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Instead of going the Big Dumb Fighter route, lets discuss the Smart Handsome one, aka the duelist! No need to dump int anymore, and what is cooler than walking around on the battlefield with finesse and style?
Lets discuss the duelist PrC, his advantages and weakness, and make some optimised builds for fun! The duelist is an awesome class, and I bet we can build some great ideas around it.
I'll start by giving a sample build at level 12, 20 point buy:
Human Fighter (Lore Warden) 6/Duelist 6
Reactionary, Indomitable Faith
Init +11, Senses Perception +17
Str 10, Dex 20/24, Con 12, Int 14/16, Wis 14, Cha 10
HP: 12d10 +12
AC: 33 (10 +3 armor, +7 dex, +1 natural, +2 deflect, +3 dodge, +3 fighting defensively, +4 Combat Expertise )
Touch: 29; FF: 16
Saves: Fortitude +10, Reflex +15, Will +8
BAB +12; CMB +17 (28 to trip); CMD 31
Rapier +20/+15/+10 (1d6+19, 15-20/x2) [-1 fighting defensively, -4 combat expertise]
Feats (F=Fighter, H=Human, LW=Lore Warden):
1- Dodge, F:Weapon Finesse, H:Improved Unarmed Strike
2- F:Crane Style, LW: Combat Expertise
3- Mobility
4- F: Improved Trip
5- Crane Wing
6- F: Fury's Fall
7- Greater Trip
9- Crane Riposte
11-Critical Focus
13-Staggering Critical
15-Weapon Focus
17-Stunning Critical
18-F:Greater Weapon Focus
19-Iron Will
20-F:Weapon Specialization
Traits:
Reactionary (+2 Init)
Indomitable Faith (+1 Will save)
Skills:
Perception 17 (12 ranks)
Sense Motive 15 (10 ranks)
Use Magic Device 12*
Acrobatics 22 (12 ranks)
Knowledge Arcana 18 (12 ranks)
Knowledge Nature 18 (12 ranks)
Knowledge Religion 18 (12 ranks)
Knowledge History 18 (12 ranks)
Climb 4 (1 rank)
Swim 4 (1 rank)
*Headband of Int
Equipment: Belt of Dex +4, Headband of Int +2, +3 Agile Keen Rapier, Cloak of Resistance +1, Ring of Protection +2, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Bracers of Armor +3, Gloves of Dueling
With this build the duelist get some pretty good defenses, he can parry two attacks per round and get an AOO at each of them, plus he can trip his opponent, granting an AOO for him and everyone around.
Honestly, crane riposte synergizes so well with duelist that I think its a must have in any build of him. Parry and AOO against two attacks is just too good to pass.
Now, lets start the duelist discussions!
Aldori Swordlord PrC is a better duelist then the duelist IMO.
I wouldnt quite agree with that. The duelists synergy with crane riposte makes him one of the strongest duelers out there, being able not only to have good defenses, but also parrying up to two attacks per round, getting an AOO at each of those. A common fighter, for example, would slowly get beaten down against this type of duelist in a 1v1, which, in my opinion, is where he excels the most.
Edit: by the way, the weapon finesse in my build applies to trip attempts already, so fury's fall can be traded out for something like weapon focus for +1 to hit. (that is, unless WF and Fury fall stacks.)
I also disagree that the Swordlord is a better duellist. He's a very different duellist, and often duellist is a better swordlord than a swordlord - for a dex-focused combatant who wants to use a duelling sword, the Aldori Swordlord PrC is a one-level dip before going into Duellist full time.
Bloody hell. I just lost the huge edit I did on my previous comment. I'm disinclined to type it out in full again. But an Urban Savage Barbarian 3 / Lore Warden 3 / Swordlord 1 / Duellist 5 makes for a pretty damned competent combatant. AC in the low thirties without having to fight defensively, +23/+18/+13 1d8+23 full attack with controlled rage and power attack going.
Bloody hell. I just lost the huge edit I did on my previous comment. I'm disinclined to type it out in full again. But an Urban Savage Barbarian 3 / Lore Warden 3 / Swordlord 1 / Duellist 5 makes for a pretty damned competent combatant. AC in the low thirties without having to fight defensively, +23/+18/+13 1d8+23 full attack with controlled rage and power attack going.
Too bad that you lost the edit. It does seems like a powerful build! I was also thinking about building something with 2 level dips into MoMS to combine snake and crane styles to use twf with rapier and unarmed strikes, but im not sure if the later would qualify for the precise strike of duelist. Maybe if he attacked with kicks instead of hands?
I'm going to throw something together; it'll either be fighter (lore warden) 6/MoMs 1/Swordlord (prc) 1/ Urban barbarian 2/Duelist 10 or fighter (lore warden) 5/MoMs 1/Swordlord (prc) 1/ Urban barbarian 1/ shadowdancer 2/ Duelist 10. The 2 level urb barb dip is for uncanny dodge, while the shadowdancer dip would be for uncanny dodge, evasion, hide in plain sight & darkvision.
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Ok, here's a basic build. It's extremely similar to my paragon swordlord build, with sllightly more damage but slightly less AC:
Lore warden
1 EWP (dueling sword), Weapon Finesse, Dodge
MoMs
2 Crane style
Lore Warden
3 Weapon Focus (dueling sword), Dazzling Display
4
5 Combat Reflexes, Mobility
Swordlord (PrC)
6 Dueling mastery
Urban barbarian
7 Crane Wing
Lore Warden
8
Duelist
9 Crane Riposte
10
Shadowdancer
11 Iron Will
12
Duelist
13 Improved critical (dueling sword)
At the moment, it looks to haven good defense, good attack & decent damage (though not as much as a barbarian or pure fighter). At the very least, they cant be caught flat-footed, they get darkvision, and can fight defensively well.
Or you could just take Improved Unarmed Strike and not interrupt your level progression.
Well, MoMs has the advantage of giving you fuse style & a free style feat. I'm not going for that, but I could shuffle things around and get an extra BaB. Though the extra on saves is also good for anyone.
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Okay, I layed out the build again.
Human Urban Savage Barbarian 3 / Lore Warden 3 / Swordlord 1 / Duelist 5
Berserker of the Society, Heirloom Weapon (Disarm)
Init +11, Perception +16
S:13 D:22 C:16 I:16 W:12 C:10
Controlled Rage can be used to either add 6 Dex (4+2 from weapon) or 4 each to Dex and Con.
HP 119 (3d12+9d10+36+3FCB)
AC 30 (10 +3 Armour +2 Shield +6 Dex +2 Nat +5 Dodge, +2 Deflection)
Fort: +15 Reflex: +18 Will: +11
BAB:12 CMB:15; 18 trip or sunder; 22 disarm CMD:36; 38 vs. disarm
AC, Reflex, CMB and CMD will all go up by two or three when raging. HP and Fort save as well.
Duelling Sword: +21/+16/+11 1d8+13 normal
Power Attack, Raging (split between Dex & Con): +20/+15/+10 1d8+24
Barb 3 / Ftr 2 / AS 1 / Duelist 2 / Ftr +1 / Duelist +3
1: Weapon Finesse, EWP (ADS)
3: Weapon Focus (ADS)
F1: Dodge
F2: Mobility, Combat Expertise
5: Dazzling Display
AS1: Aldori Dueling Mastery
7: Power Attack
9: Improved Disarm
11: Iron Will
D4: Combat Reflexes
Skills:
Acrobatics +21 (12 ranks)
Escape Artist +21 (12 ranks)
Intimidate +15 (12 ranks)
Know (all) +7 (1 rank each)
Know (local, nobles) +9 (3 ranks each)
Perception +16 (12 ranks)
Perform (dance) +5 (2 ranks)
Sense Motive +13 (9 ranks)
UMD +12 (headband)
Appraise, Bluff, Climb, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Ride, Spellcraft, Survival, Swim (1 rank each)
Equipment: +2 Courageous Furious Aldori Duelling Sword, Amulet of NA +2, Belt of Physical Might (Dex + Con) +2, Boots of Speed, Bracers of Armour +3, Cloak of Reistance +4, Headband of Mental Prowess (Int + Wis) +2, Ring of Protection +2
Thanks zanthrax! You've given me some good ideas.
I like those builds you posted guys, zanthrax got some cool balance between defense/offense too! Probably tomorrow I'll be posting another build with twf and unarmed strikes, assuming kicks works with the precise strike from duelist.
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Well, I've finished my build. It's similar to zanthrax's build, but it's slightly more defensive. It has excellent AC, to hit, less interesting damage though... I've built if up to level 13. It's not completely finished, and I might of made a mistake.
I've even built up a story about how they passed from lawful to neutral, so as to allow the urban barbarian & monk. Dissapointment with the sense of honor of others. Also made her pass to stealth.
Well, I've finished my build. It's similar to zanthrax's build, but it's slightly more defensive. It has excellent AC, to hit, less interesting damage though... I've built if up to level 13. It's not completely finished, and I might of made a mistake.
I've even built up a story about how they passed from lawful to neutral, so as to allow the urban barbarian & monk. Dissapointment with the sense of honor of others. Also made her pass to stealth.
Thats pretty good, I liked your build! Dips in multiple classes is proving to be very effective for a duelist, I didnt thought about that before. Gotta play around with some ideas too!
Well, when I go for a prestige class, I I can find a good dip, I will. The best dips I've seen so far are:
1) Monk: a bonus feat, abonus to ALL saves & wis to AC while nude? Worth it for a lot of less armored builds.
2) Urban barbarian: this is a recent (IE tonight) discovery: coherent rage is a SUPER-flexible ability. Worth having.
3) Shadowdancer: a lot of "light-amror" builds require dodge, combat reflexes & mobility anyway, so it's an easy way to get darkvision, hide in plain sight, uncanny dodge and evasion.
The only problem I have is that my builds end to have poor damage & HP...
There's a few ways to get a monk into Duellist. Boar Ferocity, Snake Style or Hamatulatsu can all give you piercing damage for unarmed strike. The first two are even society legal.
I'm liking the idea of monk straight into duelist. Get INT to damage on every hit in a flurry.
I agree that actually sounds really cool.
I've a martial artist character build sitting in my "possible future characters" folder, but it's probably not the best choice since it's the only monk that can't also be a Qinggong monk.
Master of Many Styles with the ability to take two style feats at once is probably the best place to start; you're going to have to use either Snake or Boar style just to get into Duelist, and Crane style works very nicely for a Duelist, so why not have both going at once? (Kirin style may have some appeal to a Duellist as well, since Duellists directly benefit from high Int. Potentially useful as a third style to fuse at MoMS level 8.)
Monk of the Sacred Mountain and Hungry Ghost could both be worth adding to the MoMS. Qinggong should pretty much be added to every monk (except a Martial Artist who has no ki to power the abilities)
Sorry if I'm missing something obvious, but how are you adding Intelligence to damage with the Duelist?
The only addition to damage I'm seeing is this:
Precise Strike (Ex): A duelist gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, adding her duelist level to her damage roll.
The other two monk duelist builds that come to mind are a dervish dancing light armour wearing Sohei. This has the advantage of being able to minimise MAD as wisdom is no longer especially important. This has the disadvantage of wasted mount related abilities and not really feeling all that monkish.
The second possibility is a Flowing Monk of the Sacred Mountain. He's basically a judo master who just stands still and beasts the hell out of any enemies who try anything. This has the disadvantage of not working as well against any enemy that isn't stupid enough to get closer to him.
In either case, I think it's best to go all the way to level 8 monk before switching to duelist to get two extra flurry attacks. Which limits them a bit for society play as they'll only reach Duelist 4.
Sorry if I'm missing something obvious, but how are you adding Intelligence to damage with the Duelist?
The only addition to damage I'm seeing is this:
Precise Strike (Ex): A duelist gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, adding her duelist level to her damage roll.
You're right, it's just the AC bonus that's limited to Int bonus, not the damage. Since they're both limited by the class level they're frequently confused. I know I keep making the same mistake.
You're right, it's just the AC bonus that's limited to Int bonus, not the damage. Since they're both limited by the class level they're frequently confused. I know I keep making the same mistake.Sorry if I'm missing something obvious, but how are you adding Intelligence to damage with the Duelist?
The only addition to damage I'm seeing is this:
Precise Strike (Ex): A duelist gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, adding her duelist level to her damage roll.
Ah! Okay. I'll go back to lurking and sponging off all your ideas.
Well, I've finished my build. It's similar to zanthrax's build, but it's slightly more defensive. It has excellent AC, to hit, less interesting damage though... I've built if up to level 13. It's not completely finished, and I might of made a mistake.
I've even built up a story about how they passed from lawful to neutral, so as to allow the urban barbarian & monk. Dissapointment with the sense of honor of others. Also made her pass to stealth.
I love this build, I've been trying to make a halfling duelist work forever ago, before giving up. you've brought back some of that hope.
Minor nitpick, you have 2 items in the belt slot. I'm guessing you're just going for the +4dex/+2 con belt right?
Yes, I noticed the doubling up of the belt slot too, it's problematic, but It could be done (for more cash).
In the end, this isnt my favorite "duelist" build. I've got another (swordlord PrC) that does a very similar multiclassing for about the same strengths/weaknesses but for even greater AC.
Still, this is the best i'm able to get from the duelist.
Look at that guys, just made a defensive AOO monster machine:
level 12, 20 point buy:
Human Fighter (Lore Warden) 5/MoMS 2/Duelist 5 (take MoMS at levels 3 and 5)
Reactionary, Indomitable Faith
Init +11, Senses Perception +18
Str 10, Dex 20/24, Con 12, Int 14/16, Wis 14/16, Cha 10
HP: 10d10+2d8 +12
AC: 37 (10 +3 armor, +7 dex, +3 wis, +1 natural, +2 deflect, +4 dodge, +3 fighting defensively, +3 Combat Expertise, +1 insight)
Touch: 33; FF: 17
Saves: Fortitude +12, Reflex +18, Will +12
BAB +11; CMB +16 (27 to trip); CMD 35
Unarmed Strike (full defense) +18/+18/+13/+13/+8 (1d6+11, 20/x2) [-1 fighting defensively, -3 combat expertise]
Unarmed Strike (normal) +22/+22/+17/+17/+12 (1d6+11, 20/x2)
Feats (F=Fighter, H=Human, LW=Lore Warden, M:Monk):
1- Dodge, F:Weapon Finesse, H:Improved Trip
2- F: Mobility, LW: Combat Expertise
3- Crane Style, M: Crane Wing, M: IUS
5- Snake Style, M: Snake Fang
6- F: Two-Weapon Fighting
7- Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
9- Crane Riposte
11-Greater Trip
Traits:
Reactionary (+2 Init)
Indomitable Faith (+1 Will save)
Skills:
Perception 18 (12 ranks)
Sense Motive 16 (10 ranks)
Use Magic Device 12*
Acrobatics 22 (12 ranks)
Knowledge Arcana 18 (12 ranks)
Knowledge Nature 18 (12 ranks)
Knowledge Religion 18 (12 ranks)
Knowledge History 18 (12 ranks)
Climb 4 (1 rank)
Swim 4 (1 rank)
*Headband of Int
Equipment: Belt of Dex +4, Headband of Int and Wis +2, +3 Amulet of Mighty Fists, Cloak of Resistance +2, Ring of Protection +2, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Bracers of Armor +3, Gloves of Dueling, Ioun Stone (Dusty Rose Prism)
With this build, you can parry up to two attacks per round doing an AOO at each of them. If your opponent misses his attack (and with that ac he -will- miss), you get another AOO on him, and if you hit, you can use an immediate action to attack him AGAIN. As if this wasnt enough, you can trip him with one of those juicy AOOs, granting another AOO for you and nearby allies.
With this, you get some crazy high ac and very good saves (plus evasion), 5 attacks with nice bonus to hit (or decent to hit if you go full defense) and a lot of skills to contribute out of combat. I gotta say, im quite pleased with this result, took some time to build this fella here. Use main attacks to do piercing punching, off attacks to do some piercing kicking 'n headbuttin' (also to parry as duelist).
A little utility note on consumables: I've noticed that potions of reduce person are relatively useful to give your power a quick boost. Why?
1) While you average dice damage goes down by one (4.5-3.5), you get +1 to damage "flat", so less risk
2) Size boni: it's good to be small; +1 size AC, +1 to hit is always nice. The reduction in CMB/CMD is compensated by the increase in dex.
3) Cheap: 50 gp a pop isnt expensive for an adventurer after level 5. Heck, if you can get somebody else in the group to carry around a wand (or cast it for you) it's even better.
I wouldnt reccomend this strategy for small characters, since when you go down one size i believe your reach becomes 0.
@williamoak
I like your idea, maybe if we get a good bonus in UMD we could use those as wands, unless you have someone in the party who can use it for you. Wands of mage armor also sounds like a good idea if youre going for UMD.
@anarchitect
Going magus seems like a promising idea, if we buy some pearls of power we can get some serious shocking grasp spam there, but going just a few levels on the class wont give us enough casting level to use the common strategy of intensified shocking grasp, which will hurt the overall damage later on. Anyways, feel free to throw in some builds, so we can discuss them!
Note: A 4 level dip accompanied with the "magical knack" trait can at least allow you to have the normal "max damage" on shocking grasp. 5d6 aint huge, but it's a nice occasional damage booster. If you include frostbite, corrosive touch & chill touch, you can get some decent utility out of it to. Might try later.
2: The Swordlord PRC is "Dip this for one level to get get Dex to Damage, then go into the real Duelist class." That's it. Of course, if you really want to play a Swordlord, I have a Guide
The one thing that the Swordlord PrC is good at though, is taking apart Barbarians - their 5th level ability to shut off an enemy's morale bonuses means that the one guy the Barbarian build I posted above really doesn't want to deal with is a properly trained Swordlord.
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Im not very familiarized with the monk archetypes and swordlord, but williamoak and ZanThrax are pretty good at building duelists with those dips, so they can give you better advices than me.
That said, if theres an archetype like this you could use him to get in duelist and use a weapon, but you could also use unarmed strikes if you wanted to, only need snake style to make them piercing. I made a sample build using crane and snake styles, with 2 level dip on MoMS, if youre interested you can see how I went with the feats in there.
Any monk can flurry with monk weapons. If you want to flurry with anything else, you're stuck with Sohei and even then you have to get to level six before you get to choose a weapon group to flurry with.
Some people do believe you can substitue sohei weapon training with fighter weapon training.
"A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training."
This is highly arguable though, since "heavy blades" isnt in the normal permitted group, it could be considered HIHGLY cheesy. Still, basic FoB wouldnt be too bad, and the soheis replacement for stunning fist is pretty good, combined with this dude's high initiative.
By the way william, youre going to make a magus/duelist? Would like to see how one of those turns out! I'll probably post another maneuver focused duelist later on, too.
It seems reasonable to me for the sohei to flurry with a fighter weapon training to me - it's not possible to get it running until level 11 at the earliest anyhow. (Level 9 using Weapon Master but then it's only for a single weapon.) Which is what's led me to give up on the Dervish Dancing Sohei Duellist I mentioned earlier; it's not going to really get going until the low to mid teens. A dervish duellist still interests me, but I don't think monk's a good way to get there.
I also built the Dwarf Flowing Monk of the Sacred Mountain Duellist last night out of curiosity as well. It has significantly better defences than the Raging Duellist, but it's going to miss most of its attacks and only do around 2/3 the damage when it does hit. (Five attack flurry isn't really all that great when you have to roll a 12 or better to hit a CR-equal opponent.)
Razh, for a manoeuvre-focused Duellist, it might be worth looking at Student of War instead of / in addition to Duellist. They get a small scaling bonus that can be applied to manoeuvres, attack & damage, or AC & saves.
I also built the Dwarf Flowing Monk of the Sacred Mountain Duellist last night out of curiosity as well. It has significantly better defences than the Raging Duellist, but it's going to miss most of its attacks and only do around 2/3 the damage when it does hit. (Five attack flurry isn't really all that great when you have to roll a 12 or better to hit a CR-equal opponent.)
Indeed, the penalties with flurry can lower your chances to hit considerably withouth some other sourcers to get bonuses on attacks. But on the plus side, you can use your off hand attack to do the parry, while a single weapon user have to give up one of his main attacks to do it. Fighter with twf may be better in this case thanks to weapon training and gloves of dueling.
That seems interesting, ill check it out! I would probably take only as a dip though, its hard to beat the int to ac and parry mechanics of the duelist.
Oh boy... since I do all my builds by hand, it's pretty long. And I've gotten started on an urban barbarian dervish dancer build. Sorry, maybe another time. I'm really unsure how to make the best of it.
Oh boy... since I do all my builds by hand, it's pretty long. And I've gotten started on an urban barbarian dervish dancer build. Sorry, maybe another time. I'm really unsure how to make the best of it.
No problem! Tomorrow I'll also post my build once I figure out all the details. A disarm specialist seems interesting, and goes well with the flavor of the duelist too.
Cool. I'm rather leery of combat maneuver specialists because of the poor scaling with level. But I'll be interested in seeing what you get.
i'm still curious as to why folks are so interested in flurrying with something--you need at least 3 in WM fighter and 6 in sohei monk to flurry with your weapon of choice (unless it's a polearm or monk-class weapon, not to be confused with the monk weapon group, which has more that monks aren't allowed to use due to no support/erratas to add them to their proficiency list)
and to get the full deal out of flurry you need... 15 (or 8 if you only want 2 extras)? levels in monk. for two-weapon fighting (albeit maybe with a big sword, but it's all the same really).
thats a lot of levels invested for something that wont be all that good when you get it (9 levels for 1 extra attack--you could dip 2 in wild rager barbarian for the same thing--and at less of a penalty!).
if anyone could enlighten me of any major reasons that i've missed, please do so. I dont like thinking folks are crazy.