or *significantly easier* for the most part until you get to mokmurian, and by the time they get to him he'll probably only be cr+2 as written. For this party thats a cakewalk. But that's only if you break it up in to nice digestable chunks. If the party is bold and brazen Mokmurian has every excuse to bring his whole force to bear on the party at once. Is the dragon still alive?
The best way to make things more difficult is jacking up the cr of the opponent by adding numbers to their ranks and playing them smarter. Stop fighting the party on its own terms... Have enemies that retreat to include enemies from adjoining areas, and when the fights aren't goig their way, let them do things that make sense like use geurilla tactics, taking cover... 12 stone giants at once is considered a cr+4 for this party, and if they can handle that with ease maybe its time to recommend they dial it down... Make sure you're playing the enemy up to par with its own stat block... Stone giants get point blank and precise and quickdraw with 180 foot range. And if they're not being sneaky about their approach Mokmurian will be happy to send out a superior force. He's got a lot of giants to work with. Assaulting him on his home turf well supplied and ready for battle and knowing they're coming shouldn't be a cakewalk for a band of 11's no matter how 'built' they are. If they can handle 16 stone giants at once then they're breezing through CR+5 encounters and making any fight challenging for them is going to involve flat out replacing every encounter with a cr at least 5 higher than what's published. That's a lot of work.
All of that said... Reading the encounters from that chapter it's *written* with CR7 and 8 kinda fights mostly... for a group of 11's each fight on its own is *supposed* to be CR-3... A cakewalk. Because there's really no safe place to rest in Jorgenfist. Or there shouldn't be. The fights are written to be easy because there's little opportunity in the way of 15 minute workdays here and the more havok the party is wreaking, the more this high alert stronghold full of a hundred giants is going to be on.... higher alert. If the party is being stealthy and taking advantage of teleportation magic and 15 minute workdays then there is nothing written in the pages of the AP that is going to hold a candle to them.
But if they ARE doing 15 minute workdays? They're *telling* you with their actions they don't want to be challenged. No matter what they tell you with their words.
But if they ARE doing 15 minute workdays? They're *telling* you with their actions they don't want to be challenged. No matter what they tell you with their words.
Or they're role-playing characters who wouldn't take foolish risks for no good reason.
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@Byrhtnoth
Hey fellow RoTR GM,
I struggled much in the same way as you did until I managed to be a better tactician and learned what to expect from each encounter. There is however bunch of things that you can do to make encounters harder without really adjusting CR much, some that other people already pointed out very good;
a) Play active not passive!
Like others suggested, enemies are not meat puppets that passively stand in a single room waiting to be knocked out by pesky adventurers. Assaulting any room for example at stone giant fortress can raise alarm in a blink of eye. Rooms are typically away 30-50 ft. max, that's not higher then DC 20 Perception to hear what's going on.
Suggestion: Combine encounters if party is reckless, Combine encounters with traps
b) Play BBEGs active not passive!
If any BBEG knows that party is assaulting his stronghold, he will take appropriate steps to fortify it further. How does this happen? It happens in form of traps and additional troops. If a party only scratches into the "dungeon" and falls back, this is a mistake. They just granted BBEG a chance to observe them further, prepare themselves further and jack up his army of death.
Suggestion: Reprepare better spells, Add more mooks, Use defensive spells to prepare BBEG such as Alarm.
c) Your enemy are buffs not party's stat block!
This is true in 80% of cases. PC's can be powerful, but buffs are what makes them temporarily godlike. My party used Good Hope, Haste, Bard Song, Resist Energy Communal and around 1-2 more team buffs, not including five other single target buffs that they individually casted on themselves. There is simply no BBEG that can provide much challenge against this unless it's CR +5.
Suggestion: Wore down the party with encounters (this is already kind of done in AP), Add Dispel traps (don't do this often)
That's about it at the moment. Most of this people already recommended tho.
Malag
But if they ARE doing 15 minute workdays? They're *telling* you with their actions they don't want to be challenged. No matter what they tell you with their words.Or they're role-playing characters who wouldn't take foolish risks for no good reason.
I agree with what you say up until the point where the party says they *like* to or *prefer* to be challenged... 15 minute workday is *mutually exclusive* to being challenged.
A guy who says he likes to be challenged and then runs the 15 minute workday alpha strike manoever is what the racing community likes to call 'trawling for obtainable wins'.
He doesnt actually want a challenge. He's the guy who drops a comptech supercharger in an s2000. if he sees a z06 or a mustang with a gt or cobra emblem and a straight stretch of road he'll be all cool and respectable, but the second you put him next to a corvette of the 90's or earlier or a mustang with a v6 emblem instead and a road full of twisties, switchbacks and chicanes... suddenly he turns his baseball cap backwards and is all 'lets see what you got'... 'feelin froggy? throw down!'
He wants to go home and tell his friends he can beat corvettes and mustangs with his s2000. but not the one's his car couldn't beat easily already. He never expected you to stand a chance or he never would have challenged in the first place.
He's the guy who rolls up with a dog eared beaten down 69 oldsmobile 442 that he's drag tuned and overbored by .40 and only challenges people who have newer cars that he knows for sure are bone stock. He doesnt do what he should do and challenge someone who stands a chance. He's not looking for a challenge.
'Obtainable wins.'
Trailing by one or two levels is the low-effort way to handle this. I trailed by two for much of Runelords, but I was doing it to balance out the 3.5->PF conversion. They closed the gap really quick in Part 6, mainly because the hardcover came out.
So ditch XP or switch to a slower track, and try to get a level or two lead on the PCs.
A guy who says he likes to be challenged and then runs the 15 minute workday alpha strike manoever is what the racing community likes to call 'trawling for obtainable wins'.
He doesnt actually want a challenge.
Some players want the challenge to be external, not one they create for themselves by using sub-optimal strategy. Like a race driver with a fast car who is looking for a worthy opponent. He doesn't want to hear, "Why don't you buy a slower car?" (game equivalent - make a poorly optimized character), or "Why don't you give your rivals a couple of seconds' head start?" (game equivalent: don't make use of your magic powers to control the situation).
I'm not that sort of player. I like to be confident of surviving a campaign. But as GM I've asked my players if they want 'hard mode', and given it to them, and they appreciated it.
A guy who says he likes to be challenged and then runs the 15 minute workday alpha strike manoever is what the racing community likes to call 'trawling for obtainable wins'.
He doesnt actually want a challenge.
Some players want the challenge to be external, not one they create for themselves by using sub-optimal strategy. Like a race driver with a fast car who is looking for a worthy opponent. He doesn't want to hear, "Why don't you buy a slower car?" (game equivalent - make a poorly optimized character), or "Why don't you give your rivals a couple of seconds' head start?" (game equivalent: don't make use of your magic powers to control the situation).
I'm not that sort of player. I like to be confident of surviving a campaign. But as GM I've asked my players if they want 'hard mode', and given it to them, and they appreciated it.
So what you're saying is some players like to feel like a race car driver and like to play rough with the big boys so they can say they do and say they did, but gotta have a safe word to make sure they don't get proper f[censored]d. I mean spanked. No I get it. It's coo. Thats... Very smart... Perfectly natural response... There's no such thing as wrongbadfun and hey... If that's what they're into... wink wink, nudge nudge. saynomore saynomore... what's it like? I'm still not gonna call it 'truly challenging'
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I'm having similar challenges with my Jade Regent AP. We spent the entirety of book 4 with me tinkering with the difficulty and rebuilding every encounter. It takes a lot more time on my part, and the sessions suffer if I don't have enough time to prepare properly.
Challenge Ratings (CR) have pretty much flown out the window. I have to consider what I'm confident that they are capable of handling and adjust my concept from there. It is not uncommon for them to tackle an encounter that is CR APL+4 and to absolutely destroy it.
Going into book 5 I look forward to solidifying an approach and hopefully by book 6 there won't be any snags. High level play only makes the situation more complex. It takes time and I've come to terms.
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The only thing that I can really suggest is to be proactive. Casters unless there is reason should all buffed before the beginning of fight. Manipulator/assassin type of villains should be using traps, deceiving the pcs even pretending to be one of their friends/allies and betray them when they are fighting an enemy, succubus and glabrezu do that excellently.
Brutes should go for the weakest party members/casters and pound on them until they die and even escape if they can. Don't have them just attack the fighters/melee guys.
Make Ambush, increase the stakes, take hostages, have surprise attacks, like they just got out of a dungeon, they are tired and have used all their resources, a dragon is waiting for them (something that would be a hard fight for them normally at full resource) and essentially rob them of their loot by intimidating them.
Essentially just don't play the same way, increase the danger put more stuffs on the battlefields, hazards etc...essentially you are trying to find the sweet spot of the kind of danger that your party can handle.
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Also, one more note!
Combat Maneuvers are awesome to use with giants. It adds bunch of flavor in combat and acknowledges their true muscle strength! Beware tho, if your party is very low on CMD and enough giants surround them, it can be true chaos for them.
Sunder - can be deadly for plate and weapon users. Any giant can make short work of a weapon or armor if he hits a few times. Do grant players a chance to repair their weapons tho, even if destroyed. I explained to mine players that they should view Sunder as a debuff or penalty until they fix them again.
Disarm - what's more to say? Remove a weapon and stop those deadly full-round attacks.
Trip - Use on AoO and deny players entire round of actions or use it instead of single attack to grant players all forms of trouble.
Do note that all three of these CMB checks are instead of attack, so that giants do not waste entire round for nothing.
That's about it!
Have fun.
Malag